any trouble he would tell the police about it, and he said, “Well, I’ll
see her on the way to the club and I’ll see that she never makes it
inside the door.”
We moved from the apartments that we were in that Kirkwood knew we were
living in--we moved from there and Kirkwood didn’t know anything about
it, and he went looking for me over there and asked my landlord about
me and where to find me, and then he was supposed to meet me up at
the Carousel Club and knock me out so I couldn’t get in--he was going
to see that I never made it, and he never did show up. He called the
colored man that took care of the place. He called him and told him to
tell me that he had called, and I don’t remember what all he said to
the colored man, but he called him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he again?
Mrs. CARLIN. Pat Kirkwood.
Mr. HUBERT. He operates the Cellar, you say? That’s a nightclub?
Mrs. CARLIN. It’s a beatnik club here in town on Main Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from him since?
Mrs. CARLIN. I haven’t heard from him--no; not since then.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been last January?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you remember the Friday night that the President was
shot, did you go to work that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. CARLIN. I got a telephone call.
Mr. HUBERT. Who from?
Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the colored man.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of day was that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don’t remember--I have no idea. It’s been so long.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Larry Crafard that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. You know who Larry Crafard was?
Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the lights.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the spotlights and things--I don’t
know his last name, but I knew him by Larry.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall whether you called him that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. No: I don’t recall. If I did, it was to see if I was
coming to work or something, because I don’t remember it. It must not
have been very important.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you came into Dallas on Saturday night with your
husband and Tammi True?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time had your husband gotten back that day, do you
remember how much before you’all came into Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. I didn’t understand.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come to Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was right before working time and we started
about 8:30. It was right before that.
Mr. HUBERT. No; how long had your husband been home when you started
out to go to Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know--he come in and out so many times.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether he had been on a trip that weekend?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t even remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in town when the President was killed, do you
remember that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes--well, I don’t know. I don’t know whether he was or
not, I believe he was, though.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he used to go out on trips, didn’t he?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he used to go out and stay almost the whole night
working motels with Mr. Bunker, and sometimes they would be gone for 2
or 3 days, but I don’t remember at that time where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you two photos which have been identified as Exhibit
No. 1 in the Deposition of Bruce Carlin, and ask you if you can
identify the person who is represented by those pictures?
Mrs. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know an Officer J. D. Tippit, the man who was shot
by Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t. I don’t know. I won’t say, because there
was--oh, I don’t know how many used to come in and out and I was
usually on stage and the lights were blinding me.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you don’t recognize the man who is shown in
the pictures marked Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 of the Deposition of Bruce
Carlin?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also that have been identified
as Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin and ask you
if you recognize the man who is shown in those pictures?
Mrs. CARLIN. This is the same one that they showed me a couple of days
ago and I said that I wasn’t for sure, but he resembles the man that
took over after Jack went to jail. There was a Paul and he worked the
cash register, and there was a man that resembled him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was a man employed at the Carousel, a Mr. Paul,
after Ruby was put in jail, this Mr. Paul took over and there was a
man employed there by this Mr. Paul, and you think that the man who is
represented in pictures 3 and 4 looks something like that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes. He was a little bit older, the man was, but it
resembles him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what his name was?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anybody talk to him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was just “Hello” and “Goodnight.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long was he there?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. Like I say, everything has been so long
ago and there’s so many people that asked me so many things--I don’t
even remember, but I talked to him one night about--I guess--about 30
minutes or an hour and he’s supposed to have a family in Los Angeles,
Calif., and two children, and that’s about all that he ever told me
about himself.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know his name?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he told me, but I don’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Bernard Weissman refresh your memory in any
way?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that’s the name of the man that was there?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You’re not sure that this was the man?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the man represented in Exhibits Nos. 3 and
4?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you called Ruby on Saturday night to ask him for money
where did you call? What number did you call--home?
Mrs. CARLIN. At his home. Tammi True gave me the number and I called
it. It was supposed to be at his apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if he answered the phone the first time.
You see, I called twice, but I think the first time--I think there was
someone else that answered the phone and called him to the phone. Like
I said, everything has been so long ago.
Mr. HUBERT. And the first time I think he told you he couldn’t lend you
any money, isn’t that it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That call was made where?
Mrs. CARLIN. To his home.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean--where from?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was made from the Colony Club next door at the
telephone there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you called him again a little while later?
Mrs. CARLIN. And he said, “I’ll meet you down at the club” and he never
did show up so I called back.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you wait between the two calls?
Mrs. CARLIN. About 30 or 40 minutes. He said it would take about 40
minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you called the second time, you called him the second
time?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and he said he wouldn’t be able to make it, that he
was busy right then, and to get the man on the telephone at the carlot,
which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him for?
Mrs. CARLIN. I asked him for enough money to get home, at least.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the call the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN. He told me to call back some time the next day and tell
him how much I had to have, and which I did. I called back, but the
only reason I called as early as I did--we saw on television what had
happened. Well, I called first--we got up about--I don’t remember--I
think it was about 9 or 9:30 or something like that, and my husband
told me I’d better call him, and so I called.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was going to send the money by Western
Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he didn’t say.
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you called on Sunday morning?
Mrs. CARLIN. He told me he was going to send it by Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday night he didn’t tell you how he
was going to send it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you called him on Sunday, did he suggest Western Union
or did you?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I didn’t suggest anything, neither did he. He just
said “I’m going to send it. How shall I send it?”
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you?
Mrs. CARLIN. He said, “How shall I send it?” I said, “Send it in Karen
Bennett, because that’s the only identification I have.”
Mr. HUBERT. But it was his idea to send it by Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you be sure about that, or perhaps you suggested
that he send it, isn’t that right?
Mrs. CARLIN. I won’t say for sure about anything. I’m not for sure
about nothing any more. I could have said, “That will be the quickest
way” or “How are you going to send it?” I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the method of sending the money discussed on Saturday
night?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so--no. I just think he said, “Call me
tomorrow and tell me how much you need.”
Mr. HUBERT. Well, didn’t it occur to you that the money would have to
be gotten to you some way on Sunday?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I thought perhaps that I could tell him how much I
would need and then Tammi was going to have to make another trip over
there and she could pick it up for me.
Mr. HUBERT. You had those thoughts at that time?
Mrs. CARLIN. At that time, yes, but then when he said he would send it,
that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. It was his idea, wasn’t it?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember, whether it was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you made arrangements with Tammi to go get it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; you see, he owed Tammi some money and she had quit
and she was going to get the money. Well, that night she couldn’t get
the money, because, like I said, he didn’t show down at the club so I
figured she had to make another trip.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to her about it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; she had to get some gowns and things out of the club,
so I thought perhaps she would go and get it. I hadn’t even discussed
it with her or anything. She didn’t discuss it with me, she just said
she wanted to get her money and her gowns and she was very persistent,
and she needed it to go to Oklahoma City, I believe, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mrs. Carlin, in ending this deposition, let me
ask you if there has been any conversations between us except that
which has gone into the record here today?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming
down.
Mrs. CARLIN. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL
The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 2:25 p.m., on August 24, 1964,
at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of
Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I
have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about
Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.
Now, I believe you are appearing here by virtue of a telephone call
asking you to come, is that correct?
Mr. PAUL. Today?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Yes; for today--on Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. You were called on Friday to appear here today?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You received no letter?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; today.
Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received today?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a letter from Mr. Rankin, was it?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, under the rules adopted by the Commission every
witness has the right to a 3-day notice, actually dated from the date
of the notice, but in any case, the rules do provide that any witness
may waive that 3-day written notice, and I ask you now if you are going
to waive the 3-day written notice and proceed to testify now, today?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you rise and let me administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Your name is Ralph Paul?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And your address is what, sir?
Mr. PAUL. 1936 East Abrams.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I have a number of questions to ask you here and I think
they will just simply flow along. Do you recall whether you received
any telephone calls from Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant on Saturday,
November the 23d, that is to say, the day after the President was shot?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not receive any calls?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any calls from Andy Armstrong?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any calls on that day from any of Eva
Grant’s friends?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any call from Ruby that day?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when that was?
Mr. PAUL. Well, one was--I think--at 6 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Saturday?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then?
Mr. PAUL. At the place of business.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He called you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where he was calling from?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know where he was calling from?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to him?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, about 3 minutes--4 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the conversation about, do you recall?
Mr. PAUL. Just telling me that he closed the club down for 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, are you speaking of Friday night or Saturday night?
Mr. PAUL. Both. He said, did I see the ad in the paper, and I said,
“No, I don’t get Saturday’s paper.”
Mr. HUBERT. This was on Saturday?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; on Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to him on Friday night?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Hadn’t he told you on Friday night that he was going to
close down the club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he called you again on Saturday night about 6 o’clock,
and did he tell you the same thing?
Mr. PAUL. No; he asked me if I saw it in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what that call was about?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And there was no other subject of conversation?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, on Saturday night, November 23, did you see a man by
the name of Bruce Carlin?
Mr. PAUL. I didn’t see anybody on Saturday night because I was working.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, that wouldn’t necessarily prevent you from
seeing him at your place of business, sir? Did you see Mr. Carlin?
Mr. PAUL. Carlin--who is Bruce Carlin?
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know a man by the name of Bruce Carlin?
Mr. PAUL. The name doesn’t sound familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Karen Bennett, Little Lynn?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps it will refresh your memory if I said to you
that Bruce Carlin is her husband?
Mr. PAUL. I never knew him by name.
Mr. HUBERT. He’s a blonde boy?
Mr. PAUL. I know him now when you say it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Tammi True?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s her stage name and her real name is Nancy
Powell?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--Powell.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her on Saturday night, November 23?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or at any time on Saturday?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, going back a little further to Wednesday night, which
would have been the 20th of November, two nights before the President
was shot--I would like to ask you if you saw Ruby on that night; Jack
Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. I really don’t remember. I saw him on Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him on Thursday night?
Mr. PAUL. I saw him on Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. There was a telephone call from Ruby to you at 9:32 on
Wednesday night?
Mr. PAUL. That’s when I worked straight through.
Mr. HUBERT. Sir?
Mr. PAUL. That’s when I worked straight through at the place.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked straight through on that Wednesday night?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you then at 9:32?
Mr. PAUL. I guess. He called me all the time. He called me every night.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the nature of that call?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He called you every night, you say?
Mr. PAUL. Mostly every night--if I didn’t come around, he called.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he call you for?
Mr. PAUL. Just to tell me how business is or if I didn’t come around,
he just wanted some questions answered about what he should do.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a telephone call from him on Thursday night,
November 21, at about 6:40 p.m.?
Mr. PAUL. Maybe he did, but I told him I was going to be in.
Mr. HUBERT. You told him you were coming in to Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in to Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him then?
Mr. PAUL. Yes sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your seeing him, what did you do?
Mr. PAUL. I always came in to Dallas when I went to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything special about that night?
Mr. PAUL. Nothing special--I think we went to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. PAUL. I’m not sure whether it was the Egyptian Lounge or
Delmonico’s.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did have supper that night with Jack?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you went back to the club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Laurence Meyers?
Mr. PAUL (no response).
Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer, sir?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I don’t think I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a man with Ruby or being introduced
by Ruby to a man called Laurence Meyers from outside of Dallas? He was
not from Texas at all. On that night he was with a young lady?
Mr. PAUL. Jack introduced me to so many people I don’t know who, what,
or when.
Mr. HUBERT. The name Laurence Meyers means nothing to you?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a man with a rather younger girl as
a companion on that night?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know the man--I can’t think I’ve seen him if I don’t
know the man.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I know that you might not know his name but you might
remember seeing a man in the company of a much younger girl?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, on Thursday night, the 21st, when you had dinner with
Jack, did he discuss the President’s visit the next day?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?
Mr. PAUL. Not at all.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no conversation between you at all about the
forthcoming visit, is that right?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Hyman Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Who?
Mr. HUBERT. Hyman Ruby or Rubenstein. I think his name is actually
Rubenstein--Jack’s brother?
Mr. PAUL. The one in Chicago?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. I met him one time.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. PAUL. He came over to the place of business.
Mr. HUBERT. It was before the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. PAUL. No; it was after the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. PAUL. It was after the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you had ever met him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It would be wrong to say therefore that you might have met
him on the Friday before the assassination of the President, that is to
say, 1 week before--in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. One week before?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Earl Norman?
Mr. PAUL. Who?
Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman.
Mr. PAUL. Earl Norman--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a fight with Earl Norman that night, the week
before the assassination?
Mr. PAUL. He had a fight but I don’t know when--not a fight--he told
him to leave the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Who--Jack did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t pass any blows between them?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. You witnessed the thing?
Mr. PAUL. I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. And Hyman was not there?
Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. You’ve met Hyman only once in your life?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was after the assassination?
Mr. PAUL. At the place of business. I know of that for sure because I
never saw him before in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your general night off--usually?
Mr. PAUL. The night off was Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your night off on November 21 when you had dinner
with Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was my night off--Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you at the Carousel on Tuesday, the 19th of November
1963?
Mr. PAUL. I might have been. I can’t recall whether I was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it refresh your memory to ask you if you remember
whether that was the occasion that Tammi True quit the Carousel there
after some argument with Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I know it was one of those days, but I can’t recall exactly
what date.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. Well, to tell the truth, I really don’t know. She said
something and he said something and I wasn’t there at the time when it
all happened.
Mr. HUBERT. You came there later?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you come there later?
Mr. PAUL. I came later--I think I did--I’m not sure. I wouldn’t be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you saw Tammi True the night she had this trouble
with Jack and quit or was fired or whatever it was?
Mr. PAUL. Well, not actually--I didn’t actually see Tammi True because
I wasn’t talking with her at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean there had been some difference between you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were not on speaking terms?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that last?
Mr. PAUL. Well, it lasted about 3 or 4 weeks, and the first time she
called me was when she saw it on TV that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had not spoken to Tammi True for about
3 or 4 weeks prior to November 24?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Friday your night off, at that time?
Mr. PAUL. No; they never had a night off.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. PAUL. They worked 7 days.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about them, I mean yourself?
Mr. PAUL. What Friday?
Mr. HUBERT. Friday the 21st, was that a night off? Was Friday normally
a night off?
Mr. PAUL. Friday wasn’t the 21st.
Mr. HUBERT. The 22nd--was Friday normally your night off at that time?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; Friday was not my night off.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not your night off?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not at that time?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on the night of the day that the President was shot,
that’s Friday, November the 22nd, were you working?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Until what time?
Mr. PAUL. Until 12 o’clock. I got out of there about 12:30.
Mr. HUBERT. You got out of there, you say, about 12:30?
Mr. PAUL. About 12:30--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And went home?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the records indicate that there was a call to you
by Jack Ruby about 1:15 p.m. on Friday, November 22. Do you remember
anything about that?
Mr. PAUL. At 1 p.m. in the afternoon?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes--1:15.
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s when he told me about the President being shot.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know it prior to that time?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I listened on the radio because everybody in the place
was just standing there and I just put the radio on--they called me and
told me that the President was shot, and just a little later, he called
me too. He says--oh--I told you that before. It was a terrible thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had gone to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had been at the Dallas
Morning News that day, the day the President was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t really recall that he told me that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think he called you again, according to the records,
about 2:43 on Friday afternoon?
Mr. PAUL. At home.
Mr. HUBERT. You had left?
Mr. PAUL. I had left the place--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I told him I was watching television.
Mr. HUBERT. You told him that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you about closing the club then?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask whether he should do it--did he ask you whether
he should do it or did he tell you he was going to?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t tell me. He said, “I’m going to close down for
3 days, what are you going to do?” I said, “I’ve got to keep open, I’ve
got a restaurant.” I told you that before.