Mr. BELIN. This is north right here?
Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here.
Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at
one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate----
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor?
Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that
they had moved books in the process of laying that floor?
Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them
particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that
floor in several days.
Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them?
Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows
on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of
cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner
of the building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that
were in the southeast corner?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons
that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in
putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or
less at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which
is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the
sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did
those books go all the way to the corner or not?
Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in
height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the
building.
Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go
to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out
of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them
in front of the east window.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually
kept on?
Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the
sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Approximately where?
Mr. TRULY. They were--I would say they were thirty or forty feet from
the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.
Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark
with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have
been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you
have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the
plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time
for any purpose.
Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or
large size?
Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that
floor.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later
on?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some
boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on
two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the
Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on
Commission Exhibit 483?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for
identification.)
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right.
Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in
that southeast corner?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet
or so away.
Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you
designate it?
Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders.
Representative FORD. He was an order filler?
Mr. TRULY. Order filler.
Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled
by each order filler every day?
Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check
on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give
me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in
succession for a whole week.
Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November
22d?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not.
Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that?
Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st
that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not
tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.
Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make
his initial or mark on it?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is
layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under
"C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends
it on for packing.
Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that
was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified
as to the individual.
Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day
they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are
filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those
wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of
the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them.
Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way
to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of
November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he
was taken to the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders
that might be dated November 22d--might have been filled--if they were
dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that
he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on
the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not
tell how many of those he filled on the 22d.
Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for
the 22d?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?
Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run
from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we
would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in
order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would
be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we
found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because
we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st,
he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning
of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or
the 22d.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was
there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that
had two or three orders on it.
Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?
Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the
stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many
orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?
Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.
Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever
belonged to any particular employee of yours?
Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him
about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is
the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.
Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you
referring to?
Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard
with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found
Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.
Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them
off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while
they will have 15 or 10 or something.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually
filled that were found on the clipboard?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that
were on there?
Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the
clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't
recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too
much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up
there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone
from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I
have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know,
about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying
to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI
or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?
Mr. BELIN. No, sir.
Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?
Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything
along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an
order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to
an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but
you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d,
would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any
way show when it was filled?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker
checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it
over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it.
When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the
packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as
of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies,
and then charged to the customer.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers
get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various
employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of
November 22d?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days
before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and
then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking
on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number
for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So
we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making
these errors.
Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being
made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November
22d?
Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.
(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this
individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or
several weeks?
Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now,
we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and
processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days
there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them.
We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a
reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we
get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the
orders.
Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the
order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted
a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do
not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did
not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those
orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we
are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have
lost it, the boys have lost it.
(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?
Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do
not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the
orders and just forgetting about that part of it.
Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard
to Bill Shelley?
Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.
Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the
clipboard?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?
Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit
No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C"
where you think the clipboard was found.
I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that
Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was
discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture,
on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the
end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr.
Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number
35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was
discovered.
Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?
Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.
Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.
Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the
most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of
Kaiser who found the clipboard.
Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who
knows approximately when the clipboard was found?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute.
According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December
2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which
he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with
orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission
documents. It is Document 7, page 381.
But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser,
which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or
whenever we get to him.
Representative FORD. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. Back on the record.
Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.