Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door
No. 24?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either
hand?
Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I
did.
Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey
Oswald after you saw them?
Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me,
does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?
Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you
paying attention?
Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything.
He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody
confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind
on his face.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on
Exhibit 499?
Mr. TRULY. East.
Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very
foreground of the picture?
Mr. TRULY. I believe so.
Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be?
Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when
that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?
Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the
stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee
Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a
movement, saw a man going away from him.
Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?
Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going
around, he saw a movement.
Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go
into the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No.
23.
But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until
the other day.
Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom.
Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.
Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is.
Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there?
Mr. TRULY. East.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for
identification.)
Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the
camera must be facing northeast.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?
Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in
which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with
Officer Baker.
Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker.
When did you find out what his name was?
Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was
down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.
Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th?
Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other
names. But I never did try to find out what his name was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for
identification.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third
floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not.
Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on
that floor.
Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the
east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.
Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?
Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor.
As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went
from the stairs over to the east elevator.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I
noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come
on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and
got on the east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?
All right.
Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?
Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little
penthouse on to the roof.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There
is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting
your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold.
We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below.
There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up
and down.
Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the
roof?
Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell
you why he wanted to go on the roof?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad
or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can
remember? About where you thought the shots came from?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we
reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the
railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of
the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at
the runways and the big sign on the roof.
He saw nothing.
He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I
think"--let's back up.
I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor,
"Be careful, this man will blow your head off."
And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the
building.
I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that
effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all?
Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said,
yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't
remember. I have heard so many things since, you know.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular
incident you have related about the running into the building and up
the stairs with this officer, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to
reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you
to do all this, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer
Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon
me--Houston Street, with a stopwatch?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and
come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that
correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and
Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to
here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer
Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the
elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling
twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to
the second floor. Do you remember that?
Mr. TRULY. I remember that.
Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?
Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted.
Mr. BELIN. We trotted.
Did we get out of breath, do you remember?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that
day with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I
think we did it twice, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I
don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes.
Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in
the morning.
Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more
or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November
22d?
Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so.
We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to
start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so
fast at first.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again?
Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering
people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a
little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March
20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.
Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March
20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the
fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west
elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the
seventh floor?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because--I could not see the west elevator while
operating the east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just
couldn't see it?
Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I
passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.
I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up
there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator
next? If you know.
Mr. TRULY. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you
thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth
floor, one of the elevators was not there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock
off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator
at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs.
And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really
heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed
stairwell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting
some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone
back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then,
is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?
Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then
went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?
Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor,
Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh
floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't
take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped.
He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from
there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth
floor.
I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first
floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the
time we got down that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And then you got down eventually to the first floor?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to
go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down
again?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is
hard to say.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or
what did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see
anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There
was a regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes
at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west
corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over
there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other
employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was
not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other
warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen
him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and
he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here
missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had
another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there
or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said,
"Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse,
and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and
address at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just
have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas
address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown
on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other
employees who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was
missing.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?
Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing
a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over
here--"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave
him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell
Captain Fritz."
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was
talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some
nature--I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we
will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to
the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor.
And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin
stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted
to tell him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over
about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that
effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and
telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr.
Truly. We will take care of it."
And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.
There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me
who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird,
or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know
anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.
I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something
out."
So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over
to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth
floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over
there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either
the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I
went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot
remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I
didn't know at the time--I don't know how long they had the things.
Mr. BELIN. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some
bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going
to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490,
and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures
were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?
The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?
Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when
all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken,
no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you
not?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been
there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years.
They were there at the time of November 22.
Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you
state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the
bins are located?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins?
Mr. TRULY. You cannot.
Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the
southwest corner.
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth
floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if
you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new
plywood floor around November 22d?