(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for
identification.)
I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the
second to the third floor, or can't you tell?
Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.
Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps
before you came down to get Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second
floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if
you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to
walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you
do?
Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the
lunchroom that they can come through.
Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is
that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on
the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom,
would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor
other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally
operate it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have
an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is
Rolling a company or what is it?
Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it
was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for
reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth.
They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you
turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood
they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and
sentences and things they can put together.
Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?
Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They
have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of
the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the
floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to
stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in
their reading.
Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?
Mr. TRULY. They are very light.
Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10
Rolling Readers weigh?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten
pounds.
Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the
Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506
inclusive.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through
506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing
the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the
last time I saw him until November 16th."
Did I hear you say that?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on
October 16th, the morning he came to work.
Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him
until November 16th.
Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant
October 16th.
The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?
Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel
for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after
the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald
for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am
not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in
the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.
Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?
Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I
believe--November 15th, or something like that.
Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have
gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall
rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not
been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would
not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic
thing for me to think about.
Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have
any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as
FBI, regarding him?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.
Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia
and return from Russia?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently
was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I
suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here
and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.
Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?
Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the
service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone
on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a
thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack
Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years.
Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State
Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders
for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order
basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent
and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the
time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few
times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong,
and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not
anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not
be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39
years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He
gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any
trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.
Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his
emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of
average intelligence.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the
west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first
floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh
floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth
floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down
and up and get some stock and come back.
Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was
not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.
Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it
could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have
heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor
elevator, on the east side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when
you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?
Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor,
you could see the top of it at an angle.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the
fifth floor, or were you facing the east?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only
intent on getting to the seventh floor.
Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or
not an elevator was there?
Mr. TRULY. I cannot.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east
elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you
were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?
Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.
Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?
Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on
the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the
office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse
and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or
five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our
warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.
Representative FORD. On November 22d.
Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth
floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He
hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight.
But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might
be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.
Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the
employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that
Oswald was not among them?
Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an
answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor,
I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That
might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking
over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could
think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the
second floor and I knew he was in the building.
Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed
from the time of his employment that might have made you think then
that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound
of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not
believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots
came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and
the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from
there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just
the fact that they were trying to get people's names.
Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall
whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You did not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't
know whether it means anything, but this is the name."
Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told
the police?
Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15
minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far
off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was
very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming
down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department.
Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I
did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.
Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz,
did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and
where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said
5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off
the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe
him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the
reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody
as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be
blonde.
Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room,
did any words pass between you?
Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.
Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.
Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?
Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been
running or anything.
Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any
direction?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the
lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around
towards his middle, almost touching.
Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of
November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going
to take.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the
assassination that he would take that route.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your
employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School
Depository?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other
member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this
affair?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make
me feel that they might be connected with it.
Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or
unidentified characters during his employment with you?
Mr. TRULY. Never.
Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?
Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the
building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was
free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask
permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.
Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a
pushbutton type.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that
telephone?
Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.
Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now
whether he had ever used it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any
bundle?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take
a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with
Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from
that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along
the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across
there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated
putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we
took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker
encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?
Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I
would say.
Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?
Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a
minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as
near as I remember.
Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just
knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the
most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the
stairs?
Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.
Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald
took?
Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he
could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would
have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east
wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the
sixth floor stairs.
Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time
to get from the sixth to the second floor?
Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not,
because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor,
they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we
ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to
have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination.
He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we
did see the elevators in those positions.
Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else
go up to that floor and leave it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.
Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then
sent it up to a higher floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand
through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.
Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?
Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.
Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a
little difficult?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted
him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his
hand all through there and press one.
Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate
slatted--slats about this far apart.
Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you,
when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no
cordon at that time thrown around the building?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer
having been at the doorway at that point?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down
west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came
from there because of the echo or what.
Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one
of the back doors?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was
walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second
floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out
through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had
everything stopped.
Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before
you today, are they trustworthy?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have
been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt
their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression
goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie
Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the
work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal
amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have
picked up very well. They are doing their work well.
Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.
Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal.
We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)
_Wednesday, March 25, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE
BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD
The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin,
assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray,
observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.