Mr. GLOVER. Model "A" came in 1927 and 1928.
Mr. JENNER. 1927, 1928, and 1929. I was about a junior in college then.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I am a little bit younger than that. I was 10 years
old in 1927, but I distinctly remember the Model "T's." I am not sure,
but the important thing as far as my recollection was, he said he
wanted to take this trip and started to take it with another fellow and
he didn't get very far, but then he this time did take the trip and the
feeling I had was the motivation was--he had been completely broken
up by his son dying and he wanted to do this a long time ago, he went
ahead and did it.
And his wife wanted to do it with him and they did it.
Mr. JENNER. So the impression you obtained from the conversation you
heard overall was that the trip was not motivated by any objective or
plan to have any contact with any persons connected with the Soviet
Union, or representing the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get any such impression.
One other thing, I did get the impression, he mentioned specifically
that he had some business along the way, which was looking at old
mining areas.
Now I got the impression, although it was a hazy one, that he was
actually being paid by some private concern to look at old mining areas
as he passed through there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you have any impression of any other trips
that Mr. De Mohrenschildt made outside of this country?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. He told me that after the war he was on a, I don't
know whether he was connected--somehow he said with a State Department
venture which he was doing something with regard to advising in oil
matters in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had gone to Yugoslavia?
Mr. GLOVER. He had gone to Yugoslavia, he told me that. He described
the living there when he was there, drinking lots of wine in Yugoslavia
with women and so forth, and it wasn't very descriptive, but from what
he said, I got a very distinct impression he had been there, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression that he was married at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I did. In fact, the impression I have, and I am not
sure exactly where it all comes from, when I first met Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt, she was alone, and her husband was never with her, and
she was not very cordial at all.
You saw someone skating around and you'd just say a word and she was
not particularly cordial.
And even later, I am not sure exactly the amount of time, but maybe a
season of skating, he appeared.
And I assumed afterwards, I am not sure what basis I had, that this was
the time that he was away in Yugoslavia, and he came back. And I think
they referred to that afterwards, as if that were the case.
Mr. JENNER. In this early period was anything else said to you
affirmatively that Jeanne or "Jon" De Mohrenschildt was his wife at
that time?
Mr. GLOVER. When I come to think of it, I don't know of any specific
instance where there was a big point made of them being married, but I
assumed, since they were living together, and I just assumed that.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know they were living together?
Mr. GLOVER. At what time?
Mr. JENNER. The earlier period.
Mr. GLOVER. The earlier period, no. The later period I didn't live too
far away from them. I would go to their house and have a glass of beer
after the tennis match, and later I went to their house quite often.
Mr. JENNER. The tennis match was the second period?
Mr. GLOVER. The first period I don't have any proof whatsoever except
it seemed to me they were giving the same name.
Mr. JENNER. They were?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. Now that could be checked with the Dallas
Figure Skating Club where they were members. I assumed they were
husband and wife.
Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to George De Mohrenschildt's past in
connection with whether he had been married more than once?
Mr. GLOVER. He said he had been married four times, including this.
Mr. JENNER. Including the marriage to Jeanne or Jon?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So he had had three marriages prior to this time?
Mr. GLOVER. That is what he said. He used to talk about that quite
often, make remarks to the fact that he had been married four times.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a son who died. Did he say anything
about having any other children?
Mr. GLOVER. A daughter.
Mr. JENNER. A daughter?
Mr. GLOVER. Same wife.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about whether she was alive or dead?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he talked quite a bit about her.
Mr. JENNER. As being alive or dead?
Mr. GLOVER. As being alive.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion eventually in which there was a
discussion in which he indicated that she had been--she had become
deceased?
Mr. GLOVER. No. He never indicated anything to me that she had become
deceased. He talked quite a bit about her and was still talking about
custody of the daughter who was remaining with the mother, who was
trying to prevent any possible change in custody. That was right up to
the last I knew him.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether at any time you stated to the FBI
that he had two children and they had both died?
Mr. GLOVER. I stated that he had two children?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. And they had both died?
Mr. JENNER. Did die, yes.
Mr. GLOVER. I did not state such.
Mr. JENNER. Had two children by the marriage to Wynne Sharples.
Mr. GLOVER. The last name Sharples is correct, and I remember the
nickname "Deedee" of the woman who he said he was married to by whom he
had two children.
I did not say to the FBI that he had two children who died. I have
said he had two children one of which died who apparently had cystic
fibrosis.
Mr. JENNER. All right, did he mention any other relative of his?
Mr. GLOVER. I was asked this question by the FBI, and I believe he
mentioned--I know he mentioned a brother--a brother who taught school,
and I believe it is Dartmouth, N.H., and I think he taught history.
Anyhow, he taught some subject or related subject on liberal arts, but
I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. He did mention Dartmouth?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure.
Mr. JENNER. Could have--could he have mentioned Princeton instead of
Dartmouth?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't think so, because I remember it being in that area
up in the upper New England States, somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of Jeanne or "Jon's" background?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The impression I got of her background was that
she was of White Russian stock and came through China where she was
married, and then came to this country. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. That she had come from Russia and gone to China?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know whether anyone said White Russia, but
whether they said that or not, I got the impression that she had come
originally from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything about--perhaps I'd better so pursue
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She had come through China?
Mr. GLOVER. She lived in China and was brought up there as a young
girl, married, presumably, a Chinese man, and then came to this
country. That is the story I got, and apparently from what she said, he
did not adjust.
Mr. JENNER. She came here with her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that he was a Chinese?
Mr. GLOVER. I had that impression.
Mr. JENNER. After they arrived here, the husband did not adjust well?
Mr. GLOVER. Right, and it led to their breakup.
Mr. JENNER. And they were then divorced?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or at least broke up, as far as you know?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. And that her marriage to George De Mohrenschildt was her
second marriage?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had any
business or occupation herself?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, I did. She had worked some time during--at the time
that I first met her, she worked as a designer of clothes.
Mr. JENNER. For what company?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know what company, but she worked here in Dallas
at the time. I believe at the time she joined the Figure Skating Club,
someone learned that. I don't think she told me particularly, but
someone, that she did this.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation on the subject with her
which served to confirm the report that you had obtained from someone
else? That is, that she worked as a designer here in Dallas.
Mr. GLOVER. I cannot recall at the time of the first meeting with her,
but at a later time, from things that were said, I am quite sure that
she referred to that time when she worked, yes, here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your general impression of her. What kind of person
was and is she?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the most obvious thing about her that I can recall
was her very, very great desire to help and dominate people, to help
solve their problems, is the thing that always impressed me about her.
She had one daughter, which I haven't mentioned, apparently by this
previous marriage, who grew up and who I met one time when she was
passing through.
Mr. JENNER. That is, passing through Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. With her husband. That was during the later period.
Mr. JENNER. She was married and lived somewhere else in this country?
Mr. GLOVER. All I know is that daughter and husband came from a Mexican
trip and were going to Alaska.
And she had this one daughter who she talked very much about, how she
had brought her up and so forth, and she seemed to have a desire to
sort of help people out and sort of arrange their affairs.
She tried one time to give me advice on my family situation, at
which time, as one would say, I told her off, told her that I had my
own ideas about what I wanted to do about the situation and was not
interested in hers at all. But that is the most outstanding impression
I have of her, always trying to do something for someone, arrange
things in some way, sort of an overdeveloped mother tendency, to me.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of her, please.
Mr. GLOVER. Physically, I am depending somewhat on some pictures she
showed. According to her, when she showed pictures in the album.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean--are you relating to the pictures to describe
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. No; well, I will just leave that out, if you prefer.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt as you knew her, saw her.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she was a person who looked in fairly good physical
shape.
Mr. JENNER. About how old?
Mr. GLOVER. She looked like she was about 40 years old. She was
accumulating fat on her body which was very noticeable. We played
tennis all the time, and she looked like someone fortyish and was
beginning to get quite a lot of fat.
Mr. JENNER. What about coloration?
Mr. GLOVER. Color of hair was brown, medium brown. I don't remember
people's eyes very well. It sort of seems to me like they were blue. I
am not sure. Her height was medium height.
Mr. JENNER. Medium for a woman and medium for a man differ--what would
you say, five two, or five three or five five?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not very conscious. I would say five five or five six,
maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you please stand and tell us how tall
you are?
The REPORTER. I am five two and a half in my stocking feet and about
five five with heels.
Mr. JENNER. Having observed the reporter, what is your present
recollection about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's height. Is she taller or
shorter?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say her height without her heels or anything was at
least as tall as she is standing now, would be five five or five six
which I said, or possibly taller than that. I am not very sure.
Mr. JENNER. But she was inclined to be on the heavy side?
Mr. GLOVER. Slightly. She was getting heavy.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say she weighed, offhand?
Mr. GLOVER. She talked about that when we were playing tennis. I can't
remember. I really don't know. Maybe, I would say, 110 to 120, or so.
Mr. JENNER. She was five five and she weighed 110 pounds? She would be
awfully thin.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she must have weighed more than that. I am not very
conscious about that.
(Comments off the record.)
Mr. GLOVER. Maybe she would be 130 or so. Maybe she weighed a little
bit more than that.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt speak to you of his background?
Mr. GLOVER. He spoke somewhat of it. I didn't get a very clear picture
of the exact tracings of his background. I got a picture of him having
been born in Sweden. He said he came from Sweden. And having lived in
Russia for a short time, and then having left there. And the next thing
I remember him saying was that he fought with the Polish National Army
sometime in the Second World War, and had left the army. Now I am not
quite sure when that was, when the army was disbanded, when Hitler
invaded, or some other time. I am not sure. It must have been then, I
guess, but that is the hazy impression I have of that part of it.
Mr. JENNER. At the time of the invasion of Poland by Hitler, which was
roughly September of 1939, De Mohrenschildt then left Poland?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he left the Polish Army at the same time. I really
don't know for sure when that was. I didn't think very much about it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he came directly to this country at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not have any impression of him saying he came directly
here, no. The next thing I remember about his telling his background
was that he came here to this country.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Texas?
Mr. GLOVER. First he came to New York, according to his story. And I
remember one comment he made about that. He was wined and dined and
passed around to people who he knew in some way, and this was fine,
but when he came to find a job, he had a lot of trouble. And the next
period I remember is that he was at the University of Texas, and I
assume he was going to school and got a degree in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. But you are not so sure about that? You have the impression
that he was a person who had the benefit of higher education?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I assumed that he had had at least some school
knowledge of the subject of petroleum engineering or petroleum in
general.
Mr. JENNER. He did say that he attended the university in this State?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he said he attended the University of Texas, I am
quite sure. At least I got that impression. I am not sure of his exact
words. He talked about being a student, so I guess I just assumed that.
I don't know whether he said specifically he attended as a full-time
student.
Mr. JENNER. Describe George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. GLOVER. He is a heavy set rather Mr. Atlas type.
Mr. JENNER. Atlas or Adonis?
Mr. GLOVER. I notice that he is still around, Mr. Atlas. Very healthy
looking specimen. Tall and heavy set. Little bit clumsy in his
movements.
Mr. JENNER. A big man, in other words?
Mr. GLOVER. Big man, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And handsome?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, that is a matter of what you call handsome.
Mr. JENNER. You described him in that respect.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think he was a, he might be called handsome by
somebody. I would call him a good heavy-looking physical specimen.
Mr. JENNER. Color of hair?
Mr. GLOVER. Hair was some kind of brown.
Mr. JENNER. Had a good crop of hair?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; a lot of curly, wavy hair.
Mr. JENNER. What about his personality?
Mr. GLOVER. He was a very great mixture of things.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.
Mr. GLOVER. He was a very cynical sort of person. He was a Bohemian
sort of person.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, but
what do you mean by "Bohemian type of person"?
Mr. GLOVER. I mean he lived the kind of life where he went the way he
wanted to go and he did what he wanted to do and he didn't care very
much about what anyone said.
He wanted to play tennis, morning, noon and night. He wanted to dress
the way he wanted to. He was not very conforming in his physical
dress or in his appearance or anything else. But the main thing that
impressed me most about him was his immaturity. He acted like a fellow
who is in his teens, who was reacting against everything in the world
and never settled down, and acted like this minor revolution which
occurs in most people, of being against authority and so forth, and
wanted to travel over the world and do things himself. He is sort of a
revolution inside of him. It never stops. He was sort of a rebel.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he really had somewhat adolescent tendencies
and had never grown up?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say that he was very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your time and my time, we talked about "Joe College." Is
that expression familiar to you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he that kind of a person, breezy?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; very much so. Very outspoken. His language sometimes
wasn't very nice. He said anything he wanted to say.
Mr. JENNER. Was he, in his conversation, somewhat of a braggart?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. Talked about himself a great deal and what his
accomplishments were and so forth?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he did. He was somewhat of a braggart. He did, like
many, many people, he embroidered things. I had the feeling one could
never place full stock in exactly all the things he said. He was like a
lot of people, he embroidered things. Not so much a braggart exactly as
just one who just talked a lot about everything. I think, yes; he was
sort of a braggart in a way.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say were his attitudes and his
relationships, first, with the male sex, and second with the ladies?
Mr. GLOVER. Female sex?
Mr. JENNER. Overall attitude.
Mr. GLOVER. His overall attitude, one of his preoccupations was sex,
seemingly, the female sex. He used to talk about every female he saw
go by. He would ride along in his car and blow the horn at any female
he saw going down the street. And his attitude toward males, as far as
I know, there was no particular, nothing particular to be said on that
subject.
Mr. JENNER. But he showed considerable interest in ladies?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he showed a very, very great interest in them, sort of
a preoccupation thing with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seem to ingratiate himself with ladies when he was
in their presence?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was even somewhat rougher than that. He would act
very, very aggressive toward them, very aggressive toward them. I don't
know whether his bite was as bad as his bark. I never saw any evidence
of it, but he was very, very rough and aggressive with people.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me your present overall impression of George
De Mohrenschildt insofar as character and integrity are concerned?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he was a man who obviously very much embroidered
things he said. And also from his political opinions, which he gave out
from time to time, didn't show very clearly where he stood.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you give the circumstances and your--first give
me your overall impression as to his political views. And I mean
political in the sense of, first, I mean political in the sense of the
views he entertained with respect to governments in general, and in
particular, I mean as against any political party.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he said--the main thing there is his cynical attitude
towards things. I don't think he respected any kind of authority. I
think that he is sort of apolitical. He sort of resented having to
conform very much. But his political views, as far as our system versus
communism, for instance, it wasn't very clear how he stood. He made
remarks which suggested that he didn't like the way the Communists were
treated. Very pointed remarks, sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't like the way the Communists were treated?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he didn't like the treatment that some Communists were
given. I can give you an example.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in this country or in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I was thinking of outside this country.
Mr. JENNER. All right.