said to him or thoughts that you had later on?
Mr. MEYERS. I said to him, in a nutty place like Dallas anything can
happen. I don’t mean I was not surprised that this happened but that
only in a place like Dallas, I guess was the words I used, would a
thing like this happen, which was a ridiculous thing to say. It could
have happened anywhere. And then he kept repeating himself. He was so
absolutely repetitious about those poor people. Now, I want to make
this point clear. He had been--oh, yes. It comes back now. He was
squawking or beefing to me about the fact that his competitors had
opened their place of business Saturday night and that he had stayed
closed. He had closed his. And how terrible he thought it was and how
unfair he thought it was. And then he went into this conversation of
these poor people, these poor people, I feel so sorry for them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention what poor people he was talking about?
Mr. MEYERS. This is what I am getting at now. My original concept was
that these poor people he was talking about were his competitors whom
he felt had no heart and no--well, no feelings, you know; they were
money hungry and this bit. And then it dawned on me as he went on and
kept mentioning the poor woman and the children and then I realized
he was talking not about his competitors but about Mrs. Kennedy and
her children, and I don’t know exactly what I said to him. How could
I remember exactly other than, well, Jack, I am sure that she will
make--you know, life goes on. She will make a life for herself, and so
on and so forth. Then he was obviously very upset. He was--let me say
it this way--in all of my conversations with him through the years that
I have known him, he had occasions to get to a degree overwhelmed, in
other words, he would almost get incoherent because he was so anxious
to get his point over. I am sure you have talked to people who will
do this. This night he seemed far more incoherent than I have ever
listened to him. The guy sounded absolutely like he had flipped his
lid, I guess. Of course, you all have to understand I have read so
much, everybody swinging this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to focus on what your view was at that time?
Mr. MEYERS. I am trying very hard because I am sure you realize I want
to tell you everything that I know. And I also have a reason for this.
He became so incoherent, so vehement about these poor people, these
poor people, the poor children, I said, Jack, where are you, and I
don’t remember where he said he was, I really don’t. I said, look--he
said come have a drink with me or a cup of coffee with me. That is
right. He asked me to come and have something with him, some food or
drink. I said, Jack, that is silly. I am undressed. I have bathed. I am
in bed. I want to go to sleep but, I said, if you want a cup of coffee
you come on over here and come on up to my room and I will have some
coffee or food sent up to my room and we can sit here and talk. He
said, no, no, he had things to do. He couldn’t come over. I don’t know
whether he said at the time or not but he couldn’t come over. This went
on for a little while and the last thing I said, Jack, why don’t you go
ahead and get a good night’s sleep and forget this thing. And you call
me about 6 o’clock tomorrow night because I have no plans for tomorrow
night. Call me at 6 tomorrow night and we will have dinner together and
he said okay. I said, fine, Jack, I will look forward to your calling
about 6 o’clock Sunday night. He didn’t call me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall--you say he mentioned to you where he was.
Mr. MEYERS. No; he didn’t tell me where he was. You mean he called me
Saturday night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, I am saying if he told me where he was, I have no
recollection of it. I don’t know where he was when he called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you to the effect that his
sister had suggested that he call a friend or that he call you?
Mr. MEYERS. Not that I remember. You must understand one thing. You
see, I have never met his sister. To this day I have never met his
sister and whether his sister knew me or knew about me, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about having taken any
pictures of a billboard in Dallas?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember his mentioning a sign which urged that
Earl Warren be impeached?
Mr. MEYERS. I know the sign you are talking about. I have no
recollection of him ever mentioning this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his mentioning to you an
advertisement that appeared in the Dallas Morning News on November 22
which addressed to a series of questions to President Kennedy with a
black-bordered advertisement and bore the name of Bernard Weissman?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of that?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention to you any theories that he had about the
assassination?
(Mr. Meyers shook his head in the negative.)
Mr. MEYERS. We didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You will have to answer no. You have to give an audible
response.
Mr. MEYERS. I am sorry. I keep forgetting this. No; he never discussed
any of these things with me. As a matter of fact, we never discussed
the assassination other than his misery when he called me Saturday
night. Now, obviously it would be said, what a terrible thing, you
know, this type of thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he mentioned to you that his competitors were open,
did he indicate how he knew they were open?
Mr. MEYERS. No. I would assume he went by and saw them open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you recall, have any specific recollection of his
saying that?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his having said that he
visited any nightclubs at all that night?
Mr. MEYERS. Didn’t mention it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention to you that he had seen Lee Oswald the
night before?
Mr. MEYERS. No. Didn’t even mention Lee Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked with the FBI on December 3, the FBI
has quoted you as saying that one of the things that Ruby told you in
the conversation was “I have got to do something about this.” Do you
remember that----
Mr. MEYERS. Definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That statement?
Mr. MEYERS. Definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how that--in what context this came up.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, this again is--you see, this, of course, is my
interpretation of this. When he was talking to me on the telephone and
he said these poor people--you mentioned this and it all comes back to
me--I have got to do something about this. I thought he was talking
about his competitors being open on Saturday night because this was the
basis of his conversation with me all along and that he was going to do
something about them staying open on Saturday night in defiance or--I
shouldn’t say in defiance--out of nonrespect for the assassination, or
for the memory of the President, or anything like this.
Also, I suppose, unfortunately, religion has to come into this thing,
although, good lord, I wish it didn’t. Also the fact that Jack
obviously is Jewish, so am I, and so were his two competitors, and Jack
is--I don’t know how to word this--militantly Jewish. In other words,
he is going to make an issue of this. He thought it was terrible that
Jewish people should show such disrespect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he specifically mention this Jewish aspect?
Mr. MEYERS. He didn’t specifically mention it but, Mr. Griffin, it is a
difficult thing to say, but in my understanding of Jack, this is what I
assumed he was talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that he said that led you to think he had some
reference to the fact----
Mr. MEYERS. Well, “these poor people, and wasn’t it”--you see, you are
putting words in my mouth now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to do that.
Mr. MEYERS. I am putting words in my own mouth actually. He had many
times intimated to me or indicated to me that it was a damn shame, to
use his words, that his competitors were such money hungry Jews, and,
of course, we could get into quite a discussion about technicalities
in this and feelings in this matter, and I of course--you see, my
background and Jack’s is so completely different. It is so difficult
for me to sometimes see his way of thinking. Do you follow what I am
trying to say?
Some things that Jack said I would have sympathized with him. Other
things that he said I might have sympathized with him but certainly not
like the way he said it. Do I make myself clear? There were just, in
other words, just as many money hungry Christians as there are Jews.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this opinion that you are giving us, that Jack was
upset about the Weinsteins being open, in part because they were
Jewish, is this an opinion which you had at the time that you talked
with Jack that night or is that one that you formed later on after
reading----
Mr. MEYERS. No, no; that is an opinion I had that night when I first
thought that he was talking about the Weinsteins.
And the fact that he led me to believe--I will put it this way--that
he was talking about them in the category of money hungry Jews is
because he was so militantly against anybody bum-rapping Jews, that is
a way of saying it. I don’t know how to word it. I know exactly what I
want to say but I don’t know how to use the words. He thought it was a
reflection on the Jews that these people would do such a thing. Let me
put it that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything specifically that would lead you
to believe that just on the basis of that conversation, or was this
something that you were concluding on the basis of having known him.
Mr. MEYERS. It was a conclusion from having known him because he did
not mention the Weinsteins by name Saturday night when he talked to me.
All he said, and he repeated this a number of times, were, “those poor
people, those poor people, I have got to do something” or, “I should do
something about this.” I don’t know exactly which words he used.
This he said a few times. Now, my assumption through my conversations
with him and through knowing him is that he was talking about these
Weinsteins.
I have since begun to believe that he was not talking about the
Weinsteins. He was talking about the Kennedy family. At least this is
my conclusion; and I am not a psychiatrist or an attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, again, is that conclusion based on anything he said
that night or is it based simply on the fact that later he shot Lee
Oswald.
Mr. MEYERS. You mean my conclusion?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. I would assume it is based on the fact that Sunday morning
he shot Lee Oswald.
Now, he did a number of times mention, “those poor people, those
poor people. I have got to do something about it, or I should do
something about it.” And you see, you must understand, Mr. Griffin,
that the assassination, of course, had occurred. The murder of Oswald,
particularly by Jack Ruby, was--well I can only say the furthest thing
from my mind. I just had no belief or concept--any more than Miss
Taylor might pick that thing up and decide to hit me on the head with
it right now. I would be just as shocked. As a matter of fact, when I
found out he had done it, it was the most shocking thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that before closing the conversation,
Ruby said to you that he had to go downtown, or that he had some
business downtown.
Mr. MEYERS. You mean Saturday night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did not say that?
Mr. MEYERS. No. The last thing he said--I will repeat myself now, and
this I know is a fact. He was more incoherent than he had ever been
when I talked to him that night, and he asked me to meet him for some
coffee or a drink, I don’t remember exactly what he said, and I told
him that I was undressed and in bed and I had no desire to get up and
get dressed, that if he wanted to have a cup of coffee with me, come on
down to the hotel or come up to my room. I would have some coffee sent
up and we could visit. He said, no, he couldn’t do that. He couldn’t
do that. I don’t think he said why. I don’t remember why. He said, I
couldn’t do. I said, all right, Jack, I have no plans for tomorrow
evening. I said why don’t you call me here about 6 o’clock and I said,
we will have dinner together tomorrow night and he said fine and that
is it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you mentioned earlier when he said no, he
couldn’t do that, he mentioned something about his having some
business, some other things to do.
Mr. MEYERS. If he said it, I have no recollection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about having had a
telephone call from one of his dancers who wanted to borrow some money?
Mr. MEYERS. Well, now, you see, here I am confused because I know that
he sent this kid some money in Fort Worth. I read all about this. Now,
whether he mentioned it to me or not, Mr. Griffin, I don’t remember.
He might have. He might not have. I don’t know. But, you see, you must
appreciate my position because it is difficult for me to disassociate
what I have read from what actually happened. Now, I do know that he
sent this kid, this pregnant kid, some money. I don’t remember his
mentioning it to me Saturday night. He might have. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In thinking back on his conversation, to what extent did
his conversation focus on his competitors as opposed to the extent that
it focused on “those poor people, those poor people”?
Mr. MEYERS. This is Saturday night you are talking about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, you see, I don’t think I have made myself very clear.
When he talked to me Saturday night, he did mention the fact that these
competitors were open Saturday night and he did mention the fact of how
terrible it was because of a sign of disrespect to the President and
the fact that this money hungry Jew did it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he use the phrase “money hungry Jew”?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes. He used that phrase to me many times. Whether he used
it that night, you see, I can’t be specific.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to be if you can’t be.
Mr. MEYERS. I can’t be specific.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not clear?
Mr. MEYERS. I am not specific. Let’s say I am not factual on that. I am
not exact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. Now, somewhere in this conversation he swung from his
competitors to these poor people. Now, this could have been early
in the conversation that I had with him that night or later in the
conversation, in the same conversation, that is, and when he went from
speaking directly about his competitors to these poor people, I still
assumed he was speaking about his competitors. My belief since, of
course, is that he was no longer speaking about his competitors. He was
speaking about the Kennedy family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this conversation a conversation in which Jack would
pause frequently and you would say something or was it something
which----
Mr. MEYERS. It was pretty much his conversation to me and me saying
Jack, calm down, unwind, you know, get it off your mind, or something
of this type.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think about your side of the conversation and tell
us what things you were saying to him?
Mr. MEYERS. Well, actually, Mr. Griffin, I said very little to him
other than to--I used the words, pacify him. He was obviously very
upset, and again I thought he was upset because of his competition and
he was upset obviously because of the assassination. My conversation to
him--my words to him were nothing specific more than typical pacifying
comment every now and then when he would let loose another tirade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any possibility in your mind that this
conversation could have taken place after midnight?
Mr. MEYERS. No. I would be extremely surprised if that took place after
midnight. I couldn’t have lost that much time. It would have to have
taken place somewhere around--10 that night. It might have even been
closer to 11 but it couldn’t possibly have been midnight because I was
not yet asleep.
As a matter of fact, I was in bed reading, either reading or watching
television, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Jack’s concern about the Weinsteins being
what he apparently called money hungry Jews. In your experiences with
Jack, would you say that Jack was any less interested in making money
than the Weinsteins?
Mr. MEYERS. No, no; Jack was just as interested in making money, I am
sure. You know, a good psychiatrist could give you the answer to this
very simply. The fact remains that the Weinsteins have evidently lots
of money and Jack doesn’t or didn’t, and I suppose he resents this to a
degree.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your experience with Jack as to whether or not he
was an aggressive or passive business entrepreneur?
Mr. MEYERS. Whether he was aggressive or passive as an individual?
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a businessman. Was he----
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, extremely aggressive. Extremely aggressive. I think
Jack’s entire nature is aggressive. I think his character is extremely
aggressive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with his attitude toward the Jews, had you
ever talked to him about any books that he was reading about the Jews?
Mr. MEYERS. No. Let me make his attitude about Jews a little clearer
to you. I may have given you a wrong impression. Jack in my opinion
is extremely proud of being Jewish--and we’ll put it on a personal
basis--just as I am. And due to Jack’s childhood, which I have read so
much about--I knew nothing about it until I read about this--and his
home life, the way he matured, it is very obvious to me that Jack did
have an inferiority complex, we’ll use the old cliche, and that he had
become or tried to become an extrovert in order to fit in with what he
thought were important people to fit in with due to his lack of formal
education. He would attach himself to people from whom he thought he
could learn, from whom he thought he could better himself, which, more
power to him.
I think also he resented maybe to a degree of envy what some of
these--what these Weinsteins were doing, first because he envied them
their success, and second, because on this particular night, this
Saturday night, they had done something that he felt was derogatory to
his people and he would resent it, just as I would resent--and here I
must put it on a personal basis, it is a stupid thing, believe me--just
as I would resent the living caricature of what a Hitler would portray
as a Jew or just as you would resent a living caricature that somebody
might portray as the worst element in your faith, and we all have this
in our faith.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Mr. Meyers, any specific episode or
conversations you had with Jack about his feelings towards his Jewish
background or his sensitivity toward being a Jew?
Mr. MEYERS. I have a feeling he was very proud of being a Jew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any specific conversations?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention his feelings about being a Jew
from time to time in conversations that you had with him?
Mr. MEYERS. No, we just didn’t discuss it. There was just nothing to
discuss between he and I on this.
You know, something else comes to my mind now. I also--it is so hard
for me to separate what actually happened from what I have read. Can I
word it this way?
I am reasonably sure that when he talked to me Saturday night he also
said something about going to his rabbi or to the synagogue and that
he was surprised that there were no special services that day for the
memory of the President.
Now, again, I want to emphasize the fact that I am reasonably sure
he said this to me because it seems to come into my mind when he was
talking about synagogue and services and rabbis and there would have
been no occasion for it other than this, at that time of the night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this have been something that you perhaps learned as
a result of talking with one of his brothers or sisters?
Mr. MEYERS. I don’t know his brothers or sisters. I have never met them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the various times that you had seen Jack Ruby, had you
ever seen him get in any fight or become violent with people?
Mr. MEYERS. No; I have never seen Jack become physically violent. I
have seen him verbally bawl out people, but I have never seen him
become physically violent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack ever talked to you about his associations with
underworld characters--hoodlums?
Mr. MEYERS. Many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What has he told you about it?
Mr. MEYERS. Generalities. Typical--nothing specific, just typical of
a man who wants to be with the ingroup, if you want to call this the
ingroup, just dropping names of so-called important people that he met
or had known, or so on and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever say anything to you which indicated that he
had ever been a part of any criminal organization?
Mr. MEYERS. No; not--of course, you get a finer point of what is
criminal and what is not. Jack did tell me, in his youth he was, well,
the words he used, a hustler around Chicago, trying to make a stray
buck on selling scalping tickets for various fights or hockey games or
something like this. I don’t know if he was a criminal. I mean, you
know what interpretation you want to put----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you ever get any indications from him that he
had ever sold narcotics?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that he had ever, himself, been a part of any gambling
organization.
Mr. MEYERS. Mr. Griffin, if I ever thought that Jack was involved in
anything--in a narcotic or this kind of thing--I would immediately have
bought back my introduction to him. I personally, now, this is--should
I say this is off the record, because this is not going to be published
anywhere, is it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me tell you that it will be.
Mr. MEYERS. Published?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything that is going to be said here will be
published, but we appreciate your frankness.
Mr. MEYERS. There is one thing that--what were we talking about? It
slipped my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to comment about if you ever had any idea
or known that he was connected with narcotics or anything like that.
Mr. MEYERS. You can put this down if you want to, but I prefer you to
stop for a minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have a policy of not----
Mr. MEYERS. Well, I don’t want to embarrass myself. This is all that
this has to do with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. We will go off the record here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that we have perhaps talked
for 2 or 3 minutes off the record here, and Mr. Meyers told us about
Jack Ruby’s attitude toward people who would come to him and ask him
to fix them up with one of his female employees, and Mr. Meyers stated
to me that one of the things that Jack Ruby liked about Mr. Meyers was
that Mr. Meyers was not one of those kinds of people who had done that.
Let me ask you this question pertaining to Jack Ruby now.
Did Jack do or say anything to you, or do you have any knowledge that
Jack was making any money by offering extra curricular services for his
girls?
Mr. MEYERS. I can only answer that by telling you, Mr. Griffin, that
if this is so, I would be the most surprised man. I personally have
absolutely no knowledge or indication of this in any shape, manner, or
form, and my reason for being so positive is that I don’t think Jack
ever lied to me. He would have no reason to lie to me in any of our
conversations, and that he made it a point to tell me that one of the
things that he detested about people who would try to impose on their
friendship with him to get him to influence any of the girls in his
club to go with them.
He made it a point to tell me that he didn’t approve of this type of
thing. He said what they do when they are out of here is their business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any indication, any information, that Jack
Ruby was a homosexual.
Mr. MEYERS. I have been asked that question by the FBI. If Jack Ruby is
a homosexual, I know absolutely nothing about it. He certainly never
indicated to me in any shape, manner, or form.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me now switch from Jack Ruby to some of your own
activities. Let me ask you have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever been a member of any political group, let me
state it, have you ever been a member of any group who lobbied for any
bills or----
Mr. MEYERS. Let me answer by telling you this. I have a daughter who
is a nuclear chemist and who has worked at Argonne and various nuclear
reactors. I have a son who was in the ASA for a couple of years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the ASA?