Senator COOPER. Crowd?
Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple
underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there,
you know, going up.
Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School
Book Depository when you went in?
Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and
Officer J. W. Williams was----
Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle
officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was
right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by
myself. I didn't know where anybody went.
Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the
President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up
there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out
there at Parkland.
Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see
the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several
other officers?
Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down
there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run
out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that
and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping
out of their cars and running down the street toward him.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into
the crowd at all or not?
Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by
the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the
motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting
just prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer
hunting?
Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.
Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action?
Mr. BAKER. Bolt action.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?
Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year.
Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. From other rifles?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you
did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them?
Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo
officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle
because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that
instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.
Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle?
Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.
Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one
you used?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.
Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have
belonged to Lee Oswald?
Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.
Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?
Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of
the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with
foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them
sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer
rifles.
Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you
heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a
rifle?
Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard
that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me
there was just a difference in them.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that
you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?
Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how
fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have
come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to
a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?
Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt
action in about the same time.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire
shots quickly one after the other?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your
experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as
quickly as those shots came?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time
from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?
Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of
those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be
over 3 seconds apart.
Mr. DULLES. Over what?
Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart.
Mr. BELIN. From each shot?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3
seconds from the second to the third?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds?
Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds.
Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?
Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very
helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)