Mr. JENNER. The witness is again referring to the Tobias Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs. TOBIAS. We parked here.
Mr. JENNER. You parked on Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, we don't have garages, so we just parked around over
here, and over here in this driveway was this big convertible.
Mr. JENNER. There was a convertible in the driveway which is located to
the rear of the Oswald apartment--you saw a convertible--what kind was
it--are you familiar with automobiles?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I don't drive--my husband and I have a different
opinion on that, too.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband see it on that occasion?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well he did--he said he had seen it, but I thought it was
a light car, a cream color.
Mr. JENNER. A cream-colored car?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I thought it was.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a sedan, two-door or four-door?
Mrs. TOBIAS. It was a convertible is what it was with the top back--the
top was back and there was a baby bed in that convertible and then
there was some clothing in there, and when we stopped up there, I said
to my husband, "I think someone is moving out." Now, he went over
home--I thought he did and I said, "I think I'll go over and check."
Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I walked in the hallway and as I walked in the hallway a
fellow came out----
Mr. JENNER. What did he look like?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, my husband and I have a different opinion on that.
Mr. JENNER. I just want your view.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he was a pretty-good-sized fellow--he was larger
than Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. A big man?
Mrs. TOBIAS. He was larger than Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say he weighed?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I'm poor judging that, too.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm going to stand up. I'm 5 foot 11 inches and I
weigh about 153 pounds.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he could have been a little heavier than you.
Mr. JENNER. A little taller?
Mrs. TOBIAS. He could have been a little taller and a little heavier.
Mr. JENNER. As tall as 6 foot 6?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I doubt if he was--you are how much--5 what?
Mr. JENNER. I am 5 feet 11 inches--one inch shorter than 6 feet.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he could have been right around there.
Mr. JENNER. But heavier than I am?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I believe he was heavier than you.
Mr. JENNER. What color hair did he have?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he had dark hair--kind of brown, I guess, and when
I walked in the hallway, he walked out. I said, "What's coming off?"
He said, "Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile--or moving out" or
something like that--that's the way he said it.
Mr. JENNER. How old was this man?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Gee, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What is your judgment?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, perhaps 50--50 I would say or even in his late
fifties.
Mr. JENNER. Well, 50 and late fifties is a big difference.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, maybe he was a little over 50 and maybe he was right
around 50--he wasn't an old man.
Mr. JENNER. He was 50 more or less?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--it would have been--that's what I thought.
Mr. JENNER. All right. How was he dressed?
Mrs. TOBIAS. With a brown--he had on a brown suit.
Mr. JENNER. Was he neatly dressed?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't have slacks on?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I think that was a suit--I think that was a suit.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't wear shorts?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. How did he act?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, what he said--he walked out in the hallway, and I
said, "What's coming off?" because I knew somebody was moving so, I
didn't see Mrs. Oswald at all, now, but Oswald walked out the door and
this fellow walked out in the hall and he was the one that met me and
he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile--moving out for
awhile."
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether Mr. Oswald was going to
remain?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all that was said and I went on home.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see her?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No, I didn't see Mrs. Oswald at all, and I don't know when
they moved out.
Mr. JENNER. Did they all move out or just Marina?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all he said--he just said, "Mrs. Oswald is going
away for awhile or moving out for awhile."
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention that she had moved?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I didn't see her around--that's true, I didn't see her
around.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him around, that is, Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; because I think he used that back entrance because--I
really do think he must have used that back entrance because you didn't
see him much, not even when Mrs. Oswald was there, only when you see
them go out together.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was in the month of November?
Mrs. TOBIAS. It would have to have been.
Mr. JENNER. And it was something up to November 27--did he pay his rent
for the month of December?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; it's all here.
Mr. JENNER. All right; let's look at it.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Which one do we have now--which one is this?
Mr. JENNER. That's November.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, you want all the way down--don't you?
Mr. JENNER. Give me the next one--that would be December--maybe I can
help you with this.
Mrs. TOBIAS. This is the deposit and the rent there.
Mr. JENNER. This is the initial payment--now, I will look for December.
Mrs. TOBIAS. All right, here it is--starting here.
Mr. JENNER. You have a receipt No. 0154 in your book of original
receipts here, dated December 6, 1962, reciting, "Received from L. H.
Oswald--$68 for rental of apartment No. 2, from December 3, 1962, to
January 3, 1963. Paid in cash. Signed by Mrs. M. F. Tobias, Sr."
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's when I had to take over.
Mr. JENNER. That's your signature?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That is right--after my husband was sick.
Mr. JENNER. Did he pay that to you in cash?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did--he never gave checks.
Mr. JENNER. And he handed it to your personally, so you knew on that
occasion, which was the 6th of December 1962, that he was there?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was paying his rent for the month of December?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald still absent?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, I don't know how long she was gone. Now, we really
don't--my husband said he didn't--he didn't see her around.
Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to when you first saw her?
Mrs. TOBIAS. After she came back?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it could have been another week or 10 days.
Mr. JENNER. So that would be in the month of December 1962--she was
absent a week or 10 days?
Mrs. TOBIAS. She would have had to been because I didn't see her
around, and they always kept their blinds down, you know, the shades
was always pulled.
Mr. JENNER. They were?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes--day and night, you never seen any shades up over
there, their shades was always down.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't that strange?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, a lot of my tenants do--we don't think nothing about
it. We've got so many of them that keeps them down. I always think
there must be something wrong when they keep them down, but we don't
bother our tenants.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he paid his rent for the month of January 1963, did he
not, and he paid it to you?
Mrs. TOBIAS. If it's on there.
Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a receipt here No. 0178, dated January 4,
1963, "issued to L. H. Oswald for $68 for the rent of Apartment No. 2
from January 3, 1963, to and including February 3, 1963," and it is
signed M. F. Tobias, Sr.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, now, he signed that one.
Mr. JENNER. Is that his signature or yours?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; that's his--that's his.
Mr. JENNER. That rent was paid in cash, was it?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he gave cash.
Mr. JENNER. To him; to your husband?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he always gave cash.
Mr. JENNER. And as of that time she was back in the apartment?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; she was--you see this was later after she had
come back and when she got friendly and would come over, and she would
come over nearly every afternoon later, but she didn't come around--I
didn't see her so much when they first moved in. You see, I told you,
when they first moved in, I said to my husband, "I thought this was
the man with the wife and child?" He said, "Yes, he told me that", but
perhaps she wasn't around at the beginning for awhile.
Mr. JENNER. Did they have any guests, any callers?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, one lady came to my door one evening.
Mr. JENNER. About when?
Mrs. TOBIAS. In the evening--you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. TOBIAS. It was beginning to get dark.
Mr. JENNER. When was it--was it the evening of the weekday or weekend?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; it must have been a weekday because she said she had
had a call. She came to my door and knocked.
Mr. JENNER. The lady did?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what month was it.
Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't even know that. She said she had been trying to
contact Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Describe her please--age, weight--short or tall.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I let her come in, I was going to tell you, and she
was, oh, a dark lady. She said she was Russian. I talked to her awhile.
Mr. JENNER. Was she dark-skinned or light-skinned?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she wasn't a blonde, she was a brunette--she was a
real nice looking woman.
Mr. JENNER. She was white-skinned, however?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. About how old?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, perhaps 35 and maybe a little older.
Mr. JENNER. How tall was she?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, about 5 foot 3 or 5 foot 4 inches.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you judge she weighed?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she had a coat on--I don't know--I just don't really
know. She wasn't real large but she wasn't real small and she said Mrs.
Oswald had called her earlier in the day and said that the baby was
sick and she didn't have any money to take the baby to the doctor, and
she couldn't get them to the door, she sat in there and talked to us a
while and my husband says he just doesn't remember this--this was after
he had his accident, because his memory was pretty bad after he had
had this accident and I asked her if she would like to have me go over
with her and see if we could get in, and she said, "I would, because I
rang the doorbell and I rang the doorbell, and I can't get them to the
door." And, I said, "Okay, I'll go over with you." I didn't rap on the
door, I just kept ringing the doorbell. Well, now, he didn't come out
the front door.
Mr. JENNER. Which door were you rapping on? The rear or the front door?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I was ringing in the hallway, the front--I didn't rap on
the door--I just rang the doorbell. We have doorbells. Now, he didn't
come out in the hall entrance, he came around.
Mr. JENNER. Who did?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. He came around from the back?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came out of the back door and around and jumped
in the hall, and I said, "Mr. Oswald, this lady is trying to find you
people. You didn't answer." He said, "Oh, I'll take care of it." And he
ushered her right inside and that's the last I seen.
Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize him?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I guess she did, because he just took her--they had
nothing to say to each other in the hall. He just said, "Oh, I'll take
care of it."
Mr. JENNER. No words passed between them?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he just came from around.
Mr. JENNER. When she came to your place, did she identify herself
as--who she was and where she worked--did she work in the Dallas area?
Mrs. TOBIAS. She worked downtown in an office.
Mr. JENNER. She said she worked downtown in an office?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and she said she was going to see if she could help.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see that lady again?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I never seen her again and then, as I say, I seen a
blonde-headed girl come there.
Mr. JENNER. Was this later?
Mrs. TOBIAS. This was after she was there and she wanted to know which
apartment, and I showed her, and that's all I ever seen of her.
Mr. JENNER. Describe that lady, please; she was a blonde?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she was pretty slim.
Mr. JENNER. She was slender, was she?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was kind of thin.
Mr. JENNER. How tall was she?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, perhaps 5 foot 1 or 5 foot 2--maybe 3 inches.
Mr. JENNER. Not as tall as the first lady you described?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they could have been somewhere near the same height,
but she was a different type.
Mr. JENNER. She was a different type person?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a blonde.
Mr. JENNER. Did she identify herself?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; she just asked which apartment Mr. Oswald lived in and
I showed her and that's all I knew about it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she speak English?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she did--she talked to me in English.
Mr. JENNER. About when was that, with respect to the other incident you
have described?
Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean between the two of them?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I don't know whether it was a week later or 2 weeks
later, I just don't know. Just like I said, that if we had had any idea
about all this, we might have put down dates.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, sure.
Mrs. TOBIAS. But I don't--I really don't know. When they don't find the
party, they usually come to the manager, you see, and we try to help
them if we can.
Mr. JENNER. Now, going back to these conversations you had with Mrs.
Oswald about her being Russian, was there an occasion when she talked
to you about the fact that her husband didn't want people to know that
she spoke Russian?
Mrs. TOBIAS. She didn't say "speak". She said, "He doesn't want me to
tell that I am Russian."
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. TOBIAS. She said, "Because people would be mean to me,"--she said
they wouldn't be nice to her and they would be mean to her, and that
was all said about that.
Mr. JENNER. You reassured her?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I told her I didn't think that was true. I said,
"I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone would be mean to you
because I don't know why anyone should be." I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about her husband saying that he
didn't want it known that they spoke Russian or that she was Russian,
because men would come around?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No, no; that was the only occasion--the only time that
ever anything was spoken. She was pretty quiet herself.
Mr. JENNER. Did they make any long distance calls?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; they didn't on our phone. They asked us--these were
all local, but they were very quiet people. They seemed to stay to
themselves, that is, they didn't mix with no tenants and the tenants
said they never even cared to speak with them. They never seemed to
want to speak.
Mr. JENNER. That is the Oswalds?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Didn't care to mix.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't care to mix with other people--they made no
effort to become friendly?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I guess my house was the only one in the building she
was ever in.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as he was concerned, he had little contact with
you, did he, other than pay the rent?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; my husband went over and got after them about the
noise. I didn't go with him. You could speak to him and he would look
at you so funny--he just didn't have anything to say. I heard a lady
describe him in an interview on TV and that was him exactly. I told my
husband, she couldn't do a better job--because he was tight, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He was tightlipped most of the time?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Just as if his chin--just like that lady--I said to my
husband, "isn't that something how she described him?"
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of the Oswalds after they left your
building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; they used to come back by, you see. I think I
told you that my husband had had this accident. We have chairs--lawn
chairs and we were sitting in the yard and she would come back by with
the baby in her stroller and she would come up to the walk and smile.
Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she never tried to have a conversation. I walked out
to the car and I said, "You moved away and left us."
Mr. JENNER. You walked out to the car?
Mrs. TOBIAS. She was standing by a car--you see, those cars were parked
there and I knew where she went, my husband and I would take walks and
I said, "Where did you go?" And she made "214" on the car and then I
knew it was Neely--I said, "Neely."
Mr. JENNER. Did she nod her head?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a real sweet little girl as far as I was
concerned and she was a lonely person. I think she was very lonely.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you would like to add that I have not
brought out, either because I don't know about it or for any reason,
that you think might be helpful to the Commission?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they said to me that they thought this fellow
that moved her out might have been this George, but they brought
pictures--do you have pictures of the other men?
Mr. JENNER. Moved her out?
Mrs. TOBIAS. You know--that day when they moved her out.
Mr. JENNER. Do I have pictures of a man by the name of George?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; they brought some out but now, that did not look like
the man to me.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall them showing you a picture and telling you
what the man's name was?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; is it Paden?
Mr. JENNER. The FBI agent?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I think he came to see us twice.
Mr. JENNER. Well, there are so many of them.
Mrs. TOBIAS. And he was about one of the second groups that came and
then later he came back with these pictures and he asked me if I
thought that was the man I had seen in the hallway.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the man who came to help her out of the
apartment on that Sunday?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he asked me if I thought that was him and I said,
"Well, it does not look like him to me." But, there has been a
different opinion on that--my husband and I have had a different
opinion on that all along about what we thought he looked like, but
that did not look like the man to me.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I want your view.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it didn't to me--it didn't look like the same man to
me, but I couldn't swear who it was because I've only seen the picture,
and I have seen pictures of Mr. Ruby, but the day they apprehended
Oswald, of course, we were looking on the TV.
Mr. JENNER. Did it look like pictures of Mr. Ruby you have seen?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the one that he had didn't, but what I was going to
tell you--after all that happened, and I seen pictures of him, on the
TV----
Mr. JENNER. Who--of Ruby?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I told my husband, I said, "Back in my mind that
resembles the man more than anybody I have ever seen in my life,"
but now I wouldn't swear it because there was no resemblance of the
pictures they brought out there to me, and the day that they arrested
Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, we had TV on and I said to my husband, "Look
who they've got."
He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "That's the guy that shot the
President." He said, "Who is it?" I said, "That's Lee Oswald." He
said, "How do you know?" And I said, "Don't you see him on there?" I
recognized him right off and my husband's memory was kind of shook and
he's just not the same person after he had this concussion.
Mr. JENNER. I'm sorry to hear that.
Mrs. TOBIAS. This big oil truck hit my husband, and you know, just
almost got the car ahead and his nerves are just not the same--they
haven't been the same. He says he's just not as stable--he's--he just
don't seem to do what he should--it's coming gradually. The doctors say
it will come, but he's kind of shook from the accident. I wasn't with
him.
Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald around your home during those months,
how was he dressed generally?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he always just had slacks and a T-shirt or a jacket
on, you know, a sport jacket--I don't mean a sport coat like a jacket.
Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes and a T-shirt. He most always had on a T-shirt--you
didn't see him very many times without a shirt.
Mr. JENNER. I take it he got into no discussions with you or your
husband about politics?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; Lord, no.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, he got in discussions with you about
nothing?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No, no; we had no contact with him. He just paid the rent
and out he would go. He didn't make an effort to make a conversation
even when he came to use the phone.
Mr. JENNER. This is a furnished apartment?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Three rooms--do your three rooms consist of a living room,
bedroom, and kitchen?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; with the kitchen and dining room combined.
Mr. JENNER. A kitchenette?
Mrs. TOBIAS. And it is all in one and then there is a bed in the wall
in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. That opens into the living room.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; the living room is real large, but the bedrooms are
small. Now, the kitchen that he had is smaller than the one I have,
some of them are smaller, but that's the eating area, the dining area
in the kitchen.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Tobias, I can't think of anything else. I
appreciate your coming up very much.
These depositions are written up and you have the right, if you wish,
to exercise it, to read the deposition and to sign it. We don't insist
on that at all and you may waive the signing of the deposition if you
wish, and it's your option, to do either way you would prefer--if you
would prefer to read the deposition and sign it and you say so, the
U.S. attorney will get in touch with you in due course and you may come
in and read it and sign it.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, now, it doesn't matter to me because we would like
to help you if we can and if we have been helpful and I tried to tell
you exactly just what I know, which isn't very much help. I don't
think we have been too much help because he moved out before all this
happened.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you never can tell how much help you have been. You
have been of help to me and I appreciate it very much.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, my husband and I have been willing--we have had a
lot of people there.
Mr. JENNER. If you wished to waive the signing of the deposition, we
can just send it right into Washington without troubling you to sign it.
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; it is all right with me, because I have told you the
truth.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, sure.
Mrs. TOBIAS. All that is there is the truth and I have told you all I
know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, thank you very much, and I will have your husband in
now, if I may?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. Now, I couldn't swear that that was who the guy was.
Now, do you want me to leave the books with you?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; leave the books and we will give them to your husband.
Tobias Exhibit No. 1 is offered in evidence.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.