Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds,
and----
Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last
shot?
Mr. BAKER. From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN. The first shot.
Mr. DULLES. The first shot?
Mr. BAKER. The first shot.
We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything
that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure
that I, you know, it took me a little longer.
Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it
started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw
Oswald?
Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we
did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.
(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.)
Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this?
Mr. BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second
time we hurried it up a little bit.
Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or
walk?
Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first
time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on
into the building.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or
trot or walk?
Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a
real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of.
Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March
20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that
what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time
you took?
Mr. BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum.
Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to
get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did
we slow down at all for that?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you
to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm
Street and the Parkway?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route
from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of
the building.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall.
Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?
Mr. BAKER. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go?
Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to
the west side of where the stairs was.
Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the
northeast corner?
Mr. BAKER. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do
you remember who was with us when we did this?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was
John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.
Mr. BELIN. John Howlett.
Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any
particular place?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do
that, do you remember?
Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some
cases of books on the left-hand side there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to
these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took?
Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18
seconds.
Mr. BELIN. What about the second time?
Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a
minute and 14 seconds.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when
it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr.
Dulles' questions.
Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. On the record.
Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you
ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is
that correct?
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door?
Mr. BAKER. That would be the west.
Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up
the elevator shaft at that time?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did.
Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator
shaft?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember?
Mr. BAKER. It is wood.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?
Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there,
you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they
were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you
could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it
was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from
three to four floors up.
Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was
there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.
Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if
there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear
there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?
Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was
covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.
Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time
and you did that with the stairs.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor
number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot
remember, I don't know.
Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because
it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the
elevator.
Mr. BELIN. At some higher floor after that?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court
reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you
know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second
floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came
around the stairs coming up from the first floor?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up
to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had
already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----
Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next
elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and
I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was
looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a
glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it
was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this
door opened I could see him walking on down.
Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not.
All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door
might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and
going through the door almost?
Mr. BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window
you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this
window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and
looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so
he was moving about as fast as I was.