Mr. THORNLEY. No; I don't think he expected things to develop within
his lifetime. I am sure that he didn't. He just wanted to be on the
winning side for all eternity.
Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that that was in terms of
selflessness? That he thought also in terms that Lee Harvey Oswald
would be associated with this forward thinking?
Mr. THORNLEY. Right. He was concerned with his image in history and I
do think that is why he chose once again, once again why he chose the
particular method he chose and did it in the way he did. It got him
in the newspapers. It did broadcast his name out. I think he probably
expected the Russians to accept him on a much higher--in a much higher
capacity than they did.
I think he expected them to, in his own dreams, to invite him to take a
position in their government, possibly as a technician, and I think he
then felt that he could go out into the world, into the Communist world
and distinguish himself and work his way up into the party, perhaps. He
was definitely----
Mr. JENNER. Did it have to be the Communist world or could it be any
world that he saw projected into the future?
Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely.
Mr. JENNER. And as you put it this, in your opinion, had become a
religion with him.
Mr. THORNLEY. Much more than he himself realized even though he called
it his religion.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression there was a personal
selflessness, that is a--I will put it in terms of disregard or rather
this way--that as far as his physical person was concerned, he wasn't
concerned about life in the sense that he wanted to continue to
maintain life in his body?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; I think he wanted physical happiness. I think this
is why he didn't do something like just join the Communist Party.
I believe he felt that was dangerous. I think he wanted to live
comfortably. But I think if it came to a choice between the two, or
to put it this way, more relevant to events that developed later, I
think if it became to his mind impossible for him to have this degree
of physical comfort that he expected or sought, I think he would then
throw himself entirely on the other thing he also wanted, which was the
image in history.
I don't think that--I think he wanted both if he could have them. If he
didn't, he wanted to die with the knowledge that, or with the idea that
he was somebody.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression at any time that he, in turn,
embraced a realization that he was lacking in ability to accomplish the
former, that is, personal comfort and status, that is that he felt that
there was a lack of ability, capacity, training, education on his part?
Mr. THORNLEY. When I knew him, I don't think he had the vaguest thought
in that direction. I do definitely, of course, based solely upon what
I have read in the newspapers, think he came to that moment, after
returning to the United States from the Soviet Union. I think he was
getting panicky.
Mr. JENNER. In our discussion you can see it is important to me
to obtain your thinking, uninfluenced to the extent you can do it
by subsequent events. Of course complete lack of influence is not
possible, but I am seeking your views as to your state of mind prior to
November 22.
Mr. THORNLEY. All right. I would say that prior to November 22, I felt
that he had gradually become disillusioned with the United States for
many reasons, at the bottom was also his conviction, well, in fact,
his disillusionment with the United States in the Far East probably
contributed to some extent to his conviction that the Communists would
eventually prevail, the Communist culture would eventually prevail in
the world, and I then had the feeling that he certainly--I thought he
would probably stay in Russia, for example, forever.
I didn't know what he was doing there. I realized from what I read at
that time that he was not--he did not have Russian citizenship. He was
staying there as an immigrant. I expected him probably to adjust to
Russian life and that would be the last that the Western World would
ever hear of Oswald.
Everything Oswald has ever done has surprised me.
Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that.
Mr. THORNLEY. When I knew him and since I knew him, when I knew him I
was surprised when he was offended at my statement about the coming
of the revolution that Saturday morning. I was surprised when I read
in the papers overseas that he had gone to the Soviet Union. I was
surprised when he came back. And I was entirely caught unaware when it
turned out that he was involved in the assassination, to such an extent
that for some time afterwards, I thought he was innocent.
Mr. JENNER. Why were you surprised when he came back and tell us before
you do that where were you and how did you find out about it.
Mr. THORNLEY. I was in New Orleans. My parents sent me an article from
the Los Angeles Times about it. The reason I was surprised at his
coming back was as I said before, I just expected that would be the
last I would hear of him. I fully expected him to adjust to Soviet
life. I thought what he--at that time I thought what he probably
lacked in the Marine Corps was any sympathy for the overall purpose of
the Marine Corps. Whereas he certainly had sympathy for the overall
purpose of the Soviet Government, so I don't think he would mind the
restrictions imposed on him, as he resented them in the Marine Corps.
I did not expect him to become disillusioned, certainly, with
the Soviet Union. I am not, of course, sure that he did become
disillusioned with it. It just seemed unlike him to come back to this
country when he said he would never live in either as a capitalist or
as a worker.
Mr. JENNER. When did he say that?
Mr. THORNLEY. He said that at a press conference in Moscow according to
the papers.
Mr. JENNER. This was something you read in the Stars and Stripes?
Mr. THORNLEY. I don't know whether I read this in the Stars and
Stripes or whether I read this--I certainly read it when he came back
from Russia, I remember. It was in the article from the Times my
folks sent me. Said when he had left for the Soviet Union he had said
such-and-such, quote.
Mr. JENNER. You said you did not expect him to become disillusioned
with Soviet Russia. Was it your impression at any time, take the
several stages, that he had a conviction with respect to any form of
political philosophy or government?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he did definitely always before and after have a
Marxist bias. From anything that has come to me, that has never--I have
never reason--never had reason to doubt that.
Mr. JENNER. That, you think, was a conviction?
Mr. THORNLEY. I think that was an irrevocable conviction, you might say.
Mr. JENNER. You do not think it was not merely a theoretical concept
which he used for argumentation?
Mr. THORNLEY. Let me put it this way. I think you could sit down and
argue with him for a number of years in a great marathon argument
and have piles of facts and I don't think you could have changed his
mind on that unless you knew why he believed it in the first place. I
certainly don't. I don't think with any kind of formal argument you
could have shaken that conviction. And that is why I say irrevocable.
It was just--never getting back to looking at things from any other way
once he had become a Marxist, whenever that was.
Mr. JENNER. Was he able to articulate distinctions between Marxism,
communism, capitalism, democracy?
Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I knew him and argued with him he didn't
bother to articulate distinctions between Marxism and communism. At a
latter time I understand he did.
Mr. JENNER. He attempted to.
Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I knew his communism was the modern, living
vicar of Marxism, period.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in New Orleans when he was arrested for
distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets?
Mr. THORNLEY. I arrived in New Orleans in the early part of September.
If I was in New Orleans----
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This occurred in August of 1963.
Mr. THORNLEY. Then I wasn't there; no.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about it?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't. I didn't hear about it until after the
assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any of those tapes?
Mr. THORNLEY. I heard part of one of them after the assassination, once
again.
Mr. JENNER. Did that part include his effort to distinguish between
Marxism and democracy in response to a question put to him by either
Mr. Stuckey or one of the other participants?
Mr. THORNLEY. That is exactly what he was talking about at the time. I
happened to be standing in the television station in New Orleans and he
was saying, and I just got a snatch of it, I was passing through the
room or something; and he was saying, "Well, there are many Marxist
countries in the world today."
Mr. JENNER. This was by way of his answering a question as to what was
the distinction between Marxism and communism?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; he was saying there are many non-Communist Marxist
countries in the world today and he was definitely making a distinction
between Marxism and communism.
Mr. JENNER. But all he did was to cite the countries. He didn't attempt
to make the distinction.
Mr. THORNLEY. It was only a snatch of it.
Mr. JENNER. That was a fair representation of his utterances during
those two radio broadcasts and one television broadcast. You mentioned
also that you had a feeling on his part that he was laboring under a
persecution complex?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was not necessarily based alone on the incident
you relate that occurred on that Saturday morning? Were there other
incidents?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there were many comments on his part about the walls
having ears, about--I think he felt the Marine Corps kept a pretty
close watch on him because of his "subversive" activities and, for that
reason in fact, I think he sought to keep himself convinced that he was
being watched and being pushed a little harder than anyone else.
I don't think he was consciously, perhaps not consciously, aware of the
fact that he went out of his way to get into trouble. I think it was
kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being picked on. It
wasn't anything extreme. I wouldn't go so far as to call it, call him a
paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that direction, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put it in terms that he had the feeling that he
was being unjustifiably put upon?
Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, always; yes. He was, in fact, you almost got the
feeling that he was--this was happening because of his defense. I mean
he was always speaking of the injustices which had been perpetrated
against him.
Mr. JENNER. Of his injustices as to him personally, different from the
treatment of others about him?
Mr. THORNLEY. To him personally; yes. Well, and it was the fact that he
had lost his clearance, and had gone out of his way to get into some
degree of trouble that went on to support this. For example, we would
stand at muster in the morning, and Sergeant Spar would call the roll
and he would say "Oswald" and Oswald would step out of the ranks and he
would send him off to mow the lawn or something.
Oswald did get special treatment. As I say, he had brought it on
himself but he made the most of it, too, as far as using it as a means
of getting or attempting to get sympathy.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what was the sergeant's name?
Mr. THORNLEY. Sergeant Spar.
Mr. JENNER. Spar. In using his name, I don't wish to, I am not
suggesting anything personal as to Sergeant Spar, but I am going to
use him as a faceless Marine sergeant.
Mr. THORNLEY. And a very good one.
Mr. JENNER. You marines, at least some of you, I assume, as had GI's
and others, you buttered up sergeants, too, didn't you, in order to
avoid being assigned too often to disagreeable tasks?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; you didn't have to. So long as you kept in line
and obeyed orders, you didn't have to--you weren't assigned any
disagreeable task in the kind of outfit I was in because there weren't
that many. When there was a disagreeable task to be done, it was
assigned to somebody who had stepped out of line and there were always
enough people who had stepped out of line and it was no problem to find
them. In fact, the problem was to find enough disagreeable tasks to go
around. The only exception to this would be overseas; a typhoon would
hit sometimes and then everybody would have to go out and we would have
to all, much to our dismay, wade around at 2 o'clock in the morning and
tear down tents and so on and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. That was a thing that was common to all of you.
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was not a disagreeable task in the sense we are talking
about.
Mr. THORNLEY. Right; and that was never necessary to have to butter
up that I can ever think of to a superior of any kind in order to get
exempted from anything.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you think Oswald was aware that all he had to be
was more tractable to the customs and practices of the Marine Corps
in which he was then living and he would not be assigned disagreeable
tasks more often than others?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, that is hard to say. I don't know whether he was
aware of that or not. I am not sure whether he permitted himself to be
aware of it. Maybe he was aware of it and maybe he couldn't help. He
had compulsions to do these things. Maybe he thought it was worth it
and maybe he didn't feel that he was being treated unjustly at all.
Maybe he just wanted everybody to think he felt he was being treated
unjustly, if you follow me.
Mr. JENNER. I do.
Mr. THORNLEY. It could have been any of these things. This--I think it
would take a good psychiatrist to find out which.
Mr. JENNER. You also used the expression that he strove to maintain the
status or milieu in which he had brought himself.
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I think this was possibly so. I think perhaps the
feeling of being persecuted was necessary to his self-esteem. This is,
I understand, a common thing, and it certainly fits in with everything
else I know about him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression that you have just expressed
at the time that you were associated with him in the Marines?
Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I was associated with him, I didn't have that
impression because I was too busy wondering just what it was. I used
to--I would see him doing something stupid, maybe a wisecrack to an
officer, for example, and I would say, "Well, doesn't the idiot know
that if he does that he is going to have to do this" and yet he would
resent his punishment.
Mr. JENNER. What would he do afterward?
Mr. THORNLEY. As if it had been thrust upon him for no reason
whatsoever, out of the blue.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was impulsive in that
respect, in the sense that sometimes he did things?
Mr. THORNLEY. He was definitely impulsive.
Mr. JENNER. That he had no control?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't know whether he had no control or whether
he would just do things without thinking. I think maybe he just let,
relaxed his controls once in a while, and why, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling he was impulsive?
Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, definitely.
Mr. JENNER. He acted on the spur of the moment?
Mr. THORNLEY. He was spontaneous, very much so. This was--I had this
impression the whole time I knew him.
Mr. JENNER. You did have the impression and I think you have mentioned
it several times, that he had an exaggerated, either mild or otherwise,
self-esteem.
Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't mention that that I recall. I did say that
I think maintaining the persecution complex was necessary for his
self-esteem and he was concerned very much with his image in history
but I don't think in the sense of being secure about his self-esteem; I
don't think he was either conceited, for example, egotistical, or just
plain confident. I don't think--I don't have any reason to believe that
he in his own eyes, had any reason to be proud of himself beyond the
average, at most.
Mr. JENNER. I wasn't thinking of self-esteem in that sense and I didn't
gather from your remark that you were thinking of it in that sense
either, but rather in the sense of self-esteem in his own eyes, not in
the sense of accomplishment or egoism.
Mr. THORNLEY. Now, I don't know. Self-esteem in one's own eyes, it
seems to me, would have to be justified by some means. Some people
justify it by means of their attraction to the opposite sex or by means
of their standing in some country club. I think Oswald justified it by
means of his recalcitrance, kind of a reverse self-esteem.
By means of his unwillingness to do what he was ordered, for example.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that he sought the esteem of
others, not necessarily his officers, but the esteem of somebody or
some group or some persons about him and in his life----
Mr. THORNLEY. I think he wanted this very much but I don't think he
knew how to go about getting it. He wanted it, and yet he certainly
didn't--I think he would have felt he was cheating himself if he had
offered them anything in exchange for it. He wanted it but he wanted it
to come to him for no reason. He didn't want to have to earn it. I got
that impression. That is a very mild impression.
Mr. JENNER. We are dealing in a very delicate field here and I am
pressing you very severely.
Mr. THORNLEY. These are sometimes very gray, thin lines we have to
distinguish between.
Mr. JENNER. We are probing for motivation. Did you ever discuss with
him the matter of education?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. His own; or education in the abstract; or the need for
education in order to attain accomplishments; or any regard to whether
his status in life, his personal comfort, his personal peace, could be
advanced by further education?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the feeling of any discomfort on his part
or inferiority because of his limited education?
Mr. THORNLEY. No. First of all, in the Marine Corps there is a
prevalence of this kind of feeling among many of the enlisted men, and
Oswald was exempt from it.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "exempt from it"?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he didn't, for example, have the usual bitterness
toward somebody who read, well, just merely because he did read.
Mr. JENNER. He may have felt superior because he did read, did you have
that feeling?
Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was a definite feeling?
Mr. THORNLEY. I wouldn't say anything in my experience with him caused
me to particularly notice that he felt superior because he did read.
But except, yes, there is one time a friend of his, I don't know who
it was, I haven't been able to recall the name at present, one morning
looked over at our commanding officer who was walking by, Colonel
Poindexter, an air ace in Korea----
Mr. JENNER. A what?
Mr. THORNLEY. An ace pilot in Korea, and made the comment, "There goes
a mental midgit" which drew glee from Oswald, as I remember. But aside
from that one particular incident--well, in any case, when he was
dealing with military superiors he always felt superior to them. You
got that impression. But dealing with the other marines who maybe did
have an education or did not have an education, I didn't get any, ever
get any impression one way or the other that he had a tendency to react
to this.
Mr. JENNER. As between yourself and him, your association, what was
your feeling? Did he regard himself as compatible with you and you with
him?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; definitely. I didn't get any idea that he was--I
thought his education was about the same as my own which certainly
isn't spectacular by any means. I thought he might have had a year of
college. I knew he had--I figured he had graduated from high school. It
never occurred to me to think any more about it. I did, as I mentioned
before, notice once in a while that he had gaps in his knowledge, but
many people do, in fact all of us do, I am sure, in some fields.
But in Oswald's case they perhaps had an unusual pattern to them or
something that made me notice them, perhaps. Perhaps he was better
read, for example, on Marxist economics than any other school of
economics, things like this. But that was the extent of it.
Mr. JENNER. Was there in your kicking around with him in your
discussions--was there ever any discussion of your past, of his past,
his life?
Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. This I am almost certain of. I had no
idea, for example, that he was from Texas or where he was from. At that
time I don't recall him having a Texas accent, either. I had no idea
that his father had died when he was young. I had no idea about his
family, anything along this line and I don't think I ever discussed my
past with him.
Mr. JENNER. Was any mention ever made of his attendance at or even the
name of the Albert Schweitzer College?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussions about any plans of his or possibility of his
seeking further education of any kind or character when he was mustered
out of the Marines?
Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. For one thing we were not close enough
friends to have any personal interests in each other. I looked upon
him as somebody to argue with, another atheist--therefore, without the
problem of religion between us--and to argue philosophy and politics
about, and I think he looked upon me in about the same light.
Mr. JENNER. What was your dexterity with Marine weapons?
Mr. THORNLEY. Mine?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. THORNLEY. I was a sharpshooter.
Mr. JENNER. What was his?
Mr. THORNLEY. I believe--well, at that time I didn't know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't know. I want your viewpoint as of that time.
While you were based at El Toro, did the unit engage with any
regularity in rifle practice?
Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. At that time, the whole time I was
there, we did not engage in rifle practice.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of curiosity on my own part, why was that?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, in the Marine Corps you are required once a year
to go to the rifle range and qualify. I was not there an entire year.
Point No. 2, this was the Marine air wing which has much less of an
emphasis on, in general, on rifle practice because it is not going to
be utilized in battle, and a much stronger emphasis, in the case of the
outfit we were in, on our particular military occupational specialty.
Mr. JENNER. Which was?
Mr. THORNLEY. 6749 Aviation Electronic Operator.
Mr. JENNER. Was this true when you reached Japan?
Mr. THORNLEY. More so. When I reached Japan, however, we did go to the
rifle range one time shortly after I got there, and qualify. I recall
at that time that in Japan we weren't even having rifle inspections.
There you could put your rifle away in your locker and forget about it,
and take it out every couple of months and make sure it hadn't corroded
away, and put it back again.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't even have rifle inspection?
Mr. THORNLEY. Once in a while we would have one, but not with any
frequency whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned so that you could clean your rifle?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; usually you were caught unawares, which was why you
kept it clean in the locker.
Mr. JENNER. I see. What are the grades of marksmanship?
Mr. THORNLEY. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.
Mr. JENNER. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. Therefore, I gather
from that that marksman was the basic grade.
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A grade that every marine was expected to, and had to,
attain that grade?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not had to attain, some didn't, and there was no
particular penalty involved, except maybe something a little
extracurricular when you were in boot camp. Otherwise, you didn't
wear a marksman's medal is all. You didn't have any qualification in
the infantry; of course, it would be looked down upon in the case of
promotion or something like that. In the air wing it had much slighter
significance than that. Maybe if you were being considered for a
meritorious promotion and you hadn't qualified you wouldn't get it, but
day to day it had no significance.
Mr. JENNER. Were the standards applied in the air wing with respect
to qualifications for these three classes as severe or as high as the
standards applied, let us say, in the Marine infantry?
Mr. THORNLEY. Exactly the same; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Exactly the same. Would you please state for me your
concept of the degree of marksmanship for (a) marksman, (b)
sharpshooter, (c) expert?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, a marksman is an average shooter. A man, I think,
could pick up a rifle and with a little commonsense and a minimum
knowledge of the basics of marksmanship qualify as a marksman. When a
man doesn't qualify as a marksman it is usually either because he is
nervous on the day of qualification or he is gun shy or some outside
influence confuses him; maybe he gets his windage off, something like
this.
Sharpshooter is just a little above average. It ranges over about--a
pretty wide field. But it is a man who--a sharpshooter would be a man,
the average man, with a good, maybe a week of training on how to use a
rifle, and some practice.
Whereas an expert is the kind of man I would hate to have on the other
side in a war. He is accurate with his rifle up to and including 500
yards in a number of different positions. Hits the bull's-eye or close
to the bull's-eye an overwhelming percentage of the time.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the category in which we would place that to which
we refer generally as the sniper?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Well, any man might be assigned as a sniper, I
imagine. But an expert rifleman would perform much better.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe be a superior sniper.
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Definitely.
Mr. JENNER. And to attain the position of expert marksman must there be
considerable practice and use of the weapon or is it more of natural
ability?
Mr. THORNLEY. Now, you enter in once again to natural ability, just as
not qualifying might be caused by a lack of natural ability of some
kind. An expert rifleman probably would have a much calmer nervous
system or, you might say, a much greater degree of control.
I would imagine training can make up for this. I know a couple of times
I just missed expert by a few points. It seemed that I couldn't make
expert. It seemed to me there was just something I didn't have in order
to make expert. It was very frustrating.
Mr. JENNER. You tried?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; it takes a great degree of control, primarily. Of
course, the other things like good eyesight and so on and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his degree of proficiency
in the use of the rifle?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impressions that you gathered in that
respect while you were with him at El Toro?
Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. Had somebody asked me to guess about
Oswald, I would have said, well, he probably didn't qualify, just
because that was the type of guy he was, but that is all.
Mr. JENNER. You would never have expected him to have been a
sharpshooter, for example?
Mr. THORNLEY. It wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he was and it
wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he wasn't. This is something very
difficult: to look at a man and tell, at least it is very difficult for
me. I have seen some drill instructors who could do it. But to tell
whether he is going to be an expert or a sharpshooter, marksman, I am
not qualified.
Mr. JENNER. While you were stationed with him at El Toro, did you ever
go off base with him?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion of dates?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. His attitude toward women?
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Sex?
Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt around the camp in that regard
with respect to him?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Sex habits, propensities?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; you stand a risk in the Marine Corps, if you are
at all quiet and tend to be introverted, of being suspected of being
homosexual, but to the best of my knowledge there were never any
comments made of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some other readings of his in addition to
"1984"?
Mr. THORNLEY. I do recall having mentioned Dostoievsky to him and I
know he had read something and I think it was "Crime and Punishment"
but I am not sure. It was something I had not read by Dostoievsky when
I had read about, I guess at that time, about three or four books.
Mr. JENNER. It is a great book.
Mr. THORNLEY. Someday I am going to get around to it.
Mr. JENNER. Have you not read it yet? It is a really great book.
Mr. THORNLEY. No; and I don't recall him mentioning any other books
offhand. I don't--I can't think of a thing besides "1984" and some book
by Dostoievsky.
Mr. JENNER. While you were based at El Toro did he engage, did you
notice, in any officer baiting on his part with respect, in particular,
to such matters as foreign affairs?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; not on foreign affairs, no, but the same officer,
Lieutenant Donovan, spoke of in a foreign affairs lecture in the
newspapers, I do remember him baiting him on a couple of occasions.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald attempting to bait Lieutenant Donovan?
Mr. THORNLEY. I don't remember what it was. I know, I believe
Lieutenant Donovan was also a lieutenant which I had had a couple of
run-ins with if I remember correctly.
If not, it was Lieutenant Delprado. It was one of the two of them. Mine
were completely accidental and I went to great length to keep away from
one of them because it seemed like any time I was around him I happened
to do something to irritate him. But Oswald, I don't recall exactly
what he said, but he a couple or three times went out of his way to
say something to one of these lieutenants that would cause them to be
irritated and in this you can't really say that he was exceptional. It
happened many times. In Oswald's case though, it was exceptionally----
Mr. JENNER. You mean it happened many times with respect to other
noncoms in the Marines with respect to these officers?
Mr. THORNLEY. Right; but in Oswald's case it seemed a little more
deliberate. Some guys would get mad and they would say something,
or sometimes they would do something by accident, and they would get
themselves involved and then they would decide, "Well, what the hell,"
and push it all away. Oswald it seemed didn't have to have any reason.
He just told an officer to get lost.
Mr. JENNER. He baited an officer for the pleasure of it?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I might mention that this was one means by which he
won the admiration of others in the outfit in that the junior officers
especially are usually disliked, or were in that outfit, and this made
him on such occasions as he engaged with an officer in some kind of
officer baiting, this won the respect, for at least a few minutes, of
the men--who would kind of laugh about it, and chuckle over it and tell
others about it. Perhaps this is why he did it.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned some slovenliness on his part; what about his
quarters, his barracks; did you have occasion to observe them?
Mr. THORNLEY. I don't think I was ever in his barracks. I do recall
having been told that he had Russian books and that is all I--that is
the only connection I can make now in my mind with his quarters. I
don't think I ever saw them.
Mr. JENNER. You already have given us something of his view of the
U.S. Marine Corps. Would you give us a summary of that? Give us your
impression of his views with respect to the U.S. Marine Corps.
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, definitely the Marine Corps was not what he had
expected it to be when he joined. Also he felt that the officers and
the staff NCO's at the Marine Corps were incompetent to give him orders.
Mr. JENNER. Incompetent in what sense, they were below him
intellectually?
Mr. THORNLEY. They were below him intellectually--and for various other
reasons in each case, too. Maybe this officer was ignorant, as was
brought out about foreign affairs, in Oswald's mind, knew less than
Oswald did about it. I don't hold with the stand that Oswald would
study up on foreign affairs simply in order to bait the officer. I
think it just happened to be that Oswald would see that the officer
was basing his foreign affairs maybe on Time magazine when Oswald had
done a little more reading and I think he resented this Time magazine
approach to foreign affairs.
Mr. JENNER. How did these discussions arise, Mr. Thornley, the
discussion of foreign affairs by officers?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, the officers, every so many weeks--this is
mentioned somewhere in this pile of papers--every so many weeks a
lieutenant is appointed to give a foreign affairs lecture or a current
affairs lecture, pardon me, to the troops, at which time he explains
the world situation in a half hour. I remember having one second
lieutenant telling us about Dalai Lama or it was a first lieutenant
and I forget what he told us, but it was something completely absurd.
I think at that time the Dalai Lama had just disappeared or something,
and one would get the impression, I think, that he thought the Dalai
Lama was a leader in Pakistan or something.
Mr. JENNER. That is the impression the lieutenant tried to convey?
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I think that was the impression the lieutenant had
had when he had been assigned to give this lecture. The last minute,
he got down and started going through the news magazines to get his
information, got it somewhat inaccurately, and didn't particularly care
whether it was accurate or not anyway. Stood up in front of the troops
and reeled off the lecture, and, of course, most of the enlisted men
didn't know enough to criticize him either because they weren't that
interested, and that was it--with a couple of people laughing up their
sleeves, and this happened later, this didn't happen at the time I knew
Oswald.
However, in such a situation Oswald would have been careful I am sure
to raise his hand and correct the lieutenant.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to get to that. During the course of these
lectures did the troops as you called them engage in discussion with
the instructor?
Mr. THORNLEY. They were permitted to ask questions, to raise their
hands to ask questions. And Oswald would have probably asked a question
which would have made light of the lieutenant's ignorance.
Mr. JENNER. Put the lieutenant at a disadvantage?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present at any times when you were at El Toro
when the lectures occurred when, at that time Oswald raised his hand
and engaged in dissertation?
Mr. THORNLEY. I might have been but I don't recall it if I was. I
recall being present at several lectures at El Toro, and it just might
have happened. It was the kind of thing Oswald would do and it wouldn't
even have phased me. I probably wouldn't even have bothered to remember
if it had happened. It would have been just part of the daily routine
there so I would have----
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever engage in that sort of thing?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; I never had guts enough to stand up and tell an
officer he didn't know what he was talking about. Behind his back I
might tell somebody that such-and-such officer didn't know what he was
talking about, but I was never quite that brash--in that particular
respect, anyway.
Mr. JENNER. What were your impressions on Oswald being interested in
music?