Mr. JENNER. That is Robert's wife?
Mr. PIC. Wife. Of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say
to each other, and through my wife, I found out what Vada had said
to her, that Lee did not permit Marina to wear any lipstick, he did
not permit her to learn English. My wife, she thought this was really
absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a TV set and let
her sit home and learn English. My wife thought it was terrible the way
her conditions were as far as this was concerned. The girls seemed to
gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said by Vada or your wife on that occasion as
to the reason why Lee was not permitting Marina to learn English and
speak it and write it?
Mr. PIC. Well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn English she
would wise up, being we had seen the Japanese wise with their husbands.
For example, while they were living over in Japan and the wife is
usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see,
she gets her American ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all
the other American wives do. And my wife was under the impression that
this would happen if once she did learn English and everything.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Keep talking about what occurred on this
particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you
exhaust all of your recollection.
Mr. PIC. Well, Marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set
the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. At no time did we
mention our mother. She wasn't present. In fact--I will take that
statement back.
Some time during our stay there Vada mentioned that she had seen my
mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried.
This may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. We
stayed there Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and we left Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion or
in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how Vada and
Marina had gotten along while the Oswalds, your brother, and she lived
with your brother Robert and your sister-in-law Vada?
Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. If it was any talk it was
probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which
is small talk to the men, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn on that day that Lee had lived with your
brother for a while?
Mr. PIC. I had learned during that time period that Lee and Marina had
lived with Robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by
the press and TV to contact them, but Robert wouldn't let them. He
wasn't going to go through it again. Robert only had a one--two-bedroom
apartment, I mean house, and I am sure when we stayed there we were
crowded a little bit. My wife and I slept on the floor, and I am sure
Marina and Robert, I don't know where they slept--I mean Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept
on a mattress on the floor?
Mr. PIC. A couple of blankets on the floor, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn during that period of time that Lee had lived
with your brother for a time?
Mr. PIC. Possibly, sir; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the fact or any allusion to the
fact that during this period, up to Thanksgiving Day, there had been a
time when Marina had not lived with your brother Lee?
Mr. PIC. No, sir. I understood they arrived from New York, at New York
together, and proceeded--there was a short stay, I think, mentioned in
New York. Where they stayed, I don't know, sir, and then they proceeded
to Texas and lived with Robert.
Mr. JENNER. I am referring particularly to September and October and
part of November 1962. Was there any reference or any discussion of it
or anything said in your presence of the fact that Marina had lived
apart, separate and apart from Lee?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During one or more periods of time in September or October
and November 1962?
Mr. PIC. Possibly it could have been being Marina stayed there while
Lee went to look for a job in Dallas. I think, that may have been
mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Was there at any time mentioned even while he was working
in Fort Worth, fully employed that she had separated from him and gone
to live elsewhere?
Mr. PIC. I am not aware that he did work in Fort Worth, sir, at any
time.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't learn at that time, Thanksgiving, that he had
worked in Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the Leslie Welding Co. mentioned at all?
Mr. PIC. Something about welding was mentioned, that he tried it when
he first came back, now that you mention it.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression or did you gain the impression then
that he had had some employment in Fort Worth then as a welder?
Mr. PIC. I don't remember if it was Fort Worth, sir, or where it was. I
just know that welding was mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection, was it mentioned or in any fashion
indicated to you that he had been employed as a welder whether in Fort
Worth or otherwise, but he had been employed as a welder?
Mr. PIC. It was my impression because of his experience in the Soviet
Union working with metals that this helped him in getting his job as a
welder.
Mr. JENNER. When he first returned?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that that was a position or work that he had had prior
to the time that he obtained the position in Dallas about which he
spoke?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is a position preceding his work in the photography
field in some firm in Dallas?
Mr. PIC. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Anything said about his financial status--that is, his and
Marina's, and the child?
Mr. PIC. Well, he said he wasn't making very much money, but they were
managing to get by. They couldn't afford a TV, couldn't afford a radio,
couldn't afford these necessities of life.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during the course of that day on the
subject of any political philosophy of his?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at all.
Mr. JENNER. Politics wasn't discussed?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whether party politics or politics in the broad sense?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at all.
Mr. JENNER. How did he look to you physically as compared with when you
had seen him last?
Mr. PIC. I would have never recognized him, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Your brother Robert said something along these
lines. You had last seen him in 19--that was prior to this occasion,
the last time you had seen him was when he was in New York City?
Mr. PIC. Which was a little over 10 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, just about 10 years.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Of course you had seen him in February 1953, I think you
said.
Mr. PIC. Right. But we walked in and he walked out.
Mr. JENNER. But you saw him?
Mr. PIC. Right, I had seen him for a moment.
Mr. JENNER. He was then at that particular time in the neighborhood of
13 years of age?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw him 10 years later he was 23.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed, did you, a material change, physically first,
let's take his physical appearance?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Physically I noticed that.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice?
Mr. PIC. He was much thinner than I had remembered him. He didn't have
as much hair.
Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention? Was that a material
difference? Did that strike you?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his physical appearance that
arrested your attention?
Mr. PIC. His face features were somewhat different, being his eyes
were set back maybe, you know like in these Army pictures, they looked
different than I remembered him. His face was rounder. Marilyn had
described him to me when he went in the Marine Corps as having a bull
neck. This I didn't notice at all. I looked for this, I didn't notice
this at all, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He seemed more slender?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He had materially less hair?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. His eyes seemed a little sunken?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you the appearance of--was he taut, was he
relaxed or taut, or just what appearance did he have in that connection?
Mr. PIC. Sir, he didn't strike me as being relaxed because I was not
with him.
Mr. JENNER. You were not?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; because of these other feelings we had developed 10
years prior to this. I wondered about how he still felt about that.
Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred to lead you to believe that he still
remembered it vividly, or did or didn't?
Mr. PIC. When he was introduced to my wife again he did mention that he
remembered her. But other than that, he completely ignored her.
Mr. JENNER. Was that pretty obvious?
Mr. PIC. To her it was, sir. She mentioned it to me several times. He
arrived about 2.
Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon?
Mr. PIC. Right; and that is when we picked him up, so I guess we ate
about 3, 4 o'clock or so. And then the girls cleared off the table and
they sat and had coffee and I took them out, they wanted to see my car.
Mr. JENNER. Took who out?
Mr. PIC. Lee and Robert both. They looked at my car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina out with you?
Mr. PIC. No; she stayed in the house with the girls, and we talked
about cars.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about a car?
Mr. PIC. I was made aware sometime during the day that he wasn't
driving. Other than this----
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of that?
Mr. PIC. He said he couldn't get a license, to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say why he couldn't get a license?
Mr. PIC. He said it and give me the impression because of his
citizenship status being he had a dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see your brother Lee Harvey Oswald drive an
automobile?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; never in my life.
Mr. JENNER. While you boys were still in Fort Worth and before you
enlisted in the Coast Guard in January 1950 had you--you had an
automobile, didn't you?
Mr. PIC. I drove the family car.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert drive?
Mr. PIC. He may have known how. He was not permitted to drive the
family car.
Mr. JENNER. I remember when I was a boy I wasn't permitted to drive the
family car, in the broad sense.
Mr. PIC. Right. He never swiped it.
Mr. JENNER. I was permitted to drive it up and down the driveway or
when my father was with me, I could drive it around the block or
something like that the way kids do. Was Robert permitted to do that on
a limited scale?
Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you own what we used to call in my day an old jalopy
while you were still in Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. That picture of that automobile there was quite an old jalopy,
sir.
Mr. JENNER. That was before you enlisted?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert ever drive that?
Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. In fact, I only drove
it a few times myself. This is the picture with the dog.
Mr. JENNER. That is the picture of the car in John Pic's Exhibit No. 55?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Lee never drove it, to your knowledge?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was your brother Robert interested in automobiles?
Mr. PIC. All kids are interested in automobiles.
Mr. JENNER. No; please--was he interested in automobiles?
Mr. PIC. Sure, he wanted to drive. He seen I was driving so he wanted
to drive and he wasn't as old as I was, I was permitted to drive and he
wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. What about your brother Lee Harvey Oswald in that respect?
Mr. PIC. I don't know if he ever was really interested at that age to
drive a car or not, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said on the day, Thanksgiving Day 1962, to
lead you to believe that he knew how to drive or operate an automobile?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you right handed?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is your brother Lee right or left handed?
Mr. PIC. I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right
handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my
mother made him change.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion when
you saw him about his experiences in the Marines?
Mr. PIC. There probably was, sir, but I don't remember what they
referred to. I know he told me he was at Atsugo Naval Air Station. This
I didn't know until he told me exactly where he was in Japan. I was
familiar with the Atsugo area.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having been in the Philippines?