my wife and my family and my wife’s family have been investigated two
or three times by various agencies who have to do with these things,
and there is absolutely no record of any subversive, Communist, or
neopolitical organization or any of this type.
Now, I will answer these questions one by one as you ask them of me if
you want me to, but these facts have already been established through
my son and my daughter.
You see, when Vicki went to work for Argonne, she had to get a security
clearance, and Ralph was in this operation, Ralph was stationed
someplace outside of Turkey, and to this day he can’t tell me what he
did. I said, “Ralph, what were you actually doing.” He said, “Dad, if
you don’t ask me I won’t have to lie to you.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Sunday, November 24?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen Jack Ruby at any time since November 24?
Mr. MEYERS. I have been tempted, but I decided the thing to do is to
stay away from him. I have been to Dallas any number of times since,
but I don’t see where I could do him any good by seeing him, and I
certainly can’t do myself any good by seeing him. He doesn’t need me.
I will tell you this. Had I been called--for any reason had I been
called to testify at his trial, I would have testified.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen a gun in Jack Ruby’s possession?
Mr. MEYERS. You mean in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Either in his pocket or----
Mr. MEYERS. I have seen a gun in his hands.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many different occasions?
Mr. MEYERS. One occasion I remember distinctly. I saw on one of my
trips to Dallas--I don’t remember which one it was--I stayed with Jack
until he closed the club and then we went from there and got his car
and went to have some coffee or something, and then we said goodby. He
went home and I went home. When he left the club he had a money pouch,
I suppose you would call it, and he always kept his car in the garage
adjacent to his club. He opened the trunk of his car and opened a
little bag that looked to me like a little airplane bag, and he put the
pouch in this bag, and a gun.
Now, I am actually trying to remember, although I am almost positive
the gun was in the bag. In other words, I don’t think he took the gun
out of his pocket and put it in the bag. I think it was in the bag and
then I said to him, “Jack, why do you carry that damn thing?” He said,
“Well, you never know. You have got money around,” and so forth and so
on.
I said, “Well, it is yours. You do what you want to. Include me out.”
I have a very healthy respect and fear for those things.
Now, the gentlemen from the FBI asked me if I knew whether Jack Ruby
carried a gun, and the answer I would have to give you is the same I
gave them. I don’t know. I don’t know if they were carrying a gun. They
had their coats on. Maybe he did have a gun, maybe he didn’t. I would
have no way of knowing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversation with Jack Ruby Thursday night,
November 21, at the Dallas Cabana, do you recall an incident in which
Jack Ruby was angry at the head waiter?
Mr. MEYERS. No; I don’t. I really don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you----
Mr. MEYERS. That this happened while he was at the table with me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. I am asking you if you recall it?
Mr. MEYERS. I don’t recall it. I have no recollection of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you if you can identify for us a couple
of people--a person by the name of Elsa Hacker?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes; how in the hell would she get into this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a business associate?
Mr. MEYERS. No; this is a friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A person by the name of William Heiman?
Mr. MEYERS. William Heiman?
Mr. GRIFFIN. H-e-i-m-a-n.
Mr. MEYERS. He was my former employer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A person by the name of Chris Diaz Carlos or Carlios.
Mr. MEYERS. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chris Diaz Carlios, Puerto Rico. Do you know any people in
Puerto Rico?
Mr. MEYERS. No; nobody. That is, I don’t know--offhand I couldn’t tell
you of anybody I know in Puerto Rico.
I have got to ask you this question. How did Elsa Hacker get into this
thing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t answer the question for you.
Mr. MEYERS. If there was anything more farfetched, this would be it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I say I can’t answer that.
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, my goodness.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that we
haven’t discussed here which you think might be relevant?
Mr. MEYERS. Really not--I mean--we have talked about it. The only thing
that I discussed with the FBI other than what you and I have talked
about is, of course, my personal feelings about Jack, and I have given
you indications of these as I have gone along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any more questions. I want to thank
you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us.
Mr. MEYERS. Fine, I hope so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hope we haven’t interrupted your schedule too much.
Mr. MEYERS. Just took a day out of my life, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, fine.
Mr. MEYERS. I don’t think I have left anything out of any consequence,
actually. There is really nothing. I tried to think if there is
anything that I could add to this and I can’t, other than, as I say,
my own personal opinion of what the heck went on, this is beside the
point, because it is all over and done with, more or less. That is
right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.
AFFIDAVIT OF WILLIAM KLINE
The following affidavit was executed by William Kline on July 31, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Webb, ss_:
William Kline, being duly sworn, deposes and says that:
1. I am Assistant Agent in Charge, United States Customs, Laredo, Texas.
2. Subsequent to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I
received many telephone inquiries from news reporters from various
parts of the United States.
3. I do not recall being interviewed by Harold Feldman who I am
informed represented the _New York Post_, nor do I recall being
interviewed by any person identifying himself as being employed by the
“Nation Magazine.”
4. With respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, I have no personal knowledge
whatsoever of any check made on him by the United States Public Health
Service, Laredo, Texas, either upon his entry into or exit from Mexico
in 1963.
5. I have no personal knowledge whatsoever that any agency of the
United States Government maintained a surveillance of Oswald’s
movements, and I have never indicated to the contrary to any news
reporters.
Signed this 31st day of July 1964.
(S) William Kline,
WILLIAM KLINE.
AFFIDAVIT OF ORAN PUGH
The following affidavit was executed by Oran Pugh on August 26, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Webb, ss_:
Oran Pugh, being duly sworn, deposes and says that:
1. I am Agent in Charge, United States Customs, Laredo, Texas.
2. Subsequent to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I
received many telephone inquiries from news reporters from various
parts of the United States.
3. I do not recall being interviewed by Harold Feldman who I am
informed represented the _New York Post_, nor do I recall being
interviewed by any person identifying himself as being employed by the
“Nation Magazine.”
4. In any event, all information supplied by me to news reporters was
not based upon my personal knowledge; rather, all such information was
supplied to me by my assistant, William Kline.
5. I recall having advised news reporters of the following information:
(a) United States citizens are not required to register or check-in
with the Immigration and Naturalization Service either on entry to or
exit from Mexico.
(b) Lee Harvey Oswald checked into the United States Public Health
Service, International Bridge, Laredo, Texas, upon his re-entry into
the United States in October 1963.
(c) The Immigration and Naturalization Service does not presently have,
nor has it ever maintained a file containing information concerning
Oswald’s trip to Mexico in 1963.
(d) The Immigration and Naturalization Service maintained a file with
respect to Oswald’s visit to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,
and his return to the United States together with his wife and child.
Signed this 26th day of August 1964.
(S) Oran Pugh,
ORAN PUGH.
AFFIDAVIT OF J. E. CURRY
The following affidavit was executed by J. E. Curry on August 10, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Dallas, ss_:
Before me Eunice Sorrells, a notary public in and for said County,
State of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. E. Curry, chief of
police, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on
oath deposes and says:
This affidavit is prepared in response to a letter of August 5, 1964,
from J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission on
the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. Rankin pointed out in his letter that on page 175 of my testimony
before the Commission in response to a question by Representative Ford,
I stated that during a showup of Lee Harvey Oswald a witness to whom
Oswald was shown did not identify him as the person who killed Officer
J. D. Tippit.
On page 176 in response to questions by Mr. Rankin I stated that Mrs.
Markham did identify Oswald as the man who killed Officer Tippit.
The answer shown to the question posed by Representative Ford that
Mrs. Markham did not identify Oswald--is in error. The first time Mrs.
Markham was shown Oswald, she positively identified him as the slayer
of the officer.
Signed this 10th day of August 1964.
(S) J. E. Curry,
J. E. CURRY.
TESTIMONY OF BRUCE RAY CARLIN
The testimony of Bruce Ray Carlin was taken at 12:35 p.m., on August
24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bruce Carlin.
Mr. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of
Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I
have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about
Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.
I understand that a letter was written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
general counsel of the President’s Commission, which however was not
delivered because I don’t think they had the right address. That means
of course that you have not had written notice of the taking of this
deposition and under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness
is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be
taken, but those rules also provide that that 3-day written notice can
be waived if a witness wishes to waive it, and I ask you now, since
you have not received the letter, whether you are willing to waive the
notice and go ahead and testify now without the notice?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I am.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you rise then so I may administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you’re about to give at this time
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. CARLIN. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, sir?
Mr. CARLIN. Bruce Ray Carlin.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your address, Mr. Carlin?
Mr. CARLIN. 1054 West Allen.
Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now, sir?
Mr. CARLIN. I am a salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you work for a company?
Mr. CARLIN. I am contracting on my own in the aluminum business;
screens.
Mr. HUBERT. You are self-employed then, is that right?
Mr. CARLIN. You can call it that, what employment that I have.
Mr. HUBERT. What company do you sell for?
Mr. CARLIN. Various companies--whichever one makes me the best deal
on the aluminum screens that I sell--Southwest, New Aluminum, Webb
Aluminum.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. CARLIN. About 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your employment prior to that?
Mr. CARLIN. Part of the time I worked for the Motel Drug Service. Other
than that, I haven’t been working.
Mr. HUBERT. Motel what?
Mr. CARLIN. Motel Drug Service.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CARLIN. We supply sundries to the lobbies of motels for traveling
people.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in Houston on November 21, 1963, that’s the day
before the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I know I was traveling--the day the President was shot, I
was in Louisiana. The day before--I have some newspapers that I got
from Houston--I do not know the exact date.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you doing in Houston?
Mr. CARLIN. We were servicing motels. We were servicing motels with
drugs for the motels.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was your specific employer there?
Mr. CARLIN. Jerry Bunker.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?
Mr. CARLIN. He lives here in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I don’t know the name of the street but he did live at
Ridgemar Plaza.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an office there?
Mr. CARLIN. He uses his apartment as his office.
Mr. HUBERT. You “serviced”, you say, various motels?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Under his direction?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You actually brought the products there?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes--well, my primary purpose was to sell the accounts. Of
course, I did help him service them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile or a truck?
Mr. CARLIN. A station wagon.
Mr. HUBERT. And you carried these sundries around?
Mr. CARLIN. With us; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And whatever outfit the motel needed, you sold that to them?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s right and of course we would put in these cabinets,
5 by 5, in the lobby of the motel and stock it with razor blades
or hair spray and headache remedies--all these things that people
traveling would need.
Mr. HUBERT. You say “we”, who was involved?
Mr. CARLIN. Mr. Bunker; Jerry.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel together?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that he was with you on November 21?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And on November 22?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; on any out-of-town trip I’ve ever been on, he’s been
with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you specifically recall that you were in Houston on the
day before the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I’m trying to recall whether it was the day before. I know
I was there a day or so before. I don’t know if it was the exact day
before.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you were in Louisiana on the day the President was
shot?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of Louisiana?
Mr. CARLIN. We were in New Orleans at a large motel and I don’t
remember the name. We did not sell that particular account, but we were
there in the process of selling the account when we got the news that
he had been shot and we walked from there into a club that they have in
the motel and watched it on TV.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you continue your selling tour then?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to New Orleans prior to the 22d, that is to
say, immediately prior?
Mr. CARLIN. We were there, I believe, the day before, part of the day
before or maybe this was--what I’m thinking is that we drove all night
from Houston to New Orleans. Now, this is just like walking across the
street last week--you don’t remember or you don’t know that you’re
going to have to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember you were in New Orleans when the
President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first day you had been in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you had driven all night to arrive in New Orleans
on that day?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And furthermore, I think you said that you had driven from
Houston?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have put you then in Houston on the 21st?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you were there for the purpose of servicing
certain motels?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which ones you serviced?
Mr. CARLIN. In Houston?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. The Vagabond--a very large one downtown--I think The
Carriage House, and then a number of smaller ones--five or six smaller
motels, which the names of them I don’t recall, but that’s still not
the biggest one--the biggest account down there, and I can’t think of
it. It’s downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Houston altogether?
Mr. CARLIN. Again, I cannot be sure. I would say a day.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you were there only for the 21st or possibly the
20th too?
Mr. CARLIN. It could have been the 20th also. I’m not sure--I can’t
remember the dates as to when I left or where I was at the time, but I
do know I was in Houston before the President was killed and I do know
I was in New Orleans the day he was killed, but the exact date, I do
not know.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you start that tour from Dallas?
Mr. CARLIN. This--again--as far as the date, I cannot say either.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any other places--you started in Dallas,
didn’t you?
Mr. CARLIN. I think we did. I think we went to Dallas to pick up the
drugs--again--we went different ways. Sometimes we would go to Waco and
Austin and then to Houston and sometimes we go from Dallas--the other
highway straight down to Houston.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been out several days?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; as far as the date that I left or the date that I was
in a certain town, I cannot say--again.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what places did you service in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Actually--I can take you to them but remembering the
names--it seems as though it was The Caravan and then there was one
particular one we were trying to sell to which we went back about three
times and it was right across from the airport on Airline Road.
Mr. HUBERT. The Hilton Inn?
Mr. CARLIN. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Was it The Hilton Inn?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Again--a day and a half or 2 days. When we took these
trips, it was a mad trip--we worked all day and would drive all night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay at any place in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; at the Sugar Bowl.
Mr. HUBERT. The Sugar Bowl Motel?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave it?
Mr. CARLIN. We stayed all night there and we left the next day after
making a number of calls, we left the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you left?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t. It seems as though, and you probably know
better than I do--the President was killed on the day that we left.
It seems as though it was this way, but I’m not sure, but probably if
I had time to think it out and talk to Mr. Bunker, I could tell more
specifically. I know he does have the dates that each account was
serviced.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s your thought that you possibly spent the night of the
21st at the Sugar Bowl Motel in New Orleans or the night of the day the
President was shot, in that motel?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall. I know we spent a night in New Orleans.
I know I was there and it was raining at the time the President was
killed, and I know it was in the afternoon. As far as the specific
date, I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you spend the night in New Orleans after the
President was killed or before? Was it the night before or the night of
the shooting that you spent the night?
Mr. CARLIN. I think--I am not definitely sure, but I think the day he
was killed--that night we spent in New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. And the night before you drove up from Houston?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems like the night before we drove up and we checked
into a motel and we changed clothes and went to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you were in Houston that the President
visited there, would that help your memory any?
Mr. CARLIN. That the President visited in Houston?
Mr. HUBERT. That the President visited in Houston.
Mr. CARLIN. At the time that I was in Houston I don’t recall him
visiting there; no. He may have, but I don’t recall it now.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. We drove back. I think we came through East Texas--we drove
around--no, we couldn’t have gone through East Texas, could we?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stop any place outside of New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Other than to eat, I don’t believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you got to Dallas?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think we came to Dallas, or did we--I really don’t
know. Oh, wait a minute--it seems that we came to Dallas to pick Mitzi
up.
Mr. HUBERT. To pick who up?
Mr. CARLIN. Karen--I’m sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been a Saturday night then?
Mr. CARLIN. Well.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the day after the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. We have taken so many trips and they were all so wild--I
had no idea we would have to remember dates, times, or places.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was the day after the President was shot that you
got back to Dallas or Fort Worth?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I can’t even remember the circumstances under
which we came back on--why we came back quickly--except that we always
make every trip in a hurry.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you recall that it was on Saturday the 23rd of
November, that you came to Dallas from Fort Worth with your wife, Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the date or which circumstances or what
reason that I come to Dallas. Now, can you tell me what you’re talking
about specifically?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that there was a question as to whether or
not your wife Karen would be working at the Carousel that night?
Mr. CARLIN. I do recall it, but I do not know the date. I know one
night we went over to see if she was going to work; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think from your previous deposition you fixed the
time of that?
Mr. CARLIN. Over quite a bit of thinking, but as far as positively--as
I told Mr. Conkle--we cannot remember dates or times, especially this
far back. We had no idea we would have to remember them.
Mr. HUBERT. But that was the same night you came back or arrived back
in Fort Worth from this trip to New Orleans--from New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. The night we went to see if she was going to work after
Kennedy was killed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t think so--let me see--no; I don’t believe it
was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now you remember that Ruby shot Oswald on Sunday the
24th?
Mr. CARLIN. I know I was home on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, the night before that, you and your wife
had come to Dallas and you had called Ruby and as a matter of fact,
made an arrangement to borrow $5 from him?
Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was it on that day that you had driven from New
Orleans to Fort Worth?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though it would be, but I cannot say definitely
whether it was or not. I really don’t remember whether that was the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember that you left Fort Worth to come to
Dallas only a short time after having arrived back from this trip?
Mr. CARLIN. As far as my trip to Houston and New Orleans and back in
relation with Ruby and the time he killed Oswald, had anyone not said
something to remind me of the two, I would never put them anywhere near
each other, but I guess after talking to you--I guess they were near to
each other, but I cannot say the exact times that I left and what times
I was in and at what time or the exact time I came back. I do know it
was very near there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, first of all, let’s fix it this way--that you were
definitely in New Orleans the day the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so. This is the only thing I know
definitely--that I can definitely say.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that you drove back from New Orleans
to Dallas on that day?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; it’s definitely possible, but as far as knowing for
sure whether I did or not, I cannot say.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive back from New Orleans to Fort Worth by day or
by night?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe at night, but again, we’ve made many of these
trips to the same places, stay in the same places, and calling on the
same accounts.