Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything then?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; at that time I don't remember knowing that he had
been in the Philippines.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about ever having been in Formosa?
Mr. PIC. No, sir. Just Japan, I think possibly Korea, maybe, was
mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. But there was no discussion of his marine career to speak
of?
Mr. PIC. He was affiliated with radar, he told me, radio radar.
Mr. JENNER. Did the subject arise of why he went to Russia?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That was not discussed at all?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said? Anything said about his experiences in
Russia prior to the time he became married there?
Mr. PIC. No sir; he didn't mention that at all to me.
Mr. JENNER. And anything said about his problems with the--I will
withdraw that.
Was anything said about his defection or attempted defection to Russia?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he did not mention his defection at all. Why he did
it or how he did it, he didn't mention anything, and I didn't ask him.
Mr. JENNER. During the several days you were in Fort Worth visiting
your brother Robert, did you and he go hunting?
Mr. PIC. We went fishing, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Fishing? I take it you did not go hunting.
Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at that particular time. When I first went there
in 1958, we did go hunting.
Mr. JENNER. I see. When you three boys were in Fort Worth, that is
before you enlisted in January 1950, did you boys occasionally go
hunting?
Mr. PIC. We had no firearms whatsoever, sir, in the house.
Mr. JENNER. So you did not go hunting?
Mr. PIC. I didn't. Robert possibly did with some friends of his. I
don't think Lee ever did. We went fishing several times.
Mr. JENNER. After you returned to this country in 1962, thereafter
there were occasions, where there, or some one occasion, at least, when
you did go squirrel or rabbit hunting with your brother Robert?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; that was in 1958.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. When you were traveling across country to
California?
Mr. PIC. Yes; we went to his in-law's farm and we did a little hunting
on his father-in-law's property.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of firearms?
Mr. PIC. .22, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Single shot?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You say the subject of your mother was not mentioned in the
course of this Thanksgiving Day visit?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; Robert and I never brought her up in any
conversations we had.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about her?
Mr. PIC. He mentioned her, that he had seen her or been in touch with
her when he first came back, maybe even stayed with her for a week or
two when he first came back, I don't remember. My wife later told me
that Marina couldn't get along with my mother.
Mr. JENNER. Marina told your wife that she couldn't get along with your
mother?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I think it was Vada told my wife that Marina
couldn't. I think she rather observed this rather than being told by
Marina.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. PIC. That the two of them, not that they didn't get along, but that
Marina disliked her.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw your brother Lee?
Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the course of that Thanksgiving Day, my brother
Robert offered to drive him back to the bus station. Lee made a phone
call and it was my understanding that the people that he phoned were of
Russian descent, and that Marina often visited with them or talked with
them, so she could talk in her own native tongue, and that their boy,
who was attending, I believe, the University of Oklahoma----
Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory?
Mr. PIC. Sir, I don't remember his name at all, because I was mad at
the time I was introduced to him.
Mr. JENNER. Introduced to whom?
Mr. PIC. This gentleman who picked him up.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a young man?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances, tell us what led up
to this incident, and tell us all about the incident.
Mr. PIC. Well, they made the phone call, and Lee said that they would
be picked up by their friends, and I think sometime between 6 and 7
that night he came by. Now, my brother Robert, whenever he introduces
me to anyone always refers to me as his brother. Lee referred to me as
his half brother when he introduced me.
Mr. JENNER. On this occasion?
Mr. PIC. It was very pronounced. He wanted to let the man know I was
only his half brother. And this kind of peeved me a little bit. Because
we never mentioned the fact that we were half brothers.
Mr. JENNER. You never had that feeling?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time that your brother had ever
introduced you to anyone as his half brother? I am talking about your
brother Lee now.
Mr. PIC. I think possibly, sir, this is the first time he ever
introduced me to anyone.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time he had ever referred to you as your
half brother?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. His half brother?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that so?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that irritated you on this occasion?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Right then and there I had the feeling that the
hostile feeling was still there. Up until this time it didn't show
itself, but I felt then, well, he still felt the same way.
Mr. JENNER. This young man from the University of Oklahoma, whose name,
by the way, was Gregory----
Mr. PIC. He was at the University of Oklahoma.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. I have said this three or four times, I wasn't certain, but
I am sure he was and I was introduced to him as Lee's half brother,
and the man was studying Russian at the school. His parents were from
Russia.
Mr. JENNER. He came alone, did he?
Mr. PIC. The car was parked out front, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he was alone when he came in?
Mr. PIC. He was in the house alone.
Mr. JENNER. Was it night?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it was dark between 6 and 7 in November.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go out to the car?
Mr. PIC. No; I didn't. We stayed in the house.
Mr. JENNER. Did Robert go out to the car?
Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina appear to be acquainted with this young man?
Mr. PIC. Yes; as soon as he walked in she started talking Russian to
him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond in Russian?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Lee spoke to him in Russian?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Except when he was introducing you to him he introduced you
in English as his half brother?
Mr. PIC. Well, Lee would speak to him part Russian, part English. He
was only there maybe a couple or 3 minutes. I had the impression that
this gentleman could speak Russian better than Lee.
Mr. JENNER. What gave you that impression?
Mr. PIC. Because Lee wouldn't converse fully with him in Russian
whereas him and Marina did converse fully in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Any other impressions you got of this several hours visit
with your brother Lee?
Mr. PIC. Well, right before they left, sir; I told him that if he needs
any help or anything, to let me know. I told him I was unable to help
him financially but he is welcome to pay us a visit any time he wished,
stay with us, talk like that.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. PIC. He said OK. He told me to write to him, and in this book, sir,
which I had there he wrote his post office box address in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. We will give that little book, to which you make reference,
John Pic Exhibit No. 60.
(The document referred to was marked John Pic Exhibit No. 60 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. I have John Pic Exhibit No. 60 in my hand. What is this?
Mr. PIC. A black memo book, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Of yours?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I had it in my car at the time. Whenever I travel I
keep a little book with my mileage on it and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. I notice that the fist ruled page of this book on which
there appear some figures, the letter "B" and then there are some
handwritings which appears to be Russian. I show that to you.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that?
Mr. PIC. That is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of her writing in this book?
Mr. PIC. Only part of this, sir, is in the handwriting of Marina
Oswald. This right here [indicating].
Mr. JENNER. That is the word beginning with the letter, it looks like
the letter "N" or "M" and the word right below that beginning with the
letter "D," and a word right below that beginning, it looks like a
capital "H"?
Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. The other ones are in my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. The others are all figures?
Mr. PIC. Right.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of her writing that on the page?
Mr. PIC. She being a pharmacist, and me being in the medical field,
we tried to communicate with each other just to make small talk with
medical terminology, metric system and so forth, just some way to kill
time with each other she and I seemed to be able to do this to some
degree.
Mr. JENNER. That is to communicate?
Mr. PIC. Yes; as long as we stuck within the pharmacy and medical field.
Mr. JENNER. Did she know some English terms in the pharmacy, medical
field?
Mr. PIC. She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. Just what was that writing, some medical terms?
Mr. PIC. Yes; I think these are names of drugs she was writing down. I
wouldn't know.
Mr. JENNER. There is a large letter "B" on that page. How did that get
on there?
Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I don't know, sir. I wouldn't venture a
guess whose handwriting it is.
Mr. JENNER. There is a square to the left of the handwriting in
Russian, what does that signify?
Mr. PIC. This was placed there by the Secret Service, in San Antonio,
sir, to identify the handwritings in this book, the square being the
handwriting of Marina Oswald, the parentheses being the handwriting of
myself and the mark with the circle being the handwriting of Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. So that wherever throughout that book a zero appears that
is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Wherever the parentheses mark appears that is your
handwriting?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And wherever the square appears that is Marina's
handwriting?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Turn the page over. On the reverse side of that page that
is all your handwriting?
Mr. PIC. Except this up here, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The reverse side of the previous page.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the front side of the next page which has
the letter "A" printed on it, in the upper right-hand corner. Is that
in your handwriting?
Mr. PIC. Everything except this top portion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The top portion?
Mr. PIC. Starting with liquid measure would be my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And then there is something above that?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is that?
Mr. PIC. I believe that to be Marina Oswald's, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Everything below that is yours?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The reverse side of that page, that is the
reverse side of the "A" page is in whose handwriting?
Mr. PIC. My handwriting, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then the page opposite that?
Mr. PIC. That is in my handwriting, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The reverse side of that page is blank. Then the face
of the next page is some figures and the words "Highway start, Fort
Worth," and "highway" again, those are all in whose handwriting?
Mr. PIC. My handwriting, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then the series of pages are blank, and the first writing
we see thereafter is on the "C" page, some letters and a figure. Whose
handwriting is that?
Mr. PIC. That is mine, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The next handwriting appears on the last ruled page. Whose
handwriting is that?
Mr. PIC. That is the handwriting of my wife, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All of it?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she loves to write her name.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Then on the next to the last page in the book
which is a plain white page, appears P.O. Box 2195, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. PIC. That is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite page, which is the inside of the back
cover----
Mr. PIC. This is the identifying mark in the hand of Secret Service
Agent Ben A. Vidles, in San Antonio, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This book is in the same condition now as it was?
Mr. PIC. When I gave it to the Secret Service.
Mr. JENNER. When you gave it to the Secret Service.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Plus the identifying marks you have described?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document, memorandum book now marked
as "John Pic Exhibit No. 60."
(The document heretofore marked for identification as John Pic Exhibit
No. 60 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter prior to November 22, up to but prior to
November 22, 1963, hear anything about your brother?
Mr. PIC. The day or two after they left Robert and I went fishing.
While we were in the boat there was Robert, myself, and my oldest boy,
and at this time I asked him about Lee, I asked him if he considered
or thought that Lee was a little on the pink side and just how he was
getting along. Robert informed me that he had had seen FBI agents once
in awhile who said Lee was doing pretty good and that there was nothing
to worry about. And all reports that he had had were favorable towards
Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Robert did tell you that the FBI had checked with him?
Mr. PIC. He had seen an agent now and then, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate as to whether the FBI had come to visit
him or whether he had merely run into some FBI agent?
Mr. PIC. I had the impression that they had visited him where he
worked, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything else about your brother from that
occasion up to but not including November 22, 1963?
Mr. PIC. Well, other information I gathered from my talks with Robert
in those few days was that Lee and Marina made the trip to see them in
Fort Worth fairly regular, to have dinner, things like this. It seems
that Vada and Marina were at one time, I was told, talking----
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. PIC. By Vada, Marina was trying to make a point about her wedding
ring being she couldn't speak English, Vada got the impression that
Marina had been married before.
Mr. JENNER. That Marina had been married before?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is the only thing she could gather from Marina
flashing her wedding ring and talking about this. The four of us were
present, Robert, myself, and the two wives. But this was done over
coffee.
Mr. JENNER. This was after Lee and Marina had left?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was after they had left.
Mr. JENNER. What did Robert say on that subject, if anything?
Mr. PIC. Nothing. That he didn't think she had been married before.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your brother Robert, and did he visit you
subsequent to that occasion on Thanksgiving up to but not including
November 22, 1963?
Mr. PIC. A couple or 3 days prior to Christmas of 1962, Robert and his
family returned the visit to our home in San Antonio, sir. I asked
Robert this time if he had seen or heard from Lee since we had last
seen him and he told me, no.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any comment on that subject that he had not heard
from Lee up to that time?
Mr. PIC. It was really only a matter of 3 or 4 weeks at the most, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So it didn't occasion any surprise on your part?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you given any other information by Robert with respect
to Lee?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Robert again subsequent to this pre-Christmas
Party 1962?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And up to but not including November 22, 1963?
Mr. PIC. I still haven't seen him since Christmas 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Have you corresponded?
Mr. PIC. We have written a few letters, and I was permitted to make a
phone call to him right after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say in the course of that conversation? What
did you say?
Mr. PIC. This was--I was permitted to make the phone call after Lee's
murder. The Secret Service said I could contact Robert. He had called
where I worked and left a number. I contacted the Secret Service. They
told me go ahead and call this number, call them back and tell them the
gist of the conversation.
I called him up at this number. Someone answered the phone and I asked
for Robert and they called him to the phone. He told me that he and
his--told me his wife and children were at the farm with her folks, I
believe that is what he told me. That he was--he couldn't tell me where
he was but he was in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Robert was?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; under custody of the Secret Service.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this?
Mr. PIC. This was Sunday, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The day of the death of your brother?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The 24th of November 1963?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else was said?
Mr. PIC. He told me that some local business people would make
arrangements for the funeral and there would be no expense to him. I
told him I was sorry it happened and everything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having seen your brother at the
Dallas City Police Station prior to this telephone conversation?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion in this telephone conversation
about the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. About the possible involvement of your brother in that
connection?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was confined largely, if not
exclusively, to the death of your brother?
Mr. PIC. The conversation was just about as I related it, sir. It was
mostly confined to the death of Lee.
Mr. JENNER. And his burial?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend the funeral services?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I was not permitted. In fact, the Secret Service
did not let me write Robert for, I think, 7 to 8 days after the
assassination. At that time they granted me permission to freely
correspond with him.
Mr. JENNER. And you did so?
Mr. PIC. I think we have written about two, three letters back and
forth. I am the one who fails to write. He never fails to write.
Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of these letters involved Lee; any of
them?
Mr. PIC. I think the very first one I got concerned the welfare of his
family. They were out at the farm. That his company treated him very
good about all the time lost. That Marina asked about us and how we
were getting along. In my return letter to him I told him nobody had
bothered us and we were getting along just fine. He informed me that he
was--I suggested if they could, to come down and stay with us awhile.
We had just purchased a new house, we had the room, and he wrote back
and told me that because he had missed all the time because of the
incidents he was unable to get any more time from his company without
losing his job.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen Marina in the meantime?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The last time you saw her, I take it, then, was
Thanksgiving Day 1962?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Has there been any correspondence between you?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Has there been any correspondence that was indirect in any
fashion?
Mr. PIC. My last letter I received from Robert was right after he
appeared here. He mentioned that Marina often asked about my wife
and I. Other than this, there has been no mention. He has mentioned
about the grave being desecrated, and some information concerning the
gravesite of Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Before I return to some specifics, is there anything else
that has occurred to you in your reflection on this matter that you
would like to mention?
Mr. PIC. The actual assassination, that time period or what, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Well, anything you think that might be relevant to the
Commission's investigation as to the circumstances surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy, any persons involved therein, the
subsequent death of your brother.
Mr. PIC. Most of the information that I have seen and heard has been
all new to me, like his escapades in New Orleans, passing out the
leaflets and his radio program.
Mr. JENNER. Those incidents, by the way, were unknown to you until
after the assassination, I take it?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I assure you if I had known he was doing his
escapades again I would have went to the proper authorities about it.
Mr. JENNER. I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first
Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages
of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your
attention first to the lower left-hand spread at the bottom of the
page. Do you recognize the area shown there?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your
brother?
Mr. PIC. This one here with the arrow.
Mr. JENNER. The one that has the printed arrow?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you recognize that as your brother?
Mr. PIC. Because they say so, sir.