Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we were sitting up at the front end of the bar,
which makes a sharp L turn, and I was sitting in the L.
Mr. HUBERT. In the angle?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened as to seeing Jack Ruby on that
occasion.
Mr. JOHNSON. Standby One [holding up hand].
Mr. HUBERT. Sir; we can’t do that. It must go on the record anyhow. If
there is anything that is bothering you----
Mr. JOHNSON. This has nothing to do with it, or maybe it does. OK; fine.
On a day which I cannot remember, there was published in the Dallas
Morning News a full-page ad signed by some man’s name. Whose name, I
cannot remember. An open letter to the President.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. JOHNSON. In which that full-page ad said 11 things, answers for us,
or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the name Bernard Weissman, as you remember?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that is it.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the ad you were talking about?
Mr. JOHNSON. That is the ad I was talking about.
Mr. HUBERT. Now go ahead.
Mr. JOHNSON. All right. As we sat there having a sandwich and a beer, a
dentist from upstairs came walking through and stopped behind us. There
were four or five of us, Charlie Busby--well, I have mentioned the
names. And he heard us talking.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the dentist?
Mr. JOHNSON. At the moment; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You do know he was a dentist, though?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I will tell you why in a minute. As we sat
talking about the ad that had appeared in the paper, the subsequent
assassination of the President the day before, and that sort of thing,
the dentist came--he may have been a technician--I think he is a
dentist--I am positive he is a dentist, but anyway, he came walking
through and stopped and stood behind us and overheard the conversation,
and he said, “Hey, I know what you fellows are talking about.” And
reached up in his smock pocket and pulled out a piece of paper and
handed it to me.
I was sitting in the middle of the conversation, so he handed it to
me. I unfolded it and discovered it that it was the full-page ad that
we were discussing, so I spread it out pretty neatly on the top of the
bar as we sat there eating a sandwich and drinking a beer. While we
were sitting discussing the ad and its merits and what would happen to
it, and who the fellow was that had run the ad, I then heard somebody
over my right shoulder say, “Jesus Christ, I have just been down to the
Dallas Morning News office and there is no such bastard involved. There
is no address in Dallas, and ain’t no such person.”
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?
Mr. JOHNSON. At that moment, I did not know. And looked around over my
shoulder and saw a man standing there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that man?
Mr. JOHNSON. That man was the man whom I recognized later by
photographs and personal appearance as Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not recognize him on that occasion as Jack Ruby?
Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him then from the previous time you had seen
him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your recognition of him was not based on subsequent
pictures you saw of him?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; I saw him then. I wasn’t real positive. I was not real
positive that it was he. The reason for it being that when I had seen
him before, he did not wear spectacles. When I saw him then, he did
have on hornrim glasses.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody else in your group seem to know him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. JOHNSON. Ivan spoke to him, and Charlie Busby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they speak in such a way as to indicate that they knew
him, or simply they were replying to his remarks?
Mr. JOHNSON. They were replying to his remarks.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather anything from them at that time or later
that they knew him prior to that?
Mr. JOHNSON. Negative.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did he show you a Polaroid photograph on that occasion?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What were they of; do you remember?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us, please.
Mr. JOHNSON. He indicated that he had just returned from the Dallas
Morning News office and had discovered that there was no such person
registered or had paid for the ad that we were discussing, and he had
just returned from the Northwest Highway on Loop 12, is what I am
trying to say, where he had taken some Polaroid pictures of a sign that
was out there. As a matter of fact, he had taken two or three pictures.
I can’t remember whether it was two or three.
Mr. HUBERT. He indicated that he just returned from doing that?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. On that morning?
Mr. JOHNSON. That morning; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. This was in the early afternoon; this meeting with him?
Mr. JOHNSON. This was at that time about 2 o’clock, I would suggest.
Mr. HUBERT. He said that he had taken those pictures earlier that
morning?
Mr. JOHNSON. That is what he said; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Those pictures, I think, were pictures of a billboard
calling for the impeachment of Earl Warren, the Chief Justice?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general mood or appearance? Was it that of
excitement, or was he calm, or nervous, or overwrought, or what?
Mr. JOHNSON. That is like asking a hen in a henhouse would he want to
lay or not. He was excited to the point of cursing a little.
Mr. HUBERT. What manifestation of excitement did he give?
Mr. JOHNSON. To the point of being a b-o-r-e, bore. And we turned our
conversation between the group of us to disregard him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to make any connection between the shooting of
the President to the Bernard Weissman ad and the impeach Earl Warren
sign of which he had photographs?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What connection did he make?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he said, “We ought to shoot all them
son-of-a-bitches.”
Mr. HUBERT. Shoot who? Whom was he referring to when he said that, as
much as you could gather?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, with a photograph in his hand, the one that he had
taken with a Polaroid, as he showed them to us.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was referring to the people who were
responsible for those ads and for posting that sign and for killing the
President?
Mr. JOHNSON. Say that again?
Mr. HUBERT. It was his remark that all of those people should be
killed? Did that relate to the people that published the Bernard
Weissman ad only, as much as you could tell?
Mr. JOHNSON. As much as I could tell; no, sir. “We ought to kill the
s.o.b.’s, Warren, and the people that Warren stands for,” was his tenor.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you gathered from Ruby that he was in favor
of the poster which called for the impeachment of Earl Warren?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; directly opposite. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in favor of?
Mr. JOHNSON. Of shooting Warren; or impeaching Warren, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was trying to get out.
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I misunderstood you.
Mr. HUBERT. What you could gather, Ruby was in favor of what the sign
advocated?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that, and the ad in the paper and what had happened
the day before.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he agree with the ad in the paper?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what had he told you about going to the press to
talk to them?
Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?
Mr. HUBERT. What had he told you about going to the paper and talking
to them about the ad?
Mr. JOHNSON. While he was standing there talking to us over my right
shoulder, he told me that, or told us, all of us, that he had been down
there and had talked to them, to the editorial staff and everything
else.
Mr. HUBERT. What about?
Mr. JOHNSON. About getting rid of the gang in Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you that he had gone down there to
remonstrate with the editor for taking such an ad?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; he talked about it, and we didn’t listen.
Mr. HUBERT. Why would he be fussing, as it were, with the newspaper for
taking the ad, if he agreed with it?
Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t have any idea. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But your impression was that he had, that he said that he
had gone down to find out why the newspaper had taken such an ad?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But also your impression was, he agreed with it?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression also that he agreed with the people
who wanted to impeach Earl Warren?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be incensed at the criticism of President
Kennedy, or to the contrary?
Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?
Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be angry of this criticism of President
Kennedy, or to the contrary?
Mr. JOHNSON. I very frankly didn’t hear him say too much about Kennedy
one way or the other, other than he indicated that he felt that it was
a malpractice of, what shall we say----
Mr. HUBERT. News ethics, or something of that sort?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; and the police protection here, that he should have
been assassinated here.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he seemed to be ashamed of the fact that the
President had been shot here?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Yet your impression was that he agreed with the criticism
of the President?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to connect the, or mention anything about the
possibility that the killing of the President might reflect on the
Jewish community?
Mr. JOHNSON. To us or to me that afternoon; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to the general effect that he was
aware about how the assassination of President Kennedy might affect
business in Dallas, and more particularly his own business?
Mr. JOHNSON. That I can remember; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Tom Apple left at anytime so he
might not have heard all this conversation?
Mr. JOHNSON. Negative. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed at one time by FBI Agent Paul
L. Scott on December 6, 1963. Do you remember that?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you a document which purports to be
a report of that interview made by Scott, and I am marking it for
identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No.
1, Deposition of Speedy Johnson.”
I am marking my name, writing my name below that. It consists of one
page only. I would like you to read it, sir.
Mr. JOHNSON (reads Exhibit No. 1).
Mr. HUBERT. Now does that represent a fair report and correct report of
the interview that you had with this FBI Agent Scott?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. This indicates that FBI Agent Scott got the impression from
you when he interviewed you that you did not know Ruby at the time.
Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t know him. I still don’t know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well it----
Mr. JOHNSON. As I told initially I had.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, this says that you said that you had not seen Jack
Ruby prior to this time, prior to this occasion on November 23, and
I take it that you want to correct that statement so that it would
reflect that you had seen him on the one previous occasion we were
speaking of?
Mr. JOHNSON. On the one previous occasion; yes, sir, but that was a
long time before that.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, this document which is Exhibit No. 1, is
not correct when it says that you said you had not seen Jack Ruby prior
to this time.
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, if we go back to infinity, really.
Mr. HUBERT. All I am asking is, this statement seems to contain
something that is contradictory to something you said awhile ago, and I
am just trying to see which is right.
Mr. JOHNSON. I had met him only one time before, a number of years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, this statement also says that the individual
talking about Ruby made other remarks, the exact nature not recalled,
indicating that he was highly incensed at the criticism of President
Kennedy.
Mr. JOHNSON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, this statement is correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that is what I told him.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Johnson, is there anything else you wish to
add?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; that is all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think that there has been anything that has passed
between us here today that has not been reported by the stenographer?
Mr. JOHNSON. Very good.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Glad you came in.
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ROY E. STANDIFER
The testimony of Roy E. Standifer was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 14,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Roy E. Standifer. Mr.
Standifer, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Standifer, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Standifer, I think you appeared today by virtue of a general
request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel
on the staff of the President’s Commission, in which he requested
that certain members of the police department appear to have their
deposition taken.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has a right to
a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, which in
this case has not occurred.
But the rules also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice
and testify without it.
Therefore I ask you if you are willing to waive notice and testify now?
Mr. STANDIFER. I will.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. STANDIFER. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. State your full name.
Mr. STANDIFER. Roy E. Standifer.
Mr. HUBERT. And your address?
Mr. STANDIFER. 550 Wildrose Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr. STANDIFER. Detective, police department, city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. STANDIFER. Little better than 19 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. STANDIFER. Forty-four.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation before that?
Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, they have been numerous. I was a construction
foreman for a fence company for 5 years. Owned a cafe at one time.
Aircraft worker shortly before the war or during the war.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that most of your adult life has been in the
police department?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you a document consisting of two pages, although the
second page is only about a quarter of it occupied with any typing,
which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Paul
L. Scott, taken on January 13, 1964.
For the purpose of identification, I have marked that document as
follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have put the
following words, “Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1,
Deposition of Roy E. Standifer,” under which I have signed my name.
And on the second page I have placed my initials in the lower
right-hand corner.
I think you have had an opportunity a moment ago to read this exhibit,
have you not?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. Which exhibit contains, so far as you know, a correct
statement and account of the interview to which it refers?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that the statements made therein by you as
recalled by the FBI agent are correct?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you did know Jack Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. I did know Jack Ruby; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. For approximately 13 years?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know him?
Mr. STANDIFER. Not too well, really. Only on a professional matter or
business dealings. I never was in his place of business socially. I
don’t drink, I don’t dance, and I don’t have any business around his
place.
Mr. HUBERT. About how many times during the past 13 years do you
suppose you met Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. I recall twice in his place of business. Once in the
Silver Spur on South Ervay, and once at the Vegas Club on Oaklawn, and
maybe 3 or 4 times at the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. The two times that you saw him at the club would have been
some years ago?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix any point of time for the three or four times
that you saw him at the city hall?
Mr. STANDIFER. The only time that I remember was on the night that the
President had been killed. I believe that was on a Friday, was it not?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the 22d. But you say you did see him at the city
hall two or three times other than on that occasion?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, but I have no idea on what dates. He comes down
quite often, I understand, visiting officers, and I have seen him just
to speak to him or wave at him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you undertake an estimate of the time you saw him
last prior to November 22?
Mr. STANDIFER. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be more than a year?
Mr. STANDIFER. More than a year. I would say 3 or 4 years.
Mr. HUBERT. You state in the document identified as Exhibit No. 1 that
Ruby was well known among the police officers.
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you elaborate on that as to how you know that to be a
fact?
Mr. STANDIFER. By hearing the officers in my division talk, that they
had talked to him, and on one occasion prior to the assassination of
President Kennedy he was interested in installing a safe, and he had
talked to one or two of the officers in our bureau who are familiar
with the installation or placement of safes.
He called our office. I am the desk officer. I answered the phone most
often. He talked to me asking if I could send a detective to him to
show him what would be the best location to install this safe.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that telephone conversation?
Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, that was probably a month before the assassination.
I am not real clear on that. I believe he asked for Detective Joe Cody
by name, as Joe is familiar with safes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. I told him I would try to locate Joe, or would give him
a message that he wanted to talk to him about that safe.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?
Mr. STANDIFER. I wrote a note on an office memo and put in each
detective’s box when something comes in like that, and I am sure I
wrote a note.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Cody contacted him?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what opinion, generally, the members of the
police department had of Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, I think maybe they was friendly toward him and they
would visit him down to his place for a drink, I understand.
Maybe they would go down there and drink with him occasionally. I don’t
know. I have never been there with any of them, and I don’t know that
to be a fact. In all probability, that is what would take place.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand you did see him on the third floor of the
Dallas Police Department on the night of November 22, 1963?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Any question about your recognition of him?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say, and what did you say?
Mr. STANDIFER. I just spoke to him and said, “Hi, Jack,” and he said,
“Hi, Sandy.”
A lot of times he called me Sandy. I guess it is short for Standifer, I
don’t know.
There were three or four other detectives around the door. We had
our door blocked off to keep the press from using our phones. We had
another detective stationed at the door to keep them out, and he knew
Ruby and they were talking, of course, and all the noise, and I don’t
have any idea what they said. I didn’t solicit conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. But so far as your conversation with him was concerned, it
was just an exchange of greetings?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Does anybody else call you Sandy?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what officer it was he seemed to be engaged in
conversation with?
Mr. STANDIFER. Lieutenant Leonard, and Detective Cal Jones.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you observe him speaking to those gentlemen?
Mr. STANDIFER. No more than 2 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the same occasion that you greeted him?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, simultaneously.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of your seeing him?
Mr. STANDIFER. Roughly, 7:30 or 8 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix it? Because it would be helpful for us to
have in the record what that estimate is based on.
Mr. STANDIFER. I know that it was after dark, and I believe along about
then darkness set in about 6 or 6:30 that time of year, and I know it
was possibly an hour after dark.
Mr. HUBERT. What time had you come on duty?
Mr. STANDIFER. 2:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you had supper that night?
Mr. STANDIFER. 6:30.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?
Mr. STANDIFER. I always eat at 6:30. I bring my sack and I eat right in
my own office. I never leave the office.
Mr. HUBERT. It is a rather fixed habit that you do eat at 6:30?
Mr. STANDIFER. Fixed habit. You could set your clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that you did eat this day at 6:30?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had eaten did you see Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. Probably thirty minutes after I came back to my desk
I noticed that there was someone standing at the door there, several
persons backed up against it, and in our office I was just milling back
and forth from my desk to the door.
Mr. HUBERT. And it is that time that you saw Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. This is on Friday, November 22?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All this was on the third floor, as a matter of fact, just
outside your office, which is the burglary and theft division?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that office near Captain Fritz’ office?
Mr. STANDIFER. Directly across the hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby near or by Captain Fritz’ office?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir. Where he went when he left, I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not see him again that day?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him prior to that time on that day?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on either the 23d or the 24th at any time,
of November?
Mr. STANDIFER. I saw his derby hat on the 24th on television. I was
watching television when it occurred.
Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from that, you were not on duty on the 24th?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d?
Mr. STANDIFER. That Saturday; no, sir. I am off Saturday and Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed when you saw him?
Mr. STANDIFER. The only thing I could remember, and I am vague about
that, I believe he had on a white shirt. He was sleeveless, I believe.
I don’t believe he even had on a coat. I am not sure. That is how
little attention I paid to him.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt in your mind it was Jack Ruby?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you address him first, or he address you first?
Mr. STANDIFER. I don’t remember, I sure don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. But you in any case used the words, “Hi, Jack”?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him do anything else or say anything else? You
have already covered the conversation with the two officers?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him passing out any cards to anyone?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you wonder why he was there?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; it never entered my mind. I figured he was
curious like most other people.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of an identification system that was being
used to preclude people from coming to the third floor other than
authorized news media?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I had no enforcement on that end of it.