Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then
what did you do?
Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top.
Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?
Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?
Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up
there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot
off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like
this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would
have to tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a
picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that
photograph of the building is how high?
Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top
of it and tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the
School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating
before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are
they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?
Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet.
Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof
side or to all sides of the roof?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind
this sign here.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way
around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I
heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that
railroad track."
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.
Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there,
say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at
that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the
wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up,
and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are
pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one
you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard
this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your
motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.
Mr. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were
people all over this railroad track.
Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over
the west?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and
then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would
have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the
back side.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign
on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and
some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is
that correct?
Mr. BAKER. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at
me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us
what else you did?
Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I
came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody
hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on
that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I
seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place
to hold on.
Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up
the sign, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.
Mr. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit
362.
All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building
right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.
Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?
Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't
anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting
there for sometime.
Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been
roosting there?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and
they were still flying around in the sky up there.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon
droppings?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over
here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there.
Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top
floor of the building?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the
building?
Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we
caught the same elevator back down.
Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not?
Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor
on up.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator
that we took up.
Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring
to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or
the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor?
Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from
the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there.
Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top
floor down or from the next to the top floor down?
Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes
to the next to the top.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the
stairs down?
Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you
take a different elevator down?
Mr. BAKER. We took the same one.
Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you
notice whether or not the other elevator was there?
Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking
out forward.
Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs
going to the roof?
Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator?
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip?
Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the
stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side
instead of just stepping over on the west elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court
reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which
purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the
marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway
marked "Ladder to the roof."
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked
"Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor,
which you said was the east elevator----
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west
elevator was on this top floor?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir?
Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did
you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on
that top floor or not?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was
following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around
over the building.
Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other
elevator?
Mr. BAKER. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down?
Mr. BAKER. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that
correct?
Mr. BAKER. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down?
Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and
I was still looking over the building.
Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was
on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor
he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this
freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of
it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped
for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the
roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody
being up there, and then we started on down.
Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on
or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on
either the third or the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?
Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked
to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?
Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?
Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I
went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle
and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building
been sealed off or not?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door.
Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from
coming in and out or what?
Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice
whether the west elevator was there?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the
Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told
us about that you can think of right now?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else.
Mr. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it
take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the
time you left, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly
on the first floor?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof
more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?
Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have
stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.
Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes?
Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't
find it and then we came on down.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have?
Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions?
Mr. BELIN. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw
Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that
correct?
Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was.
Mr. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you
in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man
that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas
School Book Depository Building on that day?
Mr. BAKER. He was the same man.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can
remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same
clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police
station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have
the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on.
Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away
from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that
you said for him to come toward you.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Did he turn around?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that
time, Officer Baker?
Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand?
Mr. BAKER. I had the pistol.
Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand.
Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.
Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was
unusual?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and
I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards
me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there
and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then
he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up
there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got
there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said,
"Do you know this man? Does he work here?"
And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up
the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the
expression or nothing on him.
Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of
breath?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building,
other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through
the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the
elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another
one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first
floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the
exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top
being north.
You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is
shown there.
Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called
out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?