Mr. JENNER. I take it you had none; that is, any impressions as to his
interests?
Mr. THORNLEY. No, therefore, I had none; correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever play chess with him?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him playing chess with anyone else?
Mr. THORNLEY. Just now you mentioned the word "chess" as a definite
association; I think he did play chess. I can't place the person.
This--there were some other people in the outfit who played chess.
There is one name I have been trying to remember for a long time, and I
think it starts with "Win" something. "Winter" something. I'm probably
way off base there. But a tall blond corporal, I believe, played chess
and a couple of other men in the outfit played chess. At that time, I
guess at that, I knew how to play chess. I have never been particularly
interested, though, in the game so I don't--I am pretty sure I didn't
play chess with him.
In fact, come to think of it I had just been cured of playing chess 3
months before that; somebody beat me in about six moves and I stopped
playing for about a year. It wasn't me.
Mr. JENNER. While at El Toro did Oswald become engaged in any physical
altercations with anybody?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; definitely not to my knowledge. Never got into any
fights or even any hot personal argument over anything, that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, if you had one then, as to his
disposition in that regard?
Mr. THORNLEY. I had the impression that he avoided violence.
Mr. JENNER. While you were at El Toro do you recall whether Oswald ever
went off the base on liberty?
Mr. THORNLEY. As far as I know he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any discussions on the base as to what, if
anything, Oswald did?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, Oswald had done off the base on liberty?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of Cuba and Castro and that
problem?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right; tell us all about that.
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at that time I and Oswald were both, and a couple
of other men in the outfit, were quite sure that Castro was a great
hero.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he was liberating Cuba from Batista and, of course,
we had heard all about Batista and what an evil man he was, which I am
sure was true, and most of us had read some of the things written by
Castro, some of Castro's promises--such as he would take no part in the
government after the revolution, such things--so we had the definite
impression--I remember there was one Puerto Rican boy, myself, Oswald,
a couple of others who had quite an admiration for Castro, and thought
the pro-Communist statements he was or might be making at the time,
were made simply to guarantee a little more independence for his island
because it was located so close to the United States.
In other words, I felt at the time he was playing both ends against the
middle in order to go his own way, something like Charles de Gaulle
is doing right now by recognizing Red China. I felt it was purely
statesmanship, statecraft, power politics. I didn't feel that Castro
was a dedicated Communist. Whether Oswald did or not I don't know. He
admired Castro because of the social reforms Castro was introducing. So
did I at that time.
Delgado, the Puerto Rican boy, as I recall it, was becoming worried
at that time because he was beginning to think maybe Castro was
communistic. I didn't think so. Oswald, as far as I know, didn't have
anything to say on that matter. And that is about all I can tell you.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you say that you admired Castro and you knew Oswald
admired Castro. Tell us on what you base that comment.
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, once again as I remember, there was one of these
afternoon discussions once again, and somebody was saying something,
worried about Castro, it might have been Delgado, it might have been
somebody else, I don't think it was Delgado that day because I think
he was defending Castro, somebody said something against Castro, and
Oswald said that he didn't think Castro was so bad.
He thought Castro was good for Cuba, and they said why, and I took up
the argument, which was the argument I just gave you, the naive idea
I had at the time that he was playing for independence, and Oswald
remained silent, shaking his head affirmatively a couple of times, and
that was it.
Mr. JENNER. Shaking his head affirmatively with respect to the comments
you were making?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; to my argument, to my justification of Castro.
Mr. JENNER. But you recall no provocative remarks that he made in that
connection?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald have a nickname?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not that I know of except Oz sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit"?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, yes; I didn't realize that anybody else referred to
him as such but I always thought of him as such. He reminded me very
much of a cartoon character at that time. It was kind of pathetic.
There was something about this little smile of his, and his expression
on his face and the shape of his head, just the general, his general
appearance established a definite association in my mind with some
Warner Bros. cartoon character, I believe Warner Bros. And I, very
recently, in a discussion with someone, describing Oswald mentioned
that he reminded you of--I said: "I think there is a character called
Oswald Rabbit who appears in movie cartoons." And they shook their head.
Now, I know where I got that particular example so I probably heard him
referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit," though I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did he occasionally have a nickname or a reference made to
him attendant upon his interest in the study of the Russian language or
his interest in communism or in Russia or Soviet----
Mr. THORNLEY. Only he was sometimes called the Communist and he would,
sometimes I know--as far as his study of the Russian language went he
made no attempt to hide this.
In fact, he made--would make attempts to show it off by speaking a
little Russian.
Mr. JENNER. He was proud of that, was he?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there was someone else in the outfit who spoke
Russian, don't ask me who, they used to exchange a few comments in the
morning at muster and say hello to each other or something, and he also
would make jokes in Russian, not in Russian, but in English, in a thick
Russian accent many times; this was very typical of him.
Mr. JENNER. He resorted to that area and use of satire?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; until I had made the comment that implied he was a
Communist, I had no idea----
Mr. JENNER. That he was sensitive?
Mr. THORNLEY. That he was sensitive about it because he didn't seem to
be.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any visitors?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at anytime about the possibility
of his going to Russia?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. This was a complete surprise to you when you saw it in
Stars and Stripes?
Mr. THORNLEY. Somebody would say to him, "Why don't you go and live in
Russia," in the middle of an argument.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean that in that sense but did he volunteer a
statement on his part about his going to Russia?
Mr. THORNLEY. Never anything; no.
Mr. JENNER. I take it it was your opinion he was not a Communist at the
time he was assigned to El Toro?
Mr. THORNLEY. That was my opinion.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you have never seen or talked with Oswald
subsequent to the time he left or you left for Japan, from El Toro?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. That is, my statement is correct.
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It follows, I take it, that you were never aware that he
was in New Orleans when you were there?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of his comings and goings other than the
newspaper report that your folks sent you?
Mr. THORNLEY. I was aware that he had come back from the Soviet Union
and gone to Dallas, and I know I at that time did think about going
to see him in Dallas for the book, to find out just why he did go to
Russia, to check it with my own theory.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to get to that in due course.
Mr. THORNLEY. But aside from knowing that he came back and went to live
in Dallas with a Russian wife and a child I had no idea of his comings
or goings.
Mr. JENNER. At the time you had some notion of going to Dallas to see
him or Fort Worth, as the case might be, it was with respect to the
book you have talked about you were then in the process of writing or
fulminating about?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; it was practically--well, it was finished by that
time but I was thinking about, I was definitely planning to rewrite it.
I didn't know how soon, and I thought before I did rewrite it I would
go talk to him and see what he could tell me about. There were a lot of
gaps in the book, and in the book I was not able to explain how he got
from the United States to Russia and things like that. A lot of things
I wanted to check out and I thought if I could get him to cooperate
with me, perhaps not even in telling him I was writing the book, I
could get the information I wanted.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the state of mind you had after you had heard
that he returned to the United States?
Mr. THORNLEY. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Which was June of 1962, when he returned?
Mr. THORNLEY. Right, and I had finished the book in February.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. THORNLEY. 1962.
Mr. JENNER. 1962. You were in Mexico and Mexico City in 1963?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Cover that for us. What was the motivation, the length of
the trip?
Mr. THORNLEY. I will have to begin at the beginning on that. On April
17, my parents sent me a gift of $100 on the condition that I spend it
for a bus ticket to visit them that summer. Which I did, and I left
around--well, I arrived in California on May 5. I remember going along
the border and seeing fireworks on the other side of the border.
Mr. JENNER. What border?
Mr. THORNLEY. From Yuma to San Diego.
Mr. JENNER. Mexican border?
Mr. THORNLEY. That is Cinco De Mayo. I arrived in California on May
5 and I stayed there until late August. Now, I think in one of these
reports that I gave to the FBI the information might be different.
Since then I have checked with notebooks that I kept of my activity,
and I was on my way back to New Orleans in late August. I went by way
of Mexico City because I have taken 5 years of Spanish in school and I
never had the opportunity to live in an environment where I would have
to use it, depend on it solely, and I wanted to see how I would do. I
have always wanted to visit Mexico, to see Mexico City. I checked into
the prices. I had found out I had enough money that I would be able to
go down to Mexico City and stay a short while.
So I went down there for about a week, actually it was 6 days I spent
within Mexico, from Tijuana to Mexico City, on a Mexican bus, and
then when my money began to run out from Mexico City to Matamoros or
Brownsville, Tex., on a Mexican bus.
At this time, on my way up on a bus to Matamoros, it was September 2,
because I had that in my notes, I have some notes about the bus ride
and the date September 2.
And I went from Brownsville to New Orleans by way of either Greyhound
or Continental.
Mr. JENNER. When did you arrive in New Orleans?
Mr. THORNLEY. I went directly to New Orleans, so I imagine I arrived in
New Orleans on September 3, possibly September 4.
Mr. JENNER. So that between approximately May 1, 1963, and September 4
and 5----
Mr. THORNLEY. Say May 3 to September 4.
Mr. JENNER. You were not in New Orleans?
Mr. THORNLEY. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed
there for approximately a month or so?
Mr. THORNLEY. Longer than that.
Mr. JENNER. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and
you then returned directly to New Orleans?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During none of that period of time did you have any contact
with or hear anything about Oswald?
Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not.
Mr. JENNER. You at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the
name of Sylvia Bortin?
Mr. THORNLEY. Sylvia Bortin?
Mr. JENNER. B-o-r-t-i-n.