would remember this rather long trip from New Orleans to Dallas and on
to Fort Worth, followed up by a trip with your wife back to Dallas on
the night you borrowed the $5 and whether all that occurred on the same
day, or do you recall what that day was?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, I understand what you’re getting at, but as far as
saying whether it came on the same day, I can’t recall. By the way, the
account I was trying to think of in Houston is The Tidelands, if this
means anything. I know that we were depressed as far as the President
being killed and I remember making the statement I didn’t feel much
like working, but on the other hand, I don’t recall whether we left
just after finding out that the President was killed, and drove back
then, or we might have started during the daytime and drove back in
there early in the morning and then going to bed and getting up the
next day and driving to Dallas. I’m saying I don’t recall whether this
was the way it was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you otherwise remember what you did on Saturday the 23d,
the day after the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I don’t even remember where I was at that
time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we do know that you were in Fort Worth, at least in
the evening?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you came back to Dallas with your wife?
Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether you had been at
home all day on Saturday?
Mr. CARLIN. I’m sorry--it doesn’t. I’m not evading anything, I just
cannot remember the specific time of what I was doing. I know as far as
the incident of going to Dallas and I know what I did when I went to
New Orleans and Houston, but as far as the particular date that you’re
thinking of now--I can’t recall what I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the records of the Sugar Bowl Motel would show the
night you were there, wouldn’t it?
Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so.
Mr. HUBERT. And it would have been the next day that you drove back?
Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure.
Mr. HUBERT. So--no, it was not necessarily the next day--you think it
might have been the next day that you drove back to Dallas or Fort
Worth?
Mr. CARLIN. Now, we have at times worked New Orleans first and come
back through Houston. I don’t think we did at this particular time, but
again, we’ve made these trips a number of times, and both of us being
very tired at all times and not even caring what time it was or where
we were, we were trying to get the work done and get back.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were in New Orleans at the time you heard the news
about the shooting of the President?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you were at some particular place?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I was in a large motel.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of that one?
Mr. CARLIN. It was on the same highway that the Hilton Inn is on
but downtown, down near town. It was right on the--it’s near the
Thunderbird Motel, but it’s not the Thunderbird Motel.
Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?
Mr. CARLIN. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?
Mr. CARLIN. I know The Tamanaca is right in there but I don’t recall if
that’s the one. It’s a very large motel, very nice, and the restaurant
sits right on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it be Motel DeVille?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe so--I believe that is it. At the time of
hearing that the President was assassinated, I was in the manager’s
office and he was busy, and we left there and walked right around the
corner to a private club, which the doors were open and the TV was on,
and we sat and watched the news report.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did after and how long you stayed
there, and what you did after you left that place?
Mr. CARLIN. No; not exactly. We possibly could have left right after
that for Fort Worth, or we might have spent the night and left the
next morning. As far as saying specifically, I do not know. There have
been times when I would come in from a trip and get to Dallas in time
to pick Karen up, and there have been times I have come in at 3 or 4
o’clock in the morning--sometimes even daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you traveled from Fort Worth to Dallas,
that is, the night of the 23d?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? How did you go?
Mr. CARLIN. You mean--was I in a car?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. Tammi True brought us.
Mr. HUBERT. She brought you from Fort Worth to Dallas?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming in?
Mr. CARLIN. Karen didn’t know if she had to go to work or not, and I
believe--I’m not sure of this, but it seems as though Jack Ruby owed
Tammi some money or something and she was going to change jobs and she
wanted the money.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go when you got there?
Mr. CARLIN. We went to the club first and parked at the parking lot
between the Colony and Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s Nichols Garage, isn’t it?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The door was locked, so we went to the Colony.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to drink then?
Mr. CARLIN. Did I have anything to drink?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall. I know that we were practically broke, just
some change is all we had, so I don’t know whether we had anything to
drink or not.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that at all?
Mr. CARLIN. No. I know for sure that at least Karen drank a coke and
possibly I did--I don’t know if I had any alcohol at the time or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But whatever you did have, you paid for it?
Mr. CARLIN. Again, I don’t recall--Karen had some change in her pocket,
in her purse.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been either you or Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe so--I’m not sure. At times we never paid for
anything when we went in the club. He just gave us a drink.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?
Mr. CARLIN. Crafard?
Mr. HUBERT. Who worked at the Carousel?
Mr. CARLIN. There was a man by the name of Larry--I don’t know his last
name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call him on Friday night, the 22d,
the night the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. The night the President was shot?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to him on the night before
the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think I was in town the night before he was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. No; this would have been a long distance call?
Mr. CARLIN. No. While I was in Houston, I believe I called Karen--I
don’t know if it was this particular trip or not, but I did notice some
receipts from the telephone company that I had that there was a call
from Houston to Dallas charged to my phone. The reason I know this is
so because I turned the receipts over to my CPA the other day and he
was asking which calls were business and which ones were not and I had
to mark them off.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall a call received by you at The Vagabond
Motel in Houston at 4:38 on the morning of the 21st, and that would
have been Thursday?
Mr. CARLIN. I remember I was called that morning; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who called you, do you remember?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe Karen called me.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you remember a phone call at 7:30 that same night,
that’s the night prior to the shooting of the President? That’s on
Thursday night--that you called the Carousel Club and spoke for
approximately 3 minutes to a person named Larry?
Mr. CARLIN. No; definitely not.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not make any such call on the telephone the night
before the President was killed?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know if I made a call. If I did, it was not to
Larry. Now, I called at various times and trips and I do not know
whether it was this one--this particular time, but I do remember
calling and asking for Karen and having to wait a length of time
for her to come to the phone, but as far as talking to anyone in
conversation, I don’t know even who answered the phone. I can’t even
say if it was that particular time that I called. I do know I have
called and Andrew answered the phone, and he’s the one I thought
answered it, but I don’t know exactly when it was that I called.
Mr. HUBERT. But you can be quite certain, I believe from what you have
testified, that you did not visit the Carousel Club on the night the
President was shot, that is, Friday night?
Mr. CARLIN. Not unless we drove back and got back in time to pick Karen
up, but I don’t think we did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember going to pick her up?
Mr. CARLIN. I remember a number of times coming back from a trip and
picking her up.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean then.
Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not remember picking her up that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first talked to her about the
President’s death?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t recall the first time I mentioned it to
her--probably as soon as I came home.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t. It would depend on what time we left from New
Orleans. I could guess, if I knew what time I left New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that you left New Orleans shortly after
checking out of the Sugar Bowl?
Mr. CARLIN. At times we would, but other times, to save money, we would
check out and service one or two accounts and then leave.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know about this time?
Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure all of our accounts were serviced when we
checked out, possibly they weren’t.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you checked out prior to hearing of the
President’s death?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I think we were still in the motel at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you remember then that you went to the Sugar Bowl
Motel after looking at the television concerning the President’s death?
Mr. CARLIN. I think so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that meant you would have checked out of the Sugar Bowl
Motel some time in the afternoon or night of Friday, November 22?
Mr. CARLIN. I misunderstood.
Mr. HUBERT. I say--that means that you would have checked out from the
Sugar Bowl Motel after the President’s death, that is to say, during
the afternoon or night of the 22d?
Mr. CARLIN. Unless we did not check out and spent the night there.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in which case you would have checked out the following
morning?
Mr. CARLIN. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would have been Saturday?
Mr. CARLIN. Right. The Sugar Bowl records will show that, because I
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man named Pachey Nespica?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t--not to my knowledge. Wait a minute--Nespica?
Mr. HUBERT. Nespica.
Mr. CARLIN. Is he with a greeting card company?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. There is an indication that you spoke to him
on November 6 and that he is in Cleveland, Ohio?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes--I don’t know him, but I do know I tried to call him.
We were still trying to get a franchise on greeting cards from him.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain his number and name?
Mr. CARLIN. This--I don’t remember either. It seems as though a
salesman gave it to me.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that--about?
Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I just know it was in the morning some time. I don’t
remember the date that I called. I also noticed that name on the
receipt from the telephone company when I was giving it to the CPA.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did your conversation with him last?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall--just as quick as I could get off the phone,
knowing what it cost.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about these greeting cards and you wanted to be
able to sell?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had obtained his name and telephone number from
someone?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I’m trying to think where. It seems as though a
salesman gave it to me either in one of the stores or possibly the
American Greeting Card salesman. I called him a number of times and he
might have given it to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from, do you remember?
Mr. CARLIN. You mean--to Nespica?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. From my home.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that an enterprise that you had with Bunker or were you
alone in that?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, Bunker and I were trying to get it--well, I don’t
know whether I told him, but it seems as though I told him I was trying
to get it. I know we had talked about it, but I don’t know that he was
in it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were working for him, he wasn’t working for you, was he?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, you can say “working for him”--it was an agreement
where I helped him build his business and if I did he would give mo a
job.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he pay for these telephone calls?
Mr. CARLIN. No; he did not pay for those.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he supposed to have?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, there are some calls that were made on my phone that
he was supposed to pay for, but this is not one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Cameron King, can you tell us about him?
Mr. CARLIN. He was my--oh--I worked for Friendship Greetings, and at
that time I wasn’t working for Cameron King, but he was my boss when I
worked for Friendship Greetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Cameron King?
Mr. CARLIN. He was the sales supervisor over this area for Friendship
Greetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes--from Kansas.
Mr. HUBERT. The record shows here that you called him on September 27.
Do you recall that--that you called him at Farmers Branch, Tex.?
Mr. CARLIN. I called Cameron?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the times I called him--I don’t recall that
that time I called him, but I do know that many, many times I called
him.
Mr. HUBERT. What were these conversations about?
Mr. CARLIN. To my knowledge, I guess that would be in regard to
Friendship Greetings or maybe a check that they owed me or a phone bill
that they had agreed to pay that they didn’t ever pay.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you called him on September 27 twice--at 2:45 p.m.
and at 5:53 p.m.?
Mr. CARLIN. On September the 27th? What day was that in regard to that
particular time? Maybe I can recall the reason for calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. This was on September the 27th and September the 27th was a
Friday. That’s September 27, 1963.
Mr. CARLIN. That 27th would have been after I made the trip; right?
Mr. HUBERT. After you made what trip?
Mr. CARLIN. After the trip to New Orleans or before.
Mr. HUBERT. September the 27th would have been almost 2 months before
the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t recall why I would call him.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that would make you
call him twice in one day?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, a number of things--I can’t recall particularly why,
but if you will notice the records show that he had been called a
number of times and the last few months two times a day. I worked for
the man.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for him then?
Mr. CARLIN. In September?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall--I believe so--I believe I was, but I’m not
sure.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you start with Bunker?
Mr. CARLIN. I’ve been working with Bunker for about 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be working with Cameron King and Bunker at
the same time?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes. There were times--a month or 2 or 3 months that I
didn’t do anything with Bunker and there were times when he wanted a
few more accounts and I could financially handle them and he would come
to me and want me to go sell these accounts and we would get behind in
servicing, and he would come to me and we would go service them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money with it?
Mr. CARLIN. Very little with Cameron. He paid my expenses and that’s
about the most of it. At times he would give us various sundries that
we needed and at times he would give me $5 or $10, but that was nothing
to say I made any money. It was a promise deal that I would get a
percent of the company for building it and a job.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man named Johnny Ammons [spelling] A-m-m-o-n-s?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. CARLIN. He owns a service station. The only reason I would be
calling him would be trying to get a motor for a car that I owned at
the time that the motor was out.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall speaking to him?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; but I don’t know exactly when.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other association with him?
Mr. CARLIN. No; only about 4 or 5 years ago I was at his home once,
again, dealing with a car. He buys and sells cars.
Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to him on the 30th of October just after noon, on
the 30th of October. Do you recall whether you had ever spoken to him
prior to that date, or do you recall when was the last time you spoke
to him prior to that date?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the last time I spoke to him prior to that.
That particular call, I think, was in regard to a head for a motor that
was gone out on the one I had.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you hadn’t spoken to him for a year? That’s
what I gather?
Mr. CARLIN. I would say at least a year and maybe more.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact with him for at least a year up until
that time?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with him since?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who put in the call to Ruby on Saturday night when you were
asking for the $5 from him?
Mr. CARLIN. The first call--Karen went to the phone booth and made,
and the second call was made from the parking lot, and I don’t recall
whether it was Karen or I that called him. It might have even been
Tammi that dialed the number.
Mr. HUBERT. What place was called?
Mr. CARLIN. His home--to my knowledge--I talked to him, and I assumed
that he was at home.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though we had to make two calls--I don’t know
whether he--no, maybe it was just one and I talked to him after Karen
did. Maybe that’s the way it was--I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it was at his home rather than any place else?
Mr. CARLIN. I assume it was. I did not dial the number.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you ask him for that night or did Karen ask
him for, or both?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, we didn’t ask him for the $5. We told him that we
needed the money and we came over here thinking that he would be open
and we could get the money, and I don’t know what he said to her, but
he upset her--I don’t know whether he hung up on her and she dialed the
number back or someone dialed the number back, but he upset her and I
took the phone and I said something to the effect that he had been very
good about letting her have money when she needed it and we appreciated
it, and we were in a jam, and that we came over without any money and
needed it the next day, and he said, “Well, Bruce, I don’t owe that
girl anything.” He said, “I’ll give her money when she has money due,”
and he said, “I don’t owe her anything,” and I said, “I realize that
but we are in a jam,” and he said, “Well, let me speak to--” the man
there--whatever his name was--I don’t recall whether he called him by
name or not, “and I’ll tell him to give you $5.” He said it in a tone
of voice as though he was upset and mad because we had called. Oh, he
said, “I can’t come down there, I’ve got people here and company,” and
I did hear people talking.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was reluctant to give you the $5, to
lend you the $5?
Mr. CARLIN. Not so much reluctant. He offered it, but I didn’t think
to ask him to let us borrow the money from somebody there and pay him
back. I didn’t think of that, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. But his position was that he didn’t owe any money, so he
was lending the money?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, he owed it; I believe. Again--I’m not sure, but he
said, “I don’t owe that girl a thing.” In other words--“I’ve done
enough for her,” and I don’t mean as far as money. He said, “I’ve done
her enough favors and I don’t owe her anything.”
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t owe her the obligation of advancing her
salary?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; that’s what I mean, and then he said--again,
disgusted, but like he didn’t mind, that he just didn’t want to talk.
He said, “Let me talk to the guy there and I’ll get him to give you $5
and I can give it back to him.”
Mr. HUBERT. And you took it to mean then that that was all he was going
to let you have on the advanced salary, is that right?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t know whether he said it to me or to her, but he
said to call him tomorrow and he would send us some more--I believe was
the terms he used, or call him tomorrow he would send us some.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he explain why he wanted you to call him tomorrow or
why he would be in a position to give you some on Sunday and not on
Saturday?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he said he was busy and didn’t have time to come down
there to give it to us then. He said he had company.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did ask for more money on Saturday
night than the $5?
Mr. CARLIN. I asked for no specific amount. Karen may have the first
time she talked to him or at that time before I started talking to him,
but I asked for no specific amount.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any consideration to borrowing from your
family or friends or other people rather than Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, yes; I probably could have except for two things:
First, I had no car to go somewhere to borrow it, and second, it was
fairly late at night, and third, I was in Dallas where I could not get
back to borrow money that late at night.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you made the call from the garage, but you had
previously been at the Colony Club, had you not?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you make the call from the Colony Club?
Mr. CARLIN. I remember now--the call was made from the Colony Club and
she said that he was very upset and rude to her and we went back down
to see--it seems as though Andy was in here somewhere, at least he was
supposed to be at the club or something--that’s what he said. At least,
Karen told me he said Andrew was supposed to be at the club. After
upsetting her and hanging the phone up, we went down to see if the club
was open and we knocked on the door and no one was there, and we went
back to the parking lot again and called because it was downstairs and
the Colony was upstairs and farther away, and much more noise.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connection with an outfit called Banker’s
Drug Co. or Bankers’ Drugs?
Mr. CARLIN. Bankers’ Drugs--not to my knowledge. You might tell me some
more about them, if I did?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that when you were servicing these
little motels, these setups in motels, that some of it was with drugs
like aspirin and so forth?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; definitely so. That’s what we did.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your recollection or refresh your memory
of that concerning any possible connection you had with Bankers’ Drugs?
Mr. CARLIN. I realize that that would be the only way that I would have
a connection with Bankers’ Drugs.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it mean anything to you now?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Southwestern Drugs?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; we’ve done business with Southwestern Drugs.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that--a wholesale house?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CARLIN. There’s one here in Fort Worth. There is a little drug
company in Houston that we bought a number of things from because we
ran short, but I don’t know if it was at this particular time, or if
this was the name of the company.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any dealings with selling any sort of
other drugs of miscellaneous character to Jack Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. Again--the question, sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any occasion to sell any kind of miscellaneous
drugs of that sort to Jack Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I certainly did not, and I don’t know if you are
referring to this or not, but we handle nothing in the line of
narcotics.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I’m not talking about that.
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the line of business that you were in
selling these sundry items?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about aspirin and things like that?
Mr. CARLIN. No. I sold none to Ruby. I don’t know if you might be
referring to this particular time, but at some time or other someone
said they needed something, they said that they were out of something
and I got something out of the car and gave it to someone, and I don’t
know if at this particular time if it was Jack Ruby or somebody in the
club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the Carousel?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know--I just remember that Jerry said, “Why
don’t you get something out of the car and give it to he or she”--or
something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Jerry Bunker?
Mr. CARLIN. I think that’s the time. Again, it could have been here in
Fort Worth. I recall that he did send me to the car to get something
for somebody that was out of something. It might have been hair oil or
something.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether it was Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t
Mr. HUBERT. Did Tammi True stay with you’all all the time on Saturday
night?
Mr. CARLIN. All the time we were in Dallas?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.