Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. "And my husband doesn't want people to know that because
people will be mean to me?"
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She said that much in English so that you would understand
it?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That's quite a bit of English.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I know. That's what I'm trying to tell you--she knew
more English than she let on she did.
Mr. JENNER. That's of interest to us--she was able to communicate that
whole idea to you in English?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And did she speak some Russian then to this lady?
Mr. TOBIAS. No--after she told Mrs. Jurek she was Russian, that was it,
because Mrs. Jurek didn't--she was Czech and she didn't know no Russian.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that Marina visited in your apartment rather
frequently?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, she come over there very seldom--she came over there.
Mr. JENNER. Very seldom?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she come over there a couple of times a week.
Mr. JENNER. She did come over that often, though?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she would come over there and sit and the wife would
talk to her, because my wife is a great hand to sew, and she would
watch the wife and the little baby would play, but what burned me
up--I'm a great lover of children, and when I tried to get next to that
little baby sitting in a wheelchair----
Mr. JENNER. In a stroller?
Mr. TOBIAS. In a stroller and as I would walk up to it and try to talk
to it, she just acted as if she was scared to death.
Mr. JENNER. Is that so--was that unusual?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it is to me.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, in your experience?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; because I haven't found a baby yet that I couldn't
take over.
Mr. JENNER. Did you finally win the baby over?
Mr. TOBIAS. No--they didn't stay there that long. That's why he
moved--he moved in that trailer, in that stroller.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. TOBIAS. That was after--when he left my place. When he moved from
my place up around the corner around a block and a half and he moved
everything in that stroller.
Mr. JENNER. Was that after the owners of the building had come and told
him that he was making too much noise or too much trouble and that they
suggested he might find another apartment?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see, this was on a Sunday, wasn't it, March 3?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now--I think that he stayed there, a couple of days,
if I'm not mistaken over his rent period.
Mr. JENNER. He had paid his rent, though?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; he had paid his rent. You see, the last month that he
paid, the books will show you that he come in there with $60 and that's
all he had, he said, and then he would come back later with the $8,
which he did do.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias has furnished your rent receipts and we have
recited that into the record, so we have a record of that. He didn't
move out on the 3d, he lacked a couple of days, is that right?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, there might have been a day or two in there in his
getting out.
Mr. JENNER. Did he pay for those extra days?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him to pay?
Mr. TOBIAS. No--I didn't. We asked him to pay for the window, but he
didn't pay for it either.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever come back and ask you for his $5 deposit, the
key deposit?
Mr. TOBIAS. No, he never did--not to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender the key?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out?
Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't understand it.
Mr. JENNER. What was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it was in pretty good shape.
Mr. JENNER. It was?
Mr. TOBIAS. It was pretty clean--there was one thing I noticed and that
was when I went in there with the exterminator--we have beds in there,
the beds that we have in there has these kind of bookshelves at the top
of them, and he had worlds and worlds of books.
Mr. JENNER. He did?
Mr. TOBIAS. They were all Russian--you would see this Russian and this
Russian and this Russian and that, but I didn't touch one of them.
Mr. JENNER. But they were either Russian language books?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, that I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they were books about Russia?
Mr. TOBIAS. They were on Russia, because the headline on the side of it
here was Russian.
Mr. JENNER. On the heel of the book?
Mr. TOBIAS. And it would just be Russian I or Russian II or something
like that and that was to me kinda--looked kinda odd to me; of course,
I didn't think nothing of it.
Mr. JENNER. Were they subscribers to newspapers?
Mr. TOBIAS. I think he took the Morning News, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. JENNER. He paid the rent promptly?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; by the month.
Mr. JENNER. By the month and in cash?
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right, and the only time he got behind was that one
month--that one time there with the $8 and then he made that up.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him where he was working?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. How he was making his money?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; you didn't discuss nothing with that boy.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't volunteer it and even if you tried, you couldn't
have gotten anything--is that about it?
Mr. TOBIAS. His card--when he made out his card--when he made out his
card, that's where I slipped up a little, I guess. He made out his card
that he was in the service. Of course, I should have questioned him
more, which I didn't do, but in the business in the apartment house you
get so darned many jokers in there.
Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't doubt it--was there an occasion when Marina
moved out for a short time?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Describe that, please.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now, this is when I was goofy-headed.
Mr. JENNER. You mean that followed your accident?
Mr. TOBIAS. I hadn't been home from the hospital very long, but we came
back from somewhere--I don't know where, and we seen a car out there
and they were loading it up and the wife jumped out of the car and she
said, "Well, I guess the Oswalds are moving. We'll find out."
She goes around and goes in the front door and back down to the
door and she meets a man and she says. "What are they doing--moving
out?" And he tells her that he's moving Mrs. Oswald away for a short
time. So, I don't know whether it was the same guy or another guy,
but anyway, there was a fellow that came around to the front with an
armload of stuff--but the man I seen was a tall man, about 6-foot tall
and dark complected and a slight mustache. That was the man that I saw.
Mr. JENNER. How big a man was he?
Mr. TOBIAS. He was a tall man--6-foot tall.
Mr. JENNER. At least 6-foot--he might have been taller?
Mr. TOBIAS. He could have been taller.
Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Bob?
Mr. DAVIS. Six foot four inches.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis will stand up and he is 6 foot 4 inches.
Mr. TOBIAS. He was about like him--maybe a little shorter, but just
about that height.
Mr. JENNER. About that build?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--just about the same build.
Mr. JENNER. What did he weigh--a couple of hundred pounds or a hundred
and ninety?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, probably a hundred ninety to two hundred pounds.
Mr. DAVIS. I weigh about 195.
Mr. TOBIAS. That's what I weigh.
Mr. JENNER. What did this man say?
Mr. TOBIAS. He said he was moving Mrs. Oswald for a few days--he told
the wife that. He never said nothing to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the automobile they were in?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mr. TOBIAS. It was a convertible--a red one.
Mr. JENNER. Red?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what make it was?
Mr. TOBIAS. No, I don't--I had seen it there before.
Mr. JENNER. When did this occur?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I guess maybe she moved out in March.
Mr. JENNER. Was--with respect to your illness, was it before your
illness or after--before your accident or after?
Mr. TOBIAS. That was after my accident. You see, I was goofy-headed
right around in that period of time.
Mr. JENNER. From your concussion?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; in fact, I have been goofy-headed all of my life, but
I was worse then.
Mr. JENNER. You said you saw this red convertible around the apartment
on prior occasions?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I had seen the car there once before.
Mr. JENNER. At least once?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been more?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, no, I won't say any more than that, but I know I have
seen it there once before that time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen this man there before?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him before. You see, they can drive right
down that driveway and park in front of this door here, and I couldn't
see them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they could come in from the rear, couldn't they, they
could come in off of Davis Street?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they could come up around off of Davis and come up
through here too.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have anybody visit there, in addition to this man?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, there was a lady came there to see about the baby one
day and she said she had got a call that the baby was sick and they
didn't have no money to buy it any medicine and my wife took her over
there and she said she had been trying to get in, but there wouldn't
nobody answer the door and my wife went over there and she hammered on
the door and Oswald, instead of him coming to the front door, he goes
out this back door and comes all the way around to the front.
Mr. JENNER. That's kind of strange.
Mr. TOBIAS. That's right--that's the kind of guy he was, and then there
was a blonde headed woman there one time.
Mr. JENNER. A blonde?
Mr. TOBIAS. She was looking for Oswald--for the Oswalds, too.
Mr. JENNER. Describe her?
Mr. TOBIAS. She got in and she went in the house.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I imagine she weighed around 120 pounds and was
around 5 foot 3 inches or 4 inches.
Mr. JENNER. A slender woman?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a slender, blonde headed--a pretty woman. This
other woman that came there wanted to see about the baby, and she was
kind of a dark-haired woman and I imagine she would weigh around 100
pounds or 110, but she was rather short, she was about 5 feet tall.
Mr. JENNER. She was 100 pounds and 5 feet what?
Mr. TOBIAS. She was around 5 foot--she wasn't too large.
Mr. JENNER. She was kind of slender too, then, a little heavier than
the other one?
Mr TOBIAS. Yes, she was a little heavier.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of these ladies identify themselves in any way?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say they lived in Dallas or worked in
Dallas?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, let me see--there's one of them, I think this
dark-headed woman, said she worked here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the one you described first?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; the dark-headed woman--the blonde--I don't know about
her, the wife talked to her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds after they left, after they moved
out of the apartment?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I don't know that I ever seen him, but I seen her as
she went by the house a couple of times wheeling the baby and I didn't
even know where they moved to until one night my car was in a wreck and
I didn't have nothing and the wife and I walked a lot and I went around
the corner and I seen her upstairs in an apartment window and that was
where they moved to. I don't know how long they stayed there. She went
by the house not more than 3 or 4 weeks ago here and she had a bunch of
men in the car one night and waved--she knew me.
Mr. JENNER. She waved to you 2 or 3 weeks ago?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get a good look at her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, yes--she was sitting in the back seat. She had the
little girl with her.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a convertible?
Mr. TOBIAS. No, no; that was a big car--I don't know what kind of car
it was.
Mr. JENNER. You have seen some pictures of Jack Ruby posted in the
newspaper and on television?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This man that came to move Marina out of there for a
temporary visit, did he look like Jack Ruby?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. How long was she away?
Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, she wouldn't have been away, well, I imagine she was
gone about 2 weeks. I never did know when she came back.
Mr. JENNER. She was gone temporarily, a week to 2 weeks, or something
of that kind?
Mr. TOBIAS. She was gone longer than that--she was gone a couple of
weeks at least.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you about that sojourn of hers?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask her?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did your wife?
Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't ask her nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your wife did?
Mr. TOBIAS. No--I don't know whether she did or not.
Mr. JENNER. At least your wife never reported it to you?
Mr. TOBIAS. If my wife said anything, or if she had said anything to my
wife, she would have told me. My wife and I been together 43 years.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your observations, I know you have already done it
to some extent, but give me your observations as to the personality of
this man.
Mr. TOBIAS. Ruby?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. TOBIAS. You mean Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Yes--you saw him off and on for about 4 months.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now, he was the kind of a guy that went around with
his lips tight and if you did say anything to him he would answer you
just as darn quick as he could and just be sharp as he could and so he
didn't have to do that to me only a couple of times and I didn't say
nothing more to him.
Mr. JENNER. You got the message?
Mr. TOBIAS. And I figured that if he didn't want to talk to me, I
didn't want to talk to him. He come over and paid his rent, he paid his
rent and I give him a receipt, and that was all there was to it.
Mr. JENNER. You never had any pleasantries on that occasion?
Mr. TOBIAS. No, no; there was no good morning or no good night or
nothing about it, and he would get up and go to the store to get the
groceries and she would carry the groceries and he would lead the way.
Mr. JENNER. You saw that on more than one occasion?
Mr. TOBIAS. I saw it a lot of times.
Mr. JENNER. She did the lugging?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an automobile?
Mr. TOBIAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any conversation with him or conversation
occurred in your presence as to whether he could drive an automobile?
Mr. TOBIAS. No--no.
Mr. JENNER. And when they moved away, they moved away in the
perambulator?
Mr. TOBIAS. They moved away in that stroller.
Mr. JENNER. They couldn't have had very much in the way of household
equipment?
Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't have very much--all he had was books and what
little dishes they had and that wasn't very many and the baby bed.
Mr. JENNER. You did see Marina from time to time after they moved out
of the apartment?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I have seen her maybe, I'll say three or four
times--that's all I've seen her. She would go by and she would always
wave a hand at me and she would go down--I don't know to where to heck
she ever went to, but she always--when she was even living there, she
would go out onto Davis and I would watch her as she would go on up
to Zangs Street going towards town. Whether she was going to go see
somebody or just going for a walk, that, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Tobias, is there anything that occurs to you that you
think might be helpful to the Commission?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; I told you just like I told the FBI--I have tried to be
honest with all them and I have sat down and studied it and after the
FBI had come out there and see if I could think of anything else and I
told you just like I told the other 10--there has been 10 of them out
there. I even had one guy from the Detroit Times down there. Of course,
I was raised in Michigan and I told him to keep my name out of it and
he did and he didn't put it in there. All my people are up there and I
didn't want them to get tangled up in it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I have concluded my questioning. If there is nothing
further you want to add, we appreciate this very much, your coming in,
and you might think that you are not furnishing us anything, but there
are kernels, you know, and pieces of the puzzle--there are small ones
and big ones. I offer Tobias Exhibit No. 2 in evidence.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, like I told my wife--anytime we can help out we will
and if you want us again, we are willing.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your cooperation. These are your original
receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return
them to you and thank you very much for bringing them.
Mr. TOBIAS. I have one of these I keep ever since I been in that
apartment and I been there for 3 years and a half and I have got every
receipt I ever wrote and I keep it on records and lots of times I have
to go back to them and there's only one person that doesn't get into
them and that's the credit department.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Tobias, this deposition will be written up
in due course and you may read it and sign it. If you wish, you may
waive that--it's a privilege and a right you have if you want to sign
it, and if you want to waive it that's all right.
Mr. TOBIAS. It would be sent to me?
Mr. JENNER. You would have to come in here to read it.
Mr. TOBIAS. Okay.
Mr. JENNER. If you want to come in and read it you call Barefoot
Sanders' office, that's the U.S. Attorney's Office, and they will tell
you when it is ready to be read. Mrs. Tobias decided she would forego
that privilege--she didn't want to come in and read it.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I'll talk to her too.
Mr. JENNER. Okay; you'll call in and Mr. Sanders will probably call
you, but you will hear from him.
Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much.
[At this point Mrs. Tobias, the wife of the deponent, entered the
deposing room.]
Mr. TOBIAS. The wife wants to talk to you about something.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, you said something about signing this; how is that
going to be?
Mr. JENNER. Well, your husband decided he would like to see his and you
might like to see yours, so you might as well see yours?
Mrs. TOBIAS. You will call us--you will let us know?
Mr. TOBIAS. We will come in here, mother, and if you want to sign it,
and if you don't want to sign it we won't sign it.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.
Mr. JENNER. Now, wait a minute--you come down and read it and if there
are any errors in it, that you want to correct, you correct them, but
you aren't going to refuse to sign it, are you?
Mr. TOBIAS. No; I don't imagine I will.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Do you know what he said, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. TOBIAS. We got this letter and he said, "I thought we was going to
get around this Warren Commission--I didn't think we were going to have
to go before the Warren Commission."
Is this going to be the end of it or is there still going to be some
more?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't tell you whether it will be the end of it or
not.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, we may go from here--that letter said any place in
the United States and if it did we would have to go; okay?
Mr. JENNER. That's right. If you have to come to Washington, your
transportation will be paid.
Mr. TOBIAS. That's all right, but just make it summertime.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, of course we will be glad to come.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you both for coming.