Mr. BRINGUIER. That he was distributing the leaflets.
Mr. LIEBELER. The second time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The second time. The first time was a Friday, August 9,
and the second time--I think that was another Friday, August 16.
My friend went to Oswald's house and he was talking to Oswald for about
1 hour inside his house, in the porch of the house, and there was when
we found that Oswald had some connection with Russia, or something like
that, because the daughter came to the porch and Oswald spoke to her
in Russian, and my friend heard that language and he asked Oswald if
that was Russian, and Oswald told him yes, that he was attending Tulane
University and that he was studying language, that that was the reason
why he speak Russian. He give to my friend an application to become a
member of the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
After the assassination my friend turned [over] to the Secret Service
one copy of the application. I have here one, one copy [producing
document]. This is a photocopy. My friend keep the original.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; that is the only one that I have. He has the
original. If you want to keep that, for me it is no trouble, because
always I could take more copies.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see. Your friend still has the original?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The original; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's mark this one as "Exhibit 2" to your
deposition. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we asked Mr. Bringuier to
initial a picture which we discussed before on the record, and
that picture, which is a picture of a street scene in front of
the International Trade Mart has been marked "Exhibit 1" to Mr.
Bringuier's deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964. We
shall now mark as "Exhibit 2" to that deposition a photocopy of an
application to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans, La.,
which Mr. Bringuier says is a copy of an application which was given
to a friend of his whose name we have agreed not to indicate on the
record, given by Lee Oswald on or about August 16, 1963. Is that
correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit No. 2 and I ask you to do the
same, if you would.
[The witness complied.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Please go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. At that conversation Oswald was defending Fidel Castro,
and he advised to my friend that the United States don't have the right
to invade or to overthrow any other government, and that if the United
States will do that to Cuba, he will fight defending Castro, because
Castro was right.
I gave the copy of the transcription of the conversation with my friend
to the Secret Service the days after the Kennedy assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the day that you and your friend discussed this
after your friend returned from Oswald's and you made a recording of
that conversation?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Not a recording, not a recording exactly; but when my
friend came back from Oswald's house, he told me what happened over
there and he was trying to contact some authority to let him go deeper
inside the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your friend was?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; my friend was trying to contact some authorities,
because he didn't want to be involved in that matter without the
knowledge of the U.S. Government. We also discussed this conversation
in front of Ed Butler.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ed Butler, Edward Butler, for the Information Council of
the Americas, the day or 2 days previous to the debate when my friend
and myself went to Butler's office, and my friend was explaining to
Butler all the conversation and the point of view of Oswald, and the
matter that Oswald spoke in Russian, and at that moment my friend
had found that Oswald had been in Russia and that he was married to
one Russian girl. We gave all that information to Butler and he was
trying to contact some person, somebody in Washington, to get more the
background of Oswald before the debate.
After that, the last day that I saw Oswald was August 21, the day of
the debate. I went to WDSU radio about 5:30, 30 minutes before the time
of the debate. When I went to the lobby, there were already there--Bill
Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald. I shake hands with Stuckey. Stuckey
indicate to me that Oswald was there. Oswald stand up and came to me
and shake hands with me. I was talking to Stuckey for a few minutes,
and after that Stuckey left the lobby and went inside the WDSU radio
station to check--I believe that was to check in what room we will have
the debate. I was talking to Oswald that day before the debate started.
I was trying to be as friendly to him as I could. I really believe
that the best thing that I could do is to get one Communist out of the
Communist Party and put him to work against communism, because he know
what communism mean, and I told to Oswald that I don't have nothing
against him in the personal way, just in the ideologic way. I told him
that for me it was impossible to see one American being a Communist,
because communism is trying to destroy the United States, and that if
any moment when he will be at bed he will start to think that he can
do something good for his country, for his family, and for himself, he
could come to me, because I would receive him, because I repeat to him
I didn't have nothing against him in the personal way. He smiled to me.
He told me--he answered me that he was in the right side, the correct
side, and that I was in the wrong side, and that he was doing his best.
That were his words at that moment.
Before we went inside the room of the debate, he saw my guidebook for
Marines that I was carrying with me, because I did not know what will
happen in the debate and I will have to have that weapon with me to
destroy him personally as a traitor if he doing something wrong in the
debate. When he saw the guidebook for Marines, he smiled to me, and he
told me, "Well, listen, Carlos, don't try to do an invasion with that
guidebook for Marines, because that is an old one and that will be a
failure." That was his joke in that moment.
After that we went to the debate, and I think that you have the whole
history of the debate, you have the transcription and everything, [so]
that I don't have to go inside that, because that is subjective, not
objective. You have the objective, and that is the debate.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is right. We do have a transcript and we listened to
it on the tape last night over at the television station too.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And there is something that I want to show you too.
I told to you about the training camp that were across the Lake
Pontchartrain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Producing newspaper.] At the beginning of August in the
Diario Las Americas from Miami for September 4----
Mr. LIEBELER. For September 4, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. [Indicating photograph.] This is the spy
who was inside the training camp. The Christian Democratic Movement
turned him over to the FBI, and the FBI was questioning him in Miami.
The Christian Democratic Movement found a letter, according to this
information, from this guy directed to Carlos Lechuga, former Cuban
Ambassador to Mexico and now Cuban Ambassador to the United Nations
in New York. In that letter the spy, Fernando Fernandez, was warning
Lechuga that they have to be alert from that date to August 8, and the
day that Oswald came trying to infiltrate my organization was on August
5. This sounds for me strange in all this matter.
[Indicating.] Here is another interview from Fernandez here 3 days
later.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a copy of the same newspaper but for
the date of September 6, 1963, on the front page of which----
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] Here. "Fernando Fernandez is in favor of
coexistence with the Communist regime of Castro." That is the title in
Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. You
say that Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga in Mexico.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lechuga is a member of the Castro government?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is now Ambassador to the United Nations?
Mr. BRINGUIER. In New York; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fernandez is the person who was the Castro spy who had
infiltrated the training camp in Louisiana?
Mr. BRINGUIER. For the Christian Democratic Movement here in Louisiana.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the Christian Democratic Movement is--what?
Pro-Castro?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Anti-Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is an anti-Castro organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; they were training Cubans over here to make a
commando action against Castro, but they find out that there was a
Castro spy inside the training camp, and they went back to Miami with
the people and with him, and they turn him over to the FBI. I think
that after that the leader for the Christian Democratic Movement--or
that the FBI didn't found nothing, because was not against the law
to spy inside an anti-Castro organization. It was against the law
to spy inside the U.S. Government but not inside the anti-Castro
organization. And my feeling--and this is the question that I am asking
myself--in New Orleans we are about 900 miles from Miami. In Miami
is where the headquarters of all the anti-Castro groups. I could not
find any reason for Oswald to come to me and offer me his service to
train Cubans in guerrilla warfare at the same moment when there was a
secret anti-Castro training camp in New Orleans and a Castro spy was
inside that training camp. That for me is--because, if he was willing
to infiltrate one active organization, he will go directly to Miami
and he will offer his service over there in Miami, but not in New
Orleans where it is not publicly known that there was something going
on at that moment. I believe that that was the only time here in New
Orleans that there was something like that, and it was a coincidence.
And there is another coincidence too for me, and that is that when
Oswald left the city he went to Mexico, and the letter from Fernandez
that was intercepted here was to Mexico too, and Oswald visit the
Cuban consulate in Mexico, and the Fernandez letter was to the Cuban
Ambassador to Mexico. For me, that is a big doubt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, after the debate, the same night of the debate,
I went to the radio station here in New Orleans and the local papers
and the United Press International office, and I gave a press release.
If you want a copy, I could give you a copy. I gave a copy to the
Secret Service.
The most interesting thing is the four things that I asked to the
Secret Service of New Orleans. I think that this is the second
one where I said, "Write to your Congressman asking for a full
investigation of Mr. Lee H. Oswald, a confessed Marxist" [producing
document]. And that was 3 months before the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I have the original of that. You can have that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked a copy of the press release distributed to
the various communications media here in New Orleans, on August 16,
1963----
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, August 21.
Mr. LIEBELER. August 21, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 21, the night of the debate.
Mr. LIEBELER. I mark it as "Exhibit No. 3" to your deposition, and I
have initialed it. Would you initial it?
[The witness complied.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go over some of this testimony that you have just
given to see if I understand. Mr. Fernandez wrote to Mr. Lechuga a
letter in which Fernandez said that we--meaning the Castro people?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Must be on guard up until August 8?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 8, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that Oswald had come to your store or
offices on August 5, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald came to you offering to assist in the military
training of Cubans?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, there was, in fact, a training camp near
New Orleans----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. For the training of people for military action against
Castro?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was not public knowledge at that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are tying this up in your mind by considering the
possibility that Oswald was, in fact, a Castro agent?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did know about the existence of this training camp,
because Mr. Fernandez had already himself infiltrated that training
camp?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that Fernandez had told Oswald about the existence of
this camp and had asked Oswald himself to try to infiltrate that camp
for your organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the only thing that I don't believe is that
Fernandez had told directly to Oswald. What I believe is that Fernandez
had informed some people outside the United States, and these people
had informed Oswald and had gave to Oswald the order to try to
infiltrate the Cuban group here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Fernandez was, on this theory, aware of that and
was aware of approximately the time Oswald would make this attempt,
and, therefore, indicated to Lechuga that there would be some danger of
Oswald being discovered as an attempted infiltrator?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg pardon? I don't understand the words.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand, part of the hypothesis here, the theory,
relates to the fact that Fernandez said to Lechuga, "We must be
careful, or we will be in danger,"--up until about August 8. Now does
that statement have anything to do with Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, what I think is this: He send that letter to
Lechuga, and on August 5 Oswald came to me offering his service to
train Cubans, all in the same period of time. Something that never was
happening here in New Orleans, that there was a secret anti-Castro
training camp, and the chairman of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
trying to join the Cuban group here in New Orleans. Those are the
facts. I don't want to tell something that I am not sure about. I just
want to show you that tremendous coincidence or that connection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now it doesn't seem likely, does it, that Oswald would
go around handing out literature in the streets like he did if he was
actually attempting to infiltrate the anti-Castro movement?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Remember that that was after I turned down his offer
and after I told him that I don't have nothing to do with military
activities and that here there is nothing, and that I turned down
completely him. He didn't went openly to do that before the attempt to
infiltrate the training camp; he went openly to do that after he was
turned down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conceivable association between
anybody in the pro-Castro movement and Oswald that could have acted as
a source of information to Oswald--conducted the orders to him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have any way of obtaining information of that
sort as a result of your anti-Castro activities and contacts? If there
were such a person as this, do you think you would be likely to know
about it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. If there were such a person, that is to say, some agent
of the Castro movement who had been working with Oswald, do you think
that you would have had access to that information or you would have
been likely to find out about it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, that is a hard question, because here in the
city you have a lot of persons. There are some who are pro-Castro,
there are many who are anti-Castro. Even among the Cubans you could
have some Castro agents here in the city and you could not have control
of everybody.
But there is something else: The owner of the Havana Bar--the Havana
Bar is located in 117 Decatur Street, just two door or three door from
my store--the owner of the Havana Bar is a Cuban, and he and one of
the employees over there, gave the information to me after Kennedy's
assassination--not before--that Oswald went to the Havana Bar one time.
He asked for some lemonade. He was with one Mexican at that moment,
and when Oswald was drinking the lemonade, he start to say that, sure,
the owner of that place had to be a Cuban capitalistic, and that he
argue about the price of the lemonade. He was telling that that was
too much for a lemonade, and he feel bad at that moment, Oswald feel
bad at that moment--he had some vomits and he went out to the sidewalk
to vomit outside on the sidewalk. These persons here from the Havana
Bar told me that the guy, the Mexican, who was with Oswald, was the
same one that one time the FBI told them that if they will see him,
call them immediately because that was a pro-Communist. I remember
that was between August 15 and August 30 was that period of time. I
could not locate that because I start to find out all these things
after the Kennedy assassination, not before, because before I did not
found any connection. They did not told nothing of this before to me.
Between the 15th and the 30th the brother of the owner of the Havana
Bar came to my store asking me to call the FBI, because he already saw
one automobile passing by the street with two Mexicans, one of them the
one who had been with Oswald in the bar, and he told me that the FBI,
one agent from the FBI, had been in the bar and told them that if they
will see those two guy to call them. This person, the brother of the
owner of the bar, he gave to me at that moment the number of the plate
of the automobile, but he didn't get from what State. I called the FBI,
because this person don't know to speak English. That was the reason
why he came to me. I talked to the person in the FBI. I explained what
was going on, but looked like this person on the telephone didn't know
nothing about that matter and he took the--I believe that he took the
notes of what I was telling to him, and that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen, before the assassination or after?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I called before the assassination, but I didn't know
that that was any connection with Oswald, because they didn't told me
at the Havana Bar that one of them was the one that was with Oswald in
the Havana Bar, and even more they didn't told me Oswald had been in
the Havana Bar. After I learn that Oswald was one day over there with
one Mexican, the brother of the owner told me, "Yes. You remember those
two Mexicans? One of them was the one who was with Oswald in the bar."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell me approximately when you called the FBI about
this.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, that was between the 15th of August and the 30th
of August, because that was when the owner of the Havana Bar was on
vacation. The brother was the one who was at the front of the business
at that moment, and we figure that the owner of the Havana Bar went on
vacation from August 15 to August 30 and that had to happen in that
period of time.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, some time between August 15 and
August 30 the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told you that he
had seen a man that had been formerly identified to him by the FBI, and
the FBI had asked this man, the brother of the owner of the bar, to
notify them if he saw this man?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had seen this man together with another man
driving in an automobile somewhere here in New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. But the question is this: The FBI was according to the
information that the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told me,
the FBI was looking for both men, not for one.
Mr. LIEBELER. For both of them?
Mr. BRINGUIER. For both of them, but just one of them was in the Havana
Bar with Oswald, not both.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the brother of the owner of the
Havana Bar?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ruperto Peña, and the one who saw Oswald in the
bar--that was the one who served the lemonade to him--Evaristo
Rodriguez.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you report this to the FBI when you talked to them
after the assassination?
Mr. BRINGUIER. After the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I report this to the Secret Service. I believe so.
[Producing document.] I have here a copy of the letter that I send
to the headquarters on November 27, 1963, informing here to the
headquarters the information that I gave to the Secret Service about
the man who was working in the Pap's Supermarket, that he was going to
Delgado Trades School, I believe with the name of Charles, and I have
here that I gave to the Secret Service this information during that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. May I see that?
[Document exhibited to counsel.]
Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Spanish?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. You have given me a draft of a document entitled "Open
Letter to People of New Orleans," which I have marked "Exhibit No. 4"
to your deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964, and I
have initialed it in the lower right hand corner. Would you initial it,
please?
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Complying.] And you agree to send me back the original?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I will take this and have a copy made, and I will
send the original back to you. I have your address on my copy here of
Mr. Rankin's letter, which is 107 Decatur Street, New Orleans, La. Is
that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. That is my store. You can send the mail
to there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Correct. Now "Exhibit No. 4," as I understand it, is a
draft of a letter that you proposed to distribute here in New Orleans
some time after the debate that you had with Oswald on August 21, 1963.
Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.