Mr. HUBERT. Did he drive you back?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether she picked you up or you met her
some place to drive back?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. I think we drove back
right from the parking lot--from the garage.
Mr. HUBERT. And you came in from Fort Worth and went directly to the
garage?
Mr. CARLIN. To the best of my knowledge, I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that indicate to you that Tammi True was with you all
during the time?
Mr. CARLIN. Unless she would have gotten up during the time we were in
the Colony and maybe talked to someone or something of that nature, but
to the best of my knowledge I saw her periodically all night long and I
didn’t pay much attention to what she was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ralph Paul that night?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall whether I did or not--I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. You know him, don’t you?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Tammi True with you, did she see him, to your knowledge?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know whether she did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen or Kathy Kay on Friday, Saturday,
or Sunday, November 22, 23 or 24?
Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay sounds familiar, but Harry Olsen, I can’t place.
Mr. HUBERT. Harry Olsen was formerly a member of the Dallas Police
Department and he subsequently married Kathy Kay.
Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay then is the girl, the blonde-headed girl that
worked at the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Of course, you couldn’t have seen her on Friday, I
take it, from what you tell me?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall seeing her--in fact, I don’t recall seeing
her since--from the time--well, before I left, I don’t recall seeing
her.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you didn’t see her after the President was
shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Olsen?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir; I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby had called him on
Saturday night and had talked possibly about doing something to Lee
Harvey Oswald or to the Weinsteins?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know Weinstein. No; he did not call--I mean--he did
not tell me he called.
Mr. HUBERT. Paul never told you he had received a call from Ruby on
Saturday night?
Mr. CARLIN. I never conversed with Paul other than “Hello, how are you?”
Mr. HUBERT. So, the answer then is that Paul did not tell you that Ruby
had spoken to him on Saturday night?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby tell you what time to call him on Sunday with
reference to getting the rest of the money?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t believe he did. If he did, I did not go by what he
said. I called when I got up.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been arranged that the money would be sent by wire?
Mr. CARLIN. I’m not positive. It seems as though he told Karen this or
she led me to believe this by something she said.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who it was that used to pick up Karen and
Little Lynn, I think was her stage name, too?
Mr. CARLIN. Pick her up in a cab?
Mr. HUBERT. In a cab. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t--at what time was she picked up, after she got
off?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes--possibly. You don’t know anything about anybody
picking her up?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were your closest friends among the strippers, other
than Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. Karen.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. The only one that I knew personally was Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was Karen’s closest friend among the strippers--among
those girls?
Mr. CARLIN. I would guess Tammi True. She didn’t get along with anybody
too well to tell you the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Lee Oswald?
Mr. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. You’ve seen pictures of him, I take it?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you’ve ever seen him any place?
Mr. CARLIN. His face looks familiar, but as many times as you have seen
a picture like that, you could say the same thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. CARLIN. Was I ever a member?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or the Socialist Workers party?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever participated in any political activities?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Bernard Weissman?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard of him and recalled it
after an FBI agent asked me about him.
Mr. HUBERT. But prior to the time that the FBI agent asked you about
him, did you know anything about him at all?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he was a man who put the leaflets out or an ad in the
paper or something, before Kennedy came to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew that before Kennedy came to Dallas, or have
you found it out afterwards?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I believe I found it out from the News--I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see any of the Bernard Weissman signs prior to
that?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, I have marked for purposes of identification
two photos by placing on the reverse side of them the following words:
“Dallas, Texas, August 24, 1964”, and----
The REPORTER. You mean, “Fort Worth, Tex.”?
Mr. HUBERT. I do mean Fort Worth, and I am scratching “Dallas” out and
putting “Fort Worth” there, and I have previously marked “Dallas” on
all of these pictures, but I have scratched it out and entered above it
“Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, Deposition
of Bruce Carlin”, and to which I have signed my name.
These are FBI pictures of J. D. Tippit and I ask you whether or not you
recognize that man?
Mr. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No; I do not recognize
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you’ve ever seen him before?
Mr. CARLIN. I couldn’t say. I’ve been shown these pictures once before.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also marked--I had marked them
“Dallas” first and have scratched that out and have marked them “Fort
Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4, Deposition of
Bruce Carlin”, and to which I have signed my name. These pictures, of
course, purport to be various views of Bernard Weissman, also being FBI
pictures, and I ask you if you have ever seen that man before?
Mr. CARLIN. This man does look familiar as I told the FBI agent, but I
cannot say if I’ve seen him or where I’ve seen him, if I had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him in connection with Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. I can’t say--it just seems as though I have seen this man
before.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember where?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t even remember if I’ve seen him. I just know he
looks familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I thank you. That’s all.
Mr. CARLIN. Very good.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to your coming into this room today, I don’t
believe we had any conversation, and therefore I ask you whether you
concur that everything that has passed between us has been in this room
since the reporter has been taking it down?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s right. I would like to say this, if I may?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I have told all that I know. As far as I’m concerned, my
wife has told all that she knows. I don’t believe she knows any more.
Because of this complete or whole situation, I have lost one job and
lost other jobs in regard to it, maybe not for the same reason but I
knew why.
Now, I’ve got a living to make and a family to support and if there
is anything else that anybody wants to talk to me about, I wish they
would get it over with now, because it’s a matter of what or whether
I’m going to eat or my family is going to eat the next meal and I
should be out working today and I’ve lost another day, and I’ve been as
cooperative as I can be.
I know no more. I don’t care about Ruby. I have a family to support and
it all just sums up that I’m just tired of the FBI and Secret Service,
and I know they’re doing their jobs, but it’s hard to live and live
normally with the situation keeping coming back up like it is.
Now, if a man goes to jail, he pays his debt to society and he’s out
and should be left alone. Karen probably should not have been working
where she was working, but she is not working now and I’m trying to
support her and a baby and I would like to be left alone.
If I could tell all I know, which I have told--I would like to get this
over with and quit having to come back up here and be embarrassed by
my landlord being asked by the Federal agents about where I am and
questions about me and my friends.
I know it is a job that had to be done, and I feel like I’ve been
questioned and investigated, and I don’t care how much they investigate
me, but this is enough, and I think it’s time now to be left alone.
Mr. HUBERT. We certainly appreciate your feelings. Let me make this
statement to you--the fact that you’ve been recalled is by no means for
the purpose of harassing you.
Mr. CARLIN. Oh, I understand that.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s just simply that sometimes little points develop that
we didn’t know about at prior times, and it’s just an effort to do it
right.
Mr. CARLIN. I understand that. I know everyone is doing their job and I
realize that I told you things today that I didn’t remember the first
time I was here.
Mr. HUBERT. With respect to your loss of pay, of course, I don’t think
the Government can make that up to you, but there is a per diem which
you are entitled to for appearing----
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t expect them to.
Mr. HUBERT. And if you will check with Mr. Conkle of the Secret
Service, I think he can arrange to have you receive the per diem, so
you may check with him. I don’t know whether it will be material or not
but you might check with him.
Mr. CARLIN. Well, I’m not asking anything from the Government. I know I
had a job to do and I think I’ve told you all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. But under the law you may be entitled to some stipend, and
we want you to have it.
Mr. CARLIN. Well, I have contacted my lawyer here again and he said,
“Go again and try to explain to them the situation that you’re in.” It
has made it hard. I was making good money up until this started and it
seems that I can’t stay anywhere long that they don’t recognize her, or
an agent is asking questions, or the word gets around as to who I am
and who my wife is, and this always means--well, it’s jeopardizing my
family, and it’s nobody’s fault but ours, but we’re trying to live it
down and we can’t do it if things like this keep coming up.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m sure the Commission will take that into account.
I don’t know whether you will be interrogated again--probably not--but
I can assure you that if it should come about, it is because it would
be absolutely necessary.
Mr. CARLIN. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. We really appreciate your position and thank you very much.
Mr. CARLIN. Okay, sir. Glad to have seen you.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BRUCE CARLIN
The testimony of Mrs. Bruce Carlin was taken at 1:40 p.m., on August
24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Bruce Carlin.
Mrs. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of
Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I
have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what pertinent facts you may know about the death of
Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general
inquiry and about Jack Ruby and about his operations and associates and
so forth.
Mrs. Carlin, there has been a letter addressed to you, but apparently
it went to the wrong address, and this letter asked you to appear here,
and of course the letter therefore was not received.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears
has a right to have a 3-day written notice before they actually appear.
The rules also provide that you may waive that written notice, and if
you are willing to testify now without that 3-day written notice, you
may do so. Of course, you can claim the privilege of having the 3-day
notice or you can waive it and go ahead and testify now. Is it your
wish to waive it and testify now without the 3 days’ written notice?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You are Mrs. Bruce Carlin, is that so?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a stage name, I think, of what?
Mrs. CARLIN. Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think your name is also Karen?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s (spelling) K-a-r-e-n?
Mrs. CARLIN. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. There are only a few questions I need to ask you. Is your
father alive?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mrs. CARLIN. Chattanooga, Tenn.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any member of your family who was killed by
violence?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. No brothers or father-in-law or anyone of that sort?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so. I haven’t heard from any of them in
quite a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of anybody that was murdered?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are your mother and father still living together?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Has your mother remarried?
Mrs. CARLIN. No--I won’t say definitely no, because I don’t know. I
really don’t know if she has remarried or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know of any person who was killed by violence
in your family?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You know Kathy Kay, of course?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that her full name?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know her full name. All I knew her by was Kathy
Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Harry Olsen?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mrs. CARLIN. Her boy friend--I believe that was his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he then a member of the police force, the Dallas police
force?
Mrs. CARLIN. He was supposed to be; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether they have married or not?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see her?
Mrs. CARLIN. Right before--I guess--yes, it was right before the
President was killed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was the night--the last night we worked. I
believe it was a Thursday night was the last night we worked.
Mr. HUBERT. Thursday was November 21st. Where did you see her?
Mrs. CARLIN. At the place--at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. She was a dancer there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen there then?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t think so. I saw Harry after that.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. CARLIN. One night he came up to the club--no, it wasn’t up to the
club. One night I walked down--I was walking to the bus station and
this little parking lot right next door, he was standing inside, so I
went inside to ask him about Kathy, to ask how she was and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the shooting of the President was this that
you saw Harry Olsen?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it after Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand from your testimony then, that you did not
see Kathy Kay or Harry Olsen on Friday, November 22 when the President
was shot, or the next day, Saturday, or the day after that--on Sunday,
November 24?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did see Kathy again.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen her then since this Thursday night, the
21st?
Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And Harry Olsen only once and that was after Ruby had shot
Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When the club had reopened?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And when Mr. Paul was operating it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have seen pictures of Lee Oswald, I suppose?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I never paid any attention to them. I don’t remember
what he even looked like.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; as I told you before, I never did see him. I saw him
somewhere but I wouldn’t say--it was either somebody that looked like
him or I had seen him somewhere, but I couldn’t say where because I
don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you saw him, you mean you saw a man whom you
think resembles the pictures that you have seen of Lee Oswald since?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been at the club?
Mrs. CARLIN. As I said before, it could have been, but I don’t, know
for sure. I won’t say for sure. I just know that it was either him or
someone that resembled him--I’ve seen somewhere. It could have been
just about anywhere.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it then that you are really uncertain as to whether
the man you think was or possibly resembled Oswald was in fact Oswald,
you’re not sure about that?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know Oswald; no.
Mr. HUBERT. You just think that there was a resemblance between the man
you recollect and the pictures of Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do not remember--you are not positive about it
being the same man?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you remember where you saw him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No--I saw so many different faces. I never paid any
attention to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way--would it be most likely if you saw
such a man, would it have been in the club or could it have been some
place else?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, most likely it would have been there at the club
or where I went to eat around the club, because that’s about the only
places I’ve been--walking from the club to where I eat, the drugstore,
and walking back.
Mr. HUBERT. This man that you saw that you think resembles the pictures
of Oswald, or maybe did, you would have seen either at the club or at
this drugstore near the club?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At the drugstore where you had supper?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Secret Service agent by the name of Roger
Warner?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember him. I’ve talked to so many.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember telling any Secret Service agent that
you had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club?
Mrs. CARLIN. No: I remember telling them the same thing I told you.
That’s all I’ve ever said, that it could have been but I’m not going to
say for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a positive identification?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And if it’s so reported, it’s simply a misstatement in the
report?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I would say so because the only thing I have said is
that it could possibly be, but I’m not going to say for sure, but the
man resembled Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell any Secret Service agent or any
Government official at all that you thought that Oswald and Ruby were
connected in some way?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I can never remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember speaking to anyone about that--the
possibilities of their being connected?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes; I spoke to several people at the club--the Secret
Service and the FBI--so many of them.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the possibility of a connection
between Ruby and Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t remember ever saying anything like that. I’ve
said it before but it was only hearsay or what I believed myself.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you believe yourself?
Mrs. CARLIN. Myself?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, maybe I shouldn’t say. I don’t think I really should
because it’s just one person’s opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have anything to base it upon?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; it’s just my own opinion--nothing that I saw, you
know, for myself. It’s just my own opinion by the way people talk and
by him, Jack Ruby, himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was that about Jack Ruby himself that would
support a possible connection between him and Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Just the way he was--the things I’ve read in the
newspapers and things about him I saw for myself; people he would talk
to; always having people in his office; and things like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That leads you to form that conclusion?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; for myself.
Mr. HUBERT. But what is the conclusion you form from that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, that he had connections with Lee Harvey Oswald. This
is my own opinion. There’s nothing to base it on, except my own opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that because you saw these people going into
the office and so forth?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and because of the things the newspapers have said,
and the neighbors--the way that they talk about him and the things that
they have said. It’s just the things that have been put in my mind
that leave doubt there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, aside from what other people have told you or what
you read in the paper, do you have anything that you can tell us that
you know yourself that would lead you to form the conclusion that there
was a connection between them?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; nothing that I saw or nothing that 1 heard, or anyone
I saw even was there that I could hear talking, or anything--no. It’s
been so long ago I can’t remember very much any more.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that during the course of the Ruby trial when
you were waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some
people got out of the jail, and I think they passed right near by you,
I believe?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what you screamed or said?
Mrs. CARLIN. “Oh, my God, they’re after me.”
Mrs. HUBERT. Yes--what made you believe that “they” were after you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I
ever got to court.
Mr. HUBERT. Who do you think was going to kill you?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know exactly who or why. I just felt that I was
going to get killed.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, who did you mean by “they,” when you said “they” were
after you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, there was a man that was running after me--there was
two of them, and I saw some kind of little weapon, it looked like, but
I don’t remember very much.
Mr. HUBERT. So, when you used the word “they,” you meant those people
there who were escaping?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have in mind some other group of people who were
after you?
Mrs. CARLIN. No--well, it all goes back to where I used to work. I had
already been threatened by Pat Kirkwood and I didn’t know they were
escaping from the jail when I saw them.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Pat Kirkwood?
Mrs. CARLIN. He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by
him. My life had been threatened by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was--he had some publicity people down
there--television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too
well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified
some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of
course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he
hated me for what I had done.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the President was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot,
he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone,
and he says, “I want you down here in about 20 minutes,” and I said,
“Kirkwood, I don’t want to have anything to do with you or your plans,
just leave me alone.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; after I went to court that first time, the bond
hearing, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN. After I went to court, he says, “I want you down here,”
and I said, “Well, I’m not coming down.” He called me back in about 20
minutes and he said, “Why aren’t you down here?” He said, “I’ll send a
cab up after you.”
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then?
Mrs. CARLIN. I was at home in bed, I wasn’t feeling too good, and my
husband was out working. So, right after he called me--I was still
on the telephone, and my husband walked in, and he had just finished
saying, “If you’re not down here, you won’t be around too long,” and
then my husband walked in and I let him have the telephone and they
talked then.
Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband say?