Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is.
Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?
Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time?
Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front.
Mr. BELIN. Of what?
Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were
four, two on each right side behind.
Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?
Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car.
Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the
President's car.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something?
Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from,
and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came
from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned
back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the
blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.
Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did
he say?
Mr. BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside
of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the
right-hand side of his helmet.
Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet?
Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also.
Mr. BELIN. On his uniform.
Mr. BAKER. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say
ahead of the President?
Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side.
Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car.
Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your
question?
Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the
laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the
time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the
laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance
to talk to any of them?
Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those.
At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to
the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at
the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a
medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at
the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept
the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after
they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say,
30 minutes or something like that.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your
questions?
Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much.
Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?
Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or
about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had
kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and
behind.
Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin?
Mr. BAKER. That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city
hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that
day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together.
Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say
that you remember?
Mr. BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the
two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he?
Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then
at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this,
and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that
the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time,
after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car
stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.
Mr. BELIN. The President's car?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr.
Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said
it stopped completely.
Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop.
Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a
moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else
about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was?
Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know
where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill
and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly
where it came from.
Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then?
Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the
President, he said he would see him fall.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall
backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by
that?
Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I
assumed he went to the left of him.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought
what happened?
Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly,
you know, just what their story was.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came
from the front?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the
only one.
Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio
is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either
came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of
him. You know----
Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the
chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there
any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way
indicated to you that the shots came from the front?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions.
I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one
except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There
were two people sitting down on the first floor.
Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were
running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether
they were just trying to get out of the way.
Mr. DULLES. From inside the building?
Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside
and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to
my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in
and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever
I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming
in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also
around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door
deal.
Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the
elevator onto floors?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't
paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all
those floors.
Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?
Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the
elevator until he had got up on the stairs.
Senator COOPER. I am aware of that.
Mr. BAKER. I was still looking.
Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator.
Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.
Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into
each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?
Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know,
and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the
best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I
could see anybody.
Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. When you looked?
Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up.
Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you
notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas
School Book Depository?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were
open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those
windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I
looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out
of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was
looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really
didn't see nothing in the windows.
Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of
his testimony.
Mr. DULLES. Go ahead.
Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw
some pigeons fly up.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw
the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?
Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone
just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very
far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet
there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked
up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I
sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off,
and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I
really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell
which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.
Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing
north in the street.
Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going?
Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know.
Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you
said?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be.
Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly
startled?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons
you saw?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds,
you know, just with a sudden uprush.
Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might
have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over
the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was
said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started
parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.
Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple
underpass to my left, all out behind this building.
Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your
attention other than----