The testimony of M. F. Tobias, Sr., was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April
2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. I understand you suffered an injury in an automobile
accident?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I ain't as young as I used to be since that.
Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. M. F. Tobias, Sr.?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And he lives at 602 604 Elsbeth Street, Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. TOBIAS. Six two and six four.
Mr. JENNER. And he lives with Mrs. Tobias and you manage an apartment
building at that address?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right; the wife and I together.
Mr. JENNER. Would you stand and be sworn, sir?
Mr. Tobias, in your testimony you are about to give, do you swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. TOBIAS. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Thank, you, sir.
Mr. Tobias, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission. I understand from Mrs. Tobias that
you and she received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint
Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the President's Commission?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, creating
the Commission and appointing it and fixing its powers and duties and
obligations, and also a copy of our rules and regulations for the
taking of testimony. From those papers, I assume you are aware of the
fact that at least our general direction is to investigate all the
facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. In the course of doing that, there are many people who, in
their pursuit of their livelihoods, came in contact with a man by the
name of Lee Oswald, and we understand you folks did and I would like to
ask you a few questions about it.
Mr. TOBIAS. Go ahead; I'm willing to answer all I can.
Mr. JENNER. You are aged what?
Mr. TOBIAS. Sixty-seven.
Mr. JENNER. You are a native-born American?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Born in Battle Creek, Mich.?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And your family--you raised two or three boys, as I
understand it?
Mr. TOBIAS. I've got two boys and two girls.
Mr. JENNER. You have two boys and two girls and they are all adults and
married now, I assume?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you are retired at the moment?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you and Mrs. Tobias manage this building on Elsbeth
Street here in Dallas?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And in the course of your managing that building, you came
in contact with a person by the name of Lee Oswald; is that so?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I can tell you one thing, he was a funny duck. He
came up there--maybe 3 weeks before he rented it.
Mr. JENNER. He rented it on November 3, 1962?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; but he came there maybe 3 weeks before that.
Mr. JENNER. That would be in October. He was alone, was he?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and looked at the apartment. I told him what I wanted
for it and I told him what the score was--we didn't allow no drinking
or no parties, which I don't, and he says, "My wife isn't here"----
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mr. Tobias, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. Okay; now, that's what we want to get on the record. Repeat
that.
Mr. TOBIAS. I tell them like this--what they drink in their apartment
is their business, but when they get noisy that's mine. My business.
Then, he came back----
Mr. JENNER. Was he alone?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he wanted to look at the apartment again, which
happened to still be vacant, and then he wanted to go around the house.
Mr. JENNER. Around the apartment itself?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Before you is Tobias Exhibit No. 1, and that is Mrs.
Tobias' conception of a plat of your building. Now, is there anything
wrong with that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it ain't the way I would have drawed it, because this
building is kind of in a----
Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mrs. Tobias has drawn that green and I hand you
now a red pen and ask you to draw one.
Mr. TOBIAS. Do you want me to drawn another one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; let's mark it "Tobias Exhibit No. 2," first.
(The witness marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel
Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. All right; draw me a plat of the building on the ground
floor, that is the bottom surface.
(Witness Tobias drew the plat requested by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Tobias has drawn a =U=-shaped outline.
Mr. TOBIAS. This is all trees and shrubs in here.
Mr. JENNER. In the =U= portion, that is a court or a patio, is it?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's trees and shrubs?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which is Elsbeth Street? You are now writing "Elsbeth
Street" and this court faces on Elsbeth Street, does it?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TOBIAS. This is a private driveway through here.
Mr. JENNER. Does the private driveway swing around to the rear?
Mr. TOBIAS. And this is a line back here, a property line. Now, this is
Davis Street here.
Mr. JENNER. All right, write Davis Street on there lengthwise, will you?