Mr. LIEBELER. Was Geraci present throughout this entire conversation?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Geraci present throughout this entire
conversation that you had with Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so, yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Mr. Blalock there?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Who?
Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k. Do you remember him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there was another young boy. What was his name did
you say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I could not tell you, because I don't remember the name
of the other boy who was there, but I think that I saw him just one
time in my life. Geraci was with another person over there, another
young boy, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention during this conversation that he could
easily derail a train, for example, by securing and fastening a chain
around the railroad track? Do you remember him mentioning something
like that?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you see; I do not exactly remember all the
details, because we were talking for about--I believe about 1 hour,
something like that, and at that moment I didn't know what was going to
happen and I didn't pay too much attention to all the things that was
being telling over there, but the result of the conversation were this
that I am telling to you. Maybe he mentioned that. I could not tell
to you that he mentioned that, because I am not--I don't remember. He
could have mentioned that, because he was talking about the experience
that he had in guerrilla warfare in the Marine Corps.
Before he left the store, he put his hand in the pocket and he offered
me money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he offer you?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I don't know. As soon as he put the hand in the
pocket and he told me, "Well, at least let me contribute to your group
with some money," at that moment I didn't have the permit from the
city hall here in New Orleans to collect money in the city, and I told
him that I could not accept his money, and I told him that if he want
to contribute to our group, he could send the money directly to the
headquarters in Miami, because they had the authorization over there
in Miami, and I gave him the number of the post office box of the
organization in Miami.
And after that, I left the store, because I had to go to the bank
to make the deposit, and Oswald was in the store talking to my
brother-in-law--that is my partner in the store--Rolando Pelaez.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that P-e-l-a-e-z?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Oswald was talking to him for about half
an hour, and later on when I came back from the bank I asked to my
brother-in-law, "Well, what do you think about this guy who was here?"
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you his name was Lee Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; he told me that his name was Lee Oswald, and he
told me one address in Magazine Street, but I didn't remember at
that moment the number, and when I asked to my brother-in-law that,
he told me that Oswald looked like really a smart person and really
interested in the fight against communism, and he gave to my brother
a good impression, and I told my brother that I could not trust him,
because--I didn't know what was inside of me, but I had some feeling
that I could not trust him. I told that to my brother that day. Next
day, on August 6, Oswald came back to the store, but I was not in the
store at that moment, and he left with my brother-in-law a Guidebook
for Marines for me with the name "L. H. Oswald" in the top of the first
page. When I came back to the store, my brother-in-law gave to me the
Guidebook for Marines. I was looking in the Guidebook for Marines. I
found interest in it and I keep it, and later--I forgot about that
just for 3 days more--on August 9 I was coming back to the store at 2
o'clock in the afternoon, and one friend of mine with the name of Celso
Hernandez came to me and told me that in Canal Street there was a young
man carrying a sign telling "Viva Fidel" in Spanish, and some other
thing about Cuba, but my friend don't speak nothing in English, and the
only thing that he understood was the "Viva Fidel" in Spanish. He told
me that he was blaming the person in Spanish, but that the person maybe
didn't understood what he was telling to him and he came to me to let
me know what was going on over there.
At that moment was in the store another Cuban with the name of Miguel
Cruz, and we went all three with a big sign that I have in the store
in color. The sign is the Statue of Liberty with a knife in the back,
and the hand, knifing her in the back, has the initials of the Soviet
Union, and it said, "Danger. Only 90 Miles from the United States Cuba
Lies in Chains." We pick up the sign and we went to Canal Street to
find the guy.
We were walking all Canal Street to Rampart Street, but we could not
find him. We were asking to different people in the street, but nobody
saw him, nobody told us, Yes, I saw him, or, He went to this side. I
decided to get a Canal streetcar to search for him, and we went in the
Canal streetcar until about the 2700 block of Canal Street, and we came
back in the Canal streetcar, but we could not find him at that moment.
I went back to the store, but just 3 or 4 minutes later one of my two
friends, Miguel Cruz, came back running and told me that the guy was
another time in Canal Street and that Celso was watching him over there.
I went over there with the sign another time, and I was surprised when
I recognized that the guy with the sign hanging on the chest, said,
"Viva Fidel" and "Hands off Cuba," was Lee Harvey Oswald. Until that
moment I only knew Oswald as a guy who was offering his service to
train Cubans, and when I saw that he was with a sign defending Fidel
Castro and praising Fidel Castro, I became angry. That was in the 700
block of Canal Street just in front of the store where I was working my
first year here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the International Trade Mart?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; Ward Discount House. He make another appearance in
the International Trade Mart, later, and I will go into that, too.
When I saw that was Oswald and he recognized me, he was also surprised,
but just for a few seconds. Immediately he smiled to me and he offered
the hand to shake hands with me. I became more angry and I start to
tell him that he don't have any face to do that, with what face he was
doing that, because he had just came to me 4 days ago offering me his
service and that he was a Castro agent, and I start to blame him in the
street.
That was a Friday around 3 o'clock at this moment, and many people
start to gather around us to see what was going on over there. I start
to explain to the people what Oswald did to me, because I wanted to
move the American people against him, not to take the fight for myself
as a Cuban but to move the American people to fight him, and I told
them that that was a Castro agent, that he was a pro-Communist, and
that he was trying to do to them exactly what he did to us in Cuba,
kill them and send their children to the execution wall. Those were my
phrases at the moment.
The people in the street became angry and they started to shout to him,
"Traitor! Communist! Go to Cuba! Kill him!" and some other phrases that
I do not know if I could tell in the record.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean they cursed at him, they swore at him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, some bad phrases, bad words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And at that moment, one of the Americans push him by one
arm. One policeman came. When policeman came to me and asked me to keep
walking and to let Oswald distribute his literature that he was handing
out--he was handing out yellow leaflets of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, New Orleans Chapter--and I told to the policeman that I was
Cuban, I explained to him what Oswald did to me, and I told him that I
don't know if was against the law, but that I will not leave that place
until Oswald left and that I will make some trouble.
The policeman left, I believe going to some place to call the
headquarters, and at one moment my friend Celso took the literature
from Oswald, the yellow sheets, and broke it and threw it on the air.
There were a lot of yellow sheets flying. And I was more angry, and I
went near Oswald to hit him. I took my glasses off and I went near to
him to hit him, but when he sensed my intention, he put his arm down as
an X, like this here (demonstrating).
Mr. LIEBELER. He crossed his arms in front of him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, put his face and told me, "O.K. Carlos,
if you want to hit me, hit me."
At that moment, that made me to reaction that he was trying to appear
as a martyr if I will hit him, and I decide not to hit him, and just a
few seconds later arrive two police cars, and one of the policeman over
there was Lieutenant Gaillot, G-a-i-l-l-o-t. They put Oswald and my two
friends in one of the police cars, and I went with Lieutenant Gaillot
in the other police car to the First District of Police here in New
Orleans.
When we were in the First District of Police, we were in the same room,
one small room over there, and some of the policemen start to question
Oswald if he was a Communist, what he was doing that, and all those
things, and Oswald at that moment--that was in front of myself--was
really cold blood. He was answering the questions that he would like
to answer, and he was not nervous, he was not out of control, he was
confident in himself at that moment over there.
One of the questions that they asked to him was about his organization,
the Fair Play for Cuba, and I saw him showing some papers that--I
believe they were the credentials of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee,
that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is a national organization, and
when he told that, he was so kind of proud that it was not a small
group but a national group all over the United States, and they asked
of him the name of the members. No. Excuse me. Before they asked him if
he has any office. He told them no, that there were--they were holding
the meetings in different house, different homes, different members
of the organization one night in one house, another night in another
house, but in front of me he didn't told nothing about any office. When
they asked him about the name of the members, he answered that he could
not tell the name of the members in front of myself, because he will
not like to let me know who were the ones who were helping him here in
the city, and at that moment the police came out of the room and that
was the last time that I saw him that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police keep you in jail too?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, yes. I had to put--they took my fingerprints and
my picture, and I have to put $25 bond that night with my two friends
too, and I don't know, but after the assassination I heard that Oswald
didn't put the $25 bond, that somebody went to the First District and
make--I believe you call that an affidavit or something like that, and
he will appear in court and he will not have to put the $25. He didn't
put the $25 bond. That is what I heard. I didn't saw that. I am not
sure of that. Next time that I saw him----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in court later?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; later. That was August 12.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on Monday.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you pleaded not guilty to the offense that you were
charged with?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right; that is right. And he plead guilty.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there in court?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him in court?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is what you were just about to tell me?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. In August 12, we appear in the second municipal court in
New Orleans. I came first with my friends, and there were some other
Cubans over there, and I saw when Oswald came inside the court. I saw
him. He went directly to sit down in the middle of the seat of the
colored people. See, here in the court you have two sides, one for the
white people and one for the colored people, and he walked directly
inside of the colored people and he sat directly among them in the
middle, and that made me to be angry too, because I saw that he was
trying to win the colored people for his side. When he will appear in
the court, he will defend Fidel Castro, he will defend the Fair Play
for Cuba, and the colored people will feel good for him, and that is a
tremendous work of propaganda for his cause. That is one of the things
that made me to think that he was a really smart guy and not a nut.
When the judge call us, he plead guilty, I plead not guilty, and
my friends plead not guilty. I brought the Marines guidebook, the
guidebook for Marines, and I explain to the judge that the incident was
originated when Oswald tried to infiltrate the organization and that if
he will not do that, I will not have any fight with him in the street,
and I showed to him the guidebook for Marines with the name of Oswald
on the top of the first page, and the judge dismisses the charges
against us and fined him $10.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fined Oswald $10?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ten dollars, that is right. In the court was at that
moment one cameraman from WDSU, and he make--he did an interview to
Oswald after the trial and he took some movies of ourselves, and later
I receive one phone call from Bill Stuckey. I had talk to Stuckey the
day of the trial in the morning. I met him in the bank and I explained
to him what was going on in the second municipal court, and he was the
one who send the reporter over there to the trial. I am not sure if
was the same day or next day of the trial Stuckey called me asking for
Oswald's address. I get the affidavit from the court dissertation, and
I give to him the address in dissertation, and I asked him why he was
looking for that. He told me that he was going to make an interview
to Oswald. I disagreed with him at that moment, I told him that I was
thinking that it was not good to let a Communist go to radio station
and tell all his lies, because there are many people who understand
what was happening in Cuba, but there are many people who do not know
exactly what is happening in Cuba. Stuckey offered me to make another
interview to me next Saturday in his program, but I didn't agree with
that neither, and I asked him to arrange a radio debate, because in
that way we could tell our point of view at the same moment in the same
place.
On August 16 another friend of mine left to me a message in the store
that Oswald was another time handing out pro-Castro propaganda for the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee, this time in front of the International
Trade Mart here in New Orleans.
I wasn't in the store at that moment, and when I came back and I
received the message, I went to the International Trade Mart, but I
could not find Oswald, he had already left, and I was talking later on
with my friend, and the information that I received was that he was
over there with two other persons. Later I saw the picture of those two
persons, and they have a Latin aspect. I do not know if they are Latin
Americans or not, but at least there is one who is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did somebody show you pictures of these individuals?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who did?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The Secret Service tried to see if I know them, if I
could identify them.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you a picture,
which has previously been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit 453-A," and I ask
you if that is one of the pictures or a picture like the one the
Secret Service showed to you.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you another
picture, which has previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-B."
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] See this guy, see this Japanese? He
is from the Kasuga Co. here in New Orleans. He had the office in
International Trade Mart.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you pointed to the person standing immediately behind
and to Oswald's right with his hands up behind his head?
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Demonstrating.] That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is on Exhibit 453-A. Now do you recognize the
person with the "X" over his head?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now there is a person standing to Oswald's left wearing a
white shirt and facing the same direction that Oswald was facing, and
I will indicate that person with a pen mark on the picture. [Marking
photograph.] I have drawn an arrow pointing to the person to which I
refer, and I ask you if you recognize that person.
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't recognize him. I believe that this is one of
the pictures that I saw before, but I don't recognize him. For me, he
looked like as a Latin American.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now in the far foreground of this picture, there is a
man who has been marked with a green mark, just one mark, and we are
referring at this point to Exhibit 453-A. Do you recognize that person?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that another one of the individuals to which you
referred as having a Latin-type complexion, or is it not?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir. I believe--no; this is not the one that I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have one other picture here of this scene which has not
previously been marked, and I will show that picture to you and ask
you if you can identify anybody in that picture with the exception of
Oswald, of course. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.]
Mr. BRINGUIER. The only one that I could recognize here is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he is the person with the "Hands Off Cuba"?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba" leaflets in his hand, the first one in
front, just in the middle of the picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking photograph.] I have marked the picture I just
referred to as "Exhibit No. 1" to your deposition.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Do you want that I sign the picture?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Would you initial the picture for identification
purposes?
(The witness complied.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.
Mr. BRINGUIER. You want that I sign these too?
Mr. LIEBELER. No. We have identified those as Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and
453-B, and you have noted that they are----
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that there were two different
people that appeared to you to be Latin people.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Sure. This one that I see here [indicating], this is the
one looked like to me a Latin, but, if I am not wrong, somebody showed
me another picture where is another guy distributing the leaflets. I
believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a Secret Service man or an FBI
agent? Do you know?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think that was a Secret Service man. Maybe I am wrong.
I saw those days a lot of pictures; but--let me tell you something
else: If my opinion is not wrong, if I am not mistaken this moment, I
think that the other man was maybe in some kind of Bermuda shorts or
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any pictures in my possession showing that.
The Commission has requested the actual film, the TV film itself, to be
delivered to it, and they will examine it, and if such a person does
appear in the films, I will send you a picture of it.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Okay.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I will also speak to the Secret Service about it and
see if we can find such a picture. According to the Secret Service, one
of these gentlemen has been identified as Mr. Charles Hall Steele, Jr.
Mr. BRINGUIER. He was working in the Pap's Super Market here in New
Orleans. I believe so, that he was working over there. There was one
Cuban who, when saw his face in the television, called me to tell me
that, and I called the Secret Service and let them know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Steele will be in the office here this afternoon, so
we will have an opportunity to determine if it is the same man that was
marked with the arrow in Pizzo Exhibit 453-A or not.
So you went over to the International Trade Mart on this day in an
attempt to find Oswald, but you were not successful? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. After that my friend showed to me
one of the leaflets that Oswald was handing out in front of the
International Trade Mart, the yellow leaflets, and I found something
interesting at this point. There was a difference among the leaflets
that he was handing out on August 16 in the International Trade Mart
and the leaflets that he was handing out on Canal Street on August 9.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The leaflet he was handing out on Canal Street August 9
didn't have his name of Oswald, at least the ones that I saw. They have
the name A. J. Hidell, and one post office box here in New Orleans and
the address, and the leaflets that he was handing out on August 16 have
the name L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Street. In the yellow leaflets
he was offering free literature and lectures, and he was asking to
the people to join the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, and at the end he said, "Everyone welcome." My friend asked
to me if I think that it would be good that he will go to Oswald's
house posing as a pro-Castro and try to get as much information as
possible from Oswald. I told him yes; and that night he went to
Oswald's house with the leaflets.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day was this now? Do you remember?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 16. I believe so. I think that. I am sure.