Mr. JENNER. Now, does this private driveway enter on Elsbeth Street?
Mr. TOBIAS. The private driveway comes off from Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. Put an arrow there, will you?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's it.
Mr. JENNER. And that's the private driveway?
Mr. TOBIAS. Now, his apartment was this one here.
Mr. JENNER. Draw a line across there, and put in the apartment number.
Mr. TOBIAS. No. 2.
Mr. JENNER. And at what address?
Mr. TOBIAS. This is 604.
Mr. JENNER. All right; write that in there, and now we've got that
located.
Mr. TOBIAS. [Witness complied with request of Counsel Jenner.] He had
an outside entrance--this is another apartment here, No. 1.
Mr. JENNER. Also on the ground floor?
Mr. TOBIAS. Also on the ground floor. They both used the same entrance
here.
Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" there.
Mr. TOBIAS. All the rest of the apartments--of course, there is an
apartment here, and the same here [indicating]. It's two-story and the
same thing upstairs.
Mr. JENNER. What is the apartment number that is right in back of that
patio?
Mr. TOBIAS. This is No. 6.
Mr. JENNER. And the one to the right?
Mr. TOBIAS. This is No. 5.
Mr. JENNER. And the one in front of that?
Mr. TOBIAS. This is my apartment here.
Mr. JENNER. Number what?
Mr. TOBIAS. No. 7.
Mr. JENNER. And what address is that on Elsbeth?
Mr. TOBIAS. This is 602.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Write that in and now we're got it. Now, what I
want you to tell me about--is--tell me about that patio, how big is it?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, let's see, that must be 25 to 30 feet deep.
Mr. JENNER. How far across?
Mr. TOBIAS. About the same thing across.
Mr. JENNER. Does it have shrubbery and trees?
Mr. TOBIAS. You see, you have a front door--this is our front entrance
here.
Mr. JENNER. Will you put a little square there?
Mr. TOBIAS. For these two apartments and for these three apartments
here----
Mr. JENNER. I asked Mrs. Tobias, and I'm going to ask you this, because
you are more accustomed to this sort of thing. Could a man stand in
that patio and dry sight a firearm or a weapon and not be noticed?
Mr. TOBIAS. In the summertime--yes; because along here is shrubbery and
along here is shrubbery. [Indicating.]
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you put a figure in there, because we need it
for the record and let's call that your first figure here--let's put an
"A" in there, and the other one "B". Now, those are shrubs or shrubbery?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right; and there is a brick wall across here.
Mr. JENNER. How high is that brick wall?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's about 18 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Just a low wall?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and there are shrubs on the outside of that wall and
on the inside of the patio area here and in here in the center I have a
round circle dug out and have got some kind of grass that grows right
on there but that wouldn't amount to nothing.
Mr. JENNER. That shrubbery that is facing on Elsbeth Street, how tall
is that?
Mr. TOBIAS. This shrubbery, now, faces these buildings here and it
faces this apartment here.
Mr. JENNER. The "A" shrubbery faces the 604 address bank of apartments,
and the "B" shrubbery faces your apartment?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; No. 7. Now, this shrubbery is about 3 to 4 feet high.
Mr. JENNER. That's the "A" shrubbery?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. This shrubbery over here is not so high because some
of it died on me and I had to dig it up, but here now I have a big tree.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "here," you are pointing to the center?
Mr. TOBIAS. Up here I have two pieces of shrubbery on each side of that.
Mr. JENNER. The tree is what kind of a tree?
Mr. TOBIAS. It's a fir tree.
Mr. JENNER. It's solid right down to the ground?
Mr. TOBIAS. That fir is up there maybe 25 feet high.
Mr. JENNER. So, somebody could stand behind the tree, and dry sight a
rifle and not be seen from Elsbeth Street?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, pursuing this same subject--first, Elsbeth Street runs
in what direction?
Mr. TOBIAS. North and south.
Mr. JENNER. Which is the north end--the 604 side or your side?
Mr. TOBIAS. Let me see, now. I get confused in directions.
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's put an "N" there for north and put an "S" up
there for south and then over this way is to the east.
Mr. TOBIAS. And this is west.
Mr. JENNER. And if that is west, then this must be south and this must
be north.
Mr. TOBIAS. This is just exactly the way the apartment sets; this is
west here.
Mr. JENNER. Put a "W" there and put an "E" up at the top for east.
Mr. TOBIAS. I get confused with this direction myself here.
Mr. JENNER. Calling your attention to the rear entrance from the
parkway, the driveway, what is there to the north of that, another
building?
Mr. TOBIAS. There is a house here.
Mr. JENNER. A single-family dwelling?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; an old lady 80 years old lives there.
Mr. JENNER. And is that all open except for that house?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. This is a regular driveway. We have our
driveway here and she has her driveway too, you see.
Mr. JENNER. All right; put another driveway in there. I'm going to
mark that second driveway, if I might. [Counsel Jenner marked the
instruments as stated.] There is a single-family dwelling, then?
Mr. TOBIAS. She keeps--this old lady there keeps roomers.
Mr. JENNER. She does?
Mr. TOBIAS. What I mean, she just has just a room.
Mr. JENNER. Is that house about in here?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; that would be on the other side of the driveway here.
Mr. JENNER. The other side of where I have marked this second driveway?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; facing Elspeth.
Mr. JENNER. What is the open space, say, between your building line and
the single family dwelling?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, that must be--that can't be more than 25 feet because
there are 2 driveways there.
Mr. JENNER. Could a man dry sighting a weapon, holding a rifle outside
that rear entrance, do so without being detected and without people
noticing it?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, you've got the streets on Elspeth and people in that
house might see it, because her roomers are right there by that door.
Mr. JENNER. Now, people who are passing by or looking out of your
window or looking out from this rooming house could see that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever say anything to you about Oswald having a
weapon?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. A firearm?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Using it--sighting it?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you noticed that there had
been brought near the premises or on it or in his possession a package?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never did see it because he always used his back door
and I was over on the other side.
Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon me--a package that to you you would
recognize as a rifle?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. That possibly was a rifle?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or, a bunch of curtain rods or window shades or something
of that nature?
Mr. TOBIAS. No. No; I've never seen nothing like that. I don't even
remember the parcel post man ever leaving anything there--a package or
anything. I never was in his apartment but twice, I don't think, while
he lived there. I went in there with the exterminators twice, once a
month, and we exterminated the place for cockroaches, that's one thing
we don't like around here, and, of course, I had to get her permission
to go in there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and she was an awful nice girl.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did she understand you when you spoke to her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was--would come out in her front yard--I sat in
her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring the baby out and,
of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she
could, because he didn't want her to anyway.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn't want her to learn
it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she give any reason?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she said people will be mean to her. She got
acquainted with them. She got acquainted with them and she used to come
over to the house and sit with the wife a lot and the wife would talk
to her.
Mr. JENNER. And you moved in and around a lot, did you?
Mr. TOBIAS. Do you mean me--I was out around a lot?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I mean you--you were around and you saw her with the
child and you saw her in the apartment?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I was around all the time--there is no night that goes
by before I got to bed that I don't make a trip around the house.
Mr. JENNER. You had an accident; when was that?
Mr. TOBIAS. In October, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER. And were you confined in your apartment for quite a while?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I was there a week before I went to the hospital and I
was in the hospital a week or better, and then I come home and I didn't
do much but lay around--I had an awful concussion.
Mr. JENNER. That's what I understand--are you feeling better now?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, I'm getting along all right now, only lost the hearing
out of this ear.
Mr. JENNER. But you did see Marina in and around your apartment and you
saw her out in the walk, walking the baby and she was friendly, was she?
Mr. TOBIAS. She was always friendly.
Mr. JENNER. A very nice girl?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Clean and neat?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And attended to her child?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she took care of her baby, that's for sure, and it
was always clean.
Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to be pleasant and talk to you people to
the limited extent she was able to do, is that a fair statement?
Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't hear you.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, she would say a few words to you--she had a limited
command of English?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. But you tried to communicate with her and she with you?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At least to a limited extent?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I talked to her and, of course, she wouldn't say
nothing back and Oswald, I tried to talk to him several times and all I
could get of him was a grunt. He was a kind of a guy that wouldn't talk
to you at all.
Mr. JENNER. Is that right?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he was a peculiar duck.
Mr. JENNER. How did your other tenants feel toward Oswald?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they didn't like it.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't like what?
Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't like the way he beat her all the time.
Mr. JENNER. They complained to you that he manhandled her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and
he told me, he said, "I think that man over there is going to kill that
girl," and I said, "I can't do a darn thing about it." I says, "That's
domestic troubles and I don't jump into a man and a woman's fighting,"
which I don't. If he hurts her bad, then I'll have to take it up, but
not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door.
Mr. JENNER. When was that, when did that occur?
Mr. TOBIAS. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. When did that occur?
Mr. TOBIAS. While he was living there--along toward the last. I think
it was the last month he was there.
Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I was going by there--and I cleaned the halls, and I
was sweeping out the hall and I seen the window was broken and I spoke
to him about it and he said, "I'll get it in" and he never did get it
in.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you how it happened?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any covering up over it?
Mr. TOBIAS. He got to fighting so much around there that I told the man
that owned it, Mr. Jurek, so him and his wife went over there one night
and told him that he was making too much noise with their fighting and
they had to quit or move, so they moved.
Mr. JENNER. You found this fellow pretty close-mouthed and laconic?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; he was--he didn't say nothing to nobody.
Mr. JENNER. On the other hand, you found her to be pleasant, neat and a
delightful young lady?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. A good mother?
Mr. TOBIAS. She came over too, when he came over to use the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. When was that--do you remember a particular incidence?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, well, one time--yes--somebody by the name of George
called.
Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on that occasion?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; mother answered it and I don't hardly ever answer the
phone because I can't hear good and this fellow wanted Oswald and she
asked him, I understand, who it was and she said it was George and I
went over and told Oswald that he was wanted on the phone and they came
over there and they both talked and they both talked in their language.
Mr. JENNER. You heard his end of the telephone conversation, did you?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; you couldn't--because they talked in their language.
Mr. JENNER. You heard him, is all I asked you?
Mr. TOBIAS. All I could hear--I could hear him talking but I didn't
know what they were talking about.
Mr. JENNER. You were present in the room, is all I mean.
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; we were there.
Mr. JENNER. And you heard him speak over the telephone?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he spoke in some foreign tongue?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you couldn't understand?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the whole conversation was in this foreign tongue?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; they both talked.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear the other fellow on the other end?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. You assumed that he was likewise talking in the same
language?
Mr. TOBIAS. I imagine so--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you curious about that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--I didn't like it, because when anybody says anything,
I like to know what they are talking about.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about it?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; because it's a private phone and I pay my own phone
bill, and I don't figure it's up to the people in the apartments to be
using my phone all the time, and we let him understand that.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what language that was he was speaking in?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, he came over--when he first came in he told us he was
Czech.
Mr. JENNER. When was this--this 3 weeks other time?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; that was after he moved in, and my landlady is
Czechoslovakian.
Mr. JENNER. Your landlady is Czechoslovakian?
Mr. TOBIAS. My landlady is Czechoslovakian herself, and so one day when
Marion was over at the house, Mrs. Oswald was in there--she had come in
there and sat down.
Mr. JENNER. This was an occasion when Marina, or do you mean the
landlady, Marion came in?
Mr. TOBIAS. I say Mrs. Jurek was there.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Jurek was in your apartment?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she came to collect the rent and Mrs. Oswald was in
there.
Mr. JENNER. She was visiting?
Mr. TOBIAS. And my wife says. "Mrs. Jurek, Mrs. Oswald is
Czechoslovakian." Mrs. Jurek says, "All right, speak something. I'm
Czech too." She says, "No, we're not Czech, we're Russian, but my
husband doesn't want us to say that because people will be mean to us."
Mr. JENNER. How do you know she said that?
Mr. TOBIAS. I was there.