but again, I had not seen him before, and this was strictly by recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to probe your intellectual processes on the
24th, and as I gather it, on the 24th when you first saw him, your
intellectual processes were that “I have seen this man,” and then upon
searching your memory, you related it to the man you had seen on two
different occasions on Friday, the 22d? That is to say, in the hall in
the early part of the afternoon, and then later in the assembly room,
is that correct?
Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the man you saw earlier in the evening on
the third floor was the same man that you saw in the assembly room?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that Jack Ruby was that man on both occasions?
Mr. JENKINS. In my opinion, it was the same man.
Mr. HUBERT. It might have been?
Mr. JENKINS. In my opinion, it was the same man; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed on the first occasion that you saw him?
That is to say, the early part of the afternoon and evening?
Mr. JENKINS. The only thing that I can recall is that the man had on
what could have been an overcoat or a topcoat. It was a long coat of
some sort. It seemed it might have been of a brown or lighter brown or
dark gray color, and it was definitely an overcoat. It seemed to be
some sort of trench coat, or not a long coat.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?
Mr. JENKINS. No hat.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his hair looked like?
Mr. JENKINS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he slightly bald?
Mr. JENKINS. I really don’t remember, except it was dark.
Mr. HUBERT. Slightly bald?
Mr. JENKINS. I can’t even positively recall at this moment whether
I noticed whether it was slightly bald or not. I have had too
many occasions to see Mr. Ruby since that time, and of course now
implication of many pictures is entering in, so I can’t honestly say
that I can recall exactly what he did look like that evening. But the
facial features are the same.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you did see Ruby again after the 24th?
Mr. JENKINS. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that that was in the court?
Mr. JENKINS. In the trial, and in the hearing. Of course pictures in
the paper many times.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it still your belief then from the other opportunities
you had to see Ruby, that the man you saw on the two occasions on the
22d was Jack Ruby?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now in regard to the first occasion, you stated in the
document which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, that you thought
you saw him between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. on the third floor of the
Dallas City Jail. Can you tell us why you fix those times?
Mr. JENKINS. Well, at 5:30 I had made a report, a telephone report to
the station on what was going on at the police station. I had arrived
somewhere around 4 o’clock, and a local colleague was already there. I
arrived with Jerry Gunkle, who was ordinarily an announcer, but he was
filling in as a newsman because of the situation that afternoon. About
5:30 I made a report and asked what time it was, and was told it was
5:30, and the next time that I can recall realizing what time it was,
was 7:30 in the evening, due to interviewing people, talking to police
officers, trying to get stories, and trying to feed them either to the
station or to my control hopper down there.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix this 7:30 hour?
Mr. JENKINS. The same reason. I called the station again and checked
what time it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now then, you think it was between those two time checks
that you saw Ruby?
Mr. JENKINS. I would not state it as a fact. I believe it was. I am not
positive that it was between those two times, but those are the times
that I do recall for that particular afternoon and evening.
Mr. HUBERT. You first went down at 4 o’clock?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So it could not have been earlier than 4?
Mr. JENKINS. No; it could not have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave the third floor? When did you leave the
third floor?
Mr. JENKINS. I can’t give you an exact time. My reason for leaving
the third floor was to go down to the basement assembly room to view
Oswald. I believe it was after midnight, if I am not mistaken; it was
after midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the third floor at any time during the period
between 4 p.m. until you went down to the assembly room?
Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I would ask you why it is that you have stated that
you think it is between 5:30 and 7:30 that you saw Ruby there?
Mr. JENKINS. Well, it was earlier in the evening, I am quite sure of
that, because I know I spent quite a few hours after 7:30 mainly in the
auto theft department, which is just outside the pressroom, and in the
pressroom itself. I was talking to officers there. I was doing some
phone calling from in there. Most of the pressroom phones were busy all
evening long, and I have some friends in the auto theft department. I
don’t know them by name exactly, but I have had contact with them, and
it turned out this became my best source of information as a newsman
was just to more or less stay in there and make interoffice calls from
time to time on their telephone. I found out I could find out more that
way because there wasn’t a lot of commotion. It was close to Chief
Curry’s office and the homicide office.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, there was quite a crowd on the third floor, as I
understand?
Mr. JENKINS. It was packed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what Ruby was doing when you saw him?
Mr. JENKINS. The only thing I can recall is, he was talking to
somebody. I would suppose a newsman, I don’t know. I don’t know who he
was talking to.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that directed your attention to him
particularly?
Mr. JENKINS. Only that there were very few people around the elevator
shaft. Most of them were gathered around the cameras that were set up
right in the intersection, and then slightly past as you get off of
the elevator, and most of the newsmen were just lined two and three
deep down the hallway back toward the homicide department as you go
left coming off the elevator, and also were gathered around the cameras
there talking, and at that moment I was going by. There were only two
people, this man who I believe to be Ruby, and another man, a taller
man, and I can’t really describe what he looked like.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in uniform or civilian clothes?
Mr. JENKINS. No; in civilian clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the other man.
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; seems to me a dark suit, but everybody was wearing
dark suits.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?
Mr. JENKINS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know who that was?
Mr. JENKINS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How close to the elevator shaft was Ruby and the other man?
Mr. JENKINS. Well, they were along the wall near, I believe, the
women’s restroom, about halfway from the elevator door to the corridor,
to the cross corridor I mean. I would say probably about 7 feet, maybe.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any policeman at that time guarding or checking
identification at the elevator door or at the staircase?
Mr. JENKINS. No; not to my recollection. Of course I didn’t go down.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean when you saw Ruby talking to this other man or
the man you believe to be talking to the other man, were there also
policemen there?
Mr. JENKINS. Not in that immediate vicinity. Not that I recall; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the only time you saw him at the early part of the
afternoon?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; that’s right. At the moment, I was on the way down to
the snackbar to get a cup of coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that help you fix the time?
Mr. JENKINS. I don’t think so; not exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any supper that night?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I did. I had a hamburger. I had a cold one. It was
left over from somewhere. Quite a few had been brought up, I think, and
I was with Lieutenant May of the auto theft department, and he offered
me a hamburger. This was considerably later. I would say probably 10
or 11 o’clock, I don’t know. And he offered me a hamburger, and it was
left over, and I took it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the snackbar?
Mr. JENKINS. It is as you go up into the third floor, go toward the
Chief’s office and the dispatch office.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to leave the floor?
Mr. JENKINS. No; in fact, it was right beside that intersection which I
have been telling you about.
Mr. HUBERT. When you came back from getting the coffee, did you observe
Ruby there?
Mr. JENKINS. I didn’t look. I went straight back through. I was going
back to talk to my colleagues to see if there was anything else they
found out.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you had more than one cup of coffee
that day?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; considerably more than one cup.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it dark when you saw him, do you know? Dark outside?
Mr. JENKINS. I couldn’t say. There was not a window in the area. I
could not tie that in with any part of the observation.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s get at it this way. You came on at 4 o’clock?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have fixed the earliest time apparently that you could
have seen him at 5:30, and the latest at 7:30, which seems that you saw
him not sooner than an hour and a half after you came on, and not later
than 3½ hours after you came on. Using these relative time measures,
does that assist you in fixing the time? For example, would you be
willing to state that you did not see Ruby sooner than an hour and a
half after you came on duty?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I think definitely I would state that, because
for about the first hour and a half, perhaps even 2 hours, I stayed
primarily in the pressroom. I was doing the main part of phone reports
to the station, because we had a phone and were trying to keep it, and
also we were trying to keep a running account of what was happening.
This is strictly now an estimate of time. As I say, I only recall
asking the time twice, and I don’t ever recall looking at the clock
or at my watch until about the time we were ready to go home. It seems
like it was 1:15 or 1:30.
Mr. HUBERT. You say when you went to get the coffee it was after you
had made the 5:30 check of time?
Mr. JENKINS. Oh, yes; definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. How much after?
Mr. JENKINS. That would be next to impossible to say. It could have
been half an hour or 45 minutes, perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. And it could have been as long as 2 hours afterward, which
would have fixed the time of seeing Ruby at 7:30?
Mr. JENKINS. Could have been; yes. I think it was before the 7:30 time,
because it just seems like it was, as I remember, before the 7:30 check.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was sooner than 3½ hours after you came
on duty?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I would say that is a safe estimate.
Mr. HUBERT. So that really, the best you can do for us in between 5:30
and 7:30, but you feel fairly certain that those limits at least are
accurate?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that Ruby was not carrying anything when you saw
him at the first occasion; right?
Mr. JENKINS. I don’t recall him carrying anything at all. I don’t
remember anything in his hands, as a matter of fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Later that day you went to the press conference, whatever
time that was?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were in the assembly room, did you see Jack Ruby
in the assembly room?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw Jack Ruby in the assembly room, did you have
the mental impression that you had seen that man earlier that day?
Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. It was only later that you related the two occasions that
you saw the man you believed to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir; that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw Jack Ruby in the assembly
room, you did not go through the mental process of saying, “Oh, this is
the man I saw earlier”?
Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed differently at that time?
Mr. JENKINS. The man I saw then had on what appeared to be a checked
sportcoat.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?
Mr. JENKINS. No that. I noticed he was rather light complexioned; and
dark hair.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do or say anything that directed your attention to
him?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes. The exact words, I don’t recall. I was stationed just
inside the door behind the television camera, and this was in front of
the cables and closer to the door than most of the newsmen, and I got
there on purpose, because Pate and Kunkle were sitting on the floor
directly in front of the desk where we figured Henry Wade was going to
make his presentation, or whoever was going to speak about Oswald, and
also was right in front of the lineup screen. So I stationed myself
near the door so I could break first while they were getting tape
recordings and interviews, whatever was necessary.
The room was not filled yet with newsmen, but that man whose remark
caught my attention, was standing to my left and behind me on a table,
and he had a small pad perhaps like a spiral pad in his hand, and there
was a girl news correspondent--who she was or who she worked for, I
don’t know--but he said something to the effect that “Come on up here
with me, it will be easier for you to see what is going on. Come on
up here. There is room. You won’t have to fight the crowd.” Something
to this effect. I can’t give any direct quotes, because it was just
something in passing, but I did notice him at the time, and it seems
to me the man was smiling at the time and put his hand down to help the
girl get up.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the man you believe to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. JENKINS. That is the man I believe to be Jack Ruby. In fact, I am
more sure of this than of the first person whom I think was Jack Ruby.
The image is a lot clearer in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything else?
Mr. JENKINS. Not after that. I heard nothing. Paid no more attention to
him.
It was just a matter of 2 or 3 minutes before the entire room, front
end especially, was jampacked with cameramen and newsmen.
Mr. HUBERT. This would have been when Oswald came?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes. This was before Oswald came in the room.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Jenkins, I don’t believe that there has
been any conversation between us previous to the beginning of the
recordation of this deposition which has not subsequently become a part
of the deposition, isn’t that correct, sir?
Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. JENKINS. All right.
TESTIMONY OF SPEEDY JOHNSON
The testimony of Speedy Johnson was taken at 9 p.m., on July 13, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney
general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Speedy Johnson. Mr. Johnson,
my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Johnson, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter request
addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission, is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date upon that letter, sir?
Mr. JOHNSON. The date on the letter, or the postmark on the envelope?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the date on the letter.
Mr. JOHNSON. June 22, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. It asks you to appear on a date subsequent to that?
Mr. JOHNSON. Subsequent to that, which would be June 26, 1964, at 9:15
p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. It turned out that you were out of the city, or that didn’t
reach you in time for that deposition?
Mr. JOHNSON. No. As a matter of fact, you are right. It was forwarded
to me three times.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are appearing here tonight by virtue of that
letter?
Mr. JOHNSON. I called when I came back to my headquarters in
Houston--Standby One--when I got back.
Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is this. Under the rules of the
Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before
their deposition can be taken. That written notice was given to you a
long time ago, but it specified a date different from today, you see.
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So I want to ask you--the rules of the Commission also
provide that a person may waive the written notice.
Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t waive it.
Mr. HUBERT. So assuming there is no written notice for you to appear
today, assuming that the written notice of June 22 didn’t apply to
today, I ask you if you are willing to waive the written notice and
have your deposition taken now?
Mr. JOHNSON. I do now.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to waive it?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, of course.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you let me administer the oath? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. JOHNSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Now your name is?
Mr. JOHNSON. Speedy Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. Speedy Johnson, I understand from what you have told me,
sir, that that originally was a nickname?
Mr. JOHNSON. And since have legalized.
Mr. HUBERT. You since have legalized it in the State of Texas and the
city of Dallas so that your actual name is Speedy Johnson?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. JOHNSON. Now?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JOHNSON. 708 Kipling, Houston, Tex., 77006.
Mr. HUBERT. You say to us that you are going to move, so that in case
we want to reach you, you will be at another address?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us that address?
Mr. JOHNSON. 4300 Graustark, Houston, Tex., on Friday of this week,
which will be the 16th, as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. The 17th.
Mr. JOHNSON. 17th, yes, sir. The only reason for that is a matter of
nicer living quarters and all that jazz.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the city of Dallas on November 23, 1963?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation at that time, sir?
Mr. JOHNSON. Broker.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of broker?
Mr. JOHNSON. And manufacturers agent.
Mr. HUBERT. Broker for what product?
Mr. JOHNSON. For what product? I have 14 years been a broker for any
kind of product so long as it was honest. Aircraft, more specifically.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned----
Mr. JOHNSON. Manufacturers agent, a sideline.
Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the sidelines?
Mr. JOHNSON. Leather goods; artificial flowers; cutlery; and dishes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to November 23, 1963?
Mr. JOHNSON. I met him one time prior to the 23d of November.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that, approximately? Was it a matter of months, or
years?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir, months. June or July.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. JOHNSON. Of 1963, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?
Mr. JOHNSON. At his place of business.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. JOHNSON. At the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you a guest there? That is to say, you were a paying
customer or guest?
Mr. JOHNSON. Paying customer initially. Turned out he would not let me
pay the bill. He paid the bill. In other words, it was $9 or $10, as I
recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the reason why he stated he would pay your
bill?
Mr. JOHNSON. No reason. He didn’t give me any reason.
Mr. HUBERT. He just said you couldn’t pay and didn’t want to take your
money?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there alone or with someone else?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; I was by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him while you were at the club?
Mr. JOHNSON. Very briefly.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. JOHNSON. How long did I stay there?
Mr. HUBERT. At the club that night?
Mr. JOHNSON. Less than an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it seem odd to you that he wouldn’t let you pay in
view of the fact that you hadn’t known him before and that you had not
talked to him very much?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, simply because he met me at the door. He shook hands
with me at the door and invited me to have a drink. As a matter of
fact, took me to the table and he ordered a drink, but the lady brought
it over. A lady, I don’t know who it was.
Mr. HUBERT. A waitress?
Mr. JOHNSON. The waitress brought the drink to the table. Then he came
and sat at the table for perhaps 10 minutes, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when it came time to pay, the waitress wouldn’t accept
your money, or what was the situation?
Mr. JOHNSON. No. When it came time to pay, when I got to the cash
register, the lady at the cash register said, “No, it is already paid.”
Mr. HUBERT. You said something about $9 or $10?
Mr. JOHNSON. Less than $10. I don’t remember; that is a long time ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there about an hour, and how many drinks did you
have?
Mr. JOHNSON. Two. But he had a cover charge and a floor show sort of
charge thing. I don’t remember frankly what the costs were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually take out some money to pay him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I took out a $10 bill.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing the check?
Mr. JOHNSON. Do I remember seeing the check?
Mr. HUBERT. Was the check brought over to you at the table?
Mr. JOHNSON. Sure. I carried the check from the table to the cash
register, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw the check?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In what amount was the check for?
Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember. It was a little more than $9, but less
than $10.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a couple of drinks and then there was the door
charge, I think?
Mr. JOHNSON. Cover charge.
Mr. HUBERT. Cover charge?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anything collected from you as you came in?
Mr. JOHNSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Do you remember the itemization of it?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the one time you saw him prior to November 23, is
that correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. November 23 being what?
Mr. HUBERT. The Saturday after the President was shot.
Mr. JOHNSON. Prior to November 23, negative.
Mr. HUBERT. You had seen him the one time you have described?
Mr. JOHNSON. That was the only time I ever seen him. I knew who he was,
and that is the extent of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to see him on November 23, and where?
Mr. JOHNSON. Did I have occasion to see him; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I did see him, but you asked me if I had occasion to
see him; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did see him? I didn’t mean anything by that.
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us the circumstances under which you saw him,
and where?
Mr. JOHNSON. The specific address?
Mr. HUBERT. If you don’t know the address, we understand that. Just
tell us where the place was.
Mr. JOHNSON. OK; on Saturday afternoon about 1:10 or 1:15 or 1:20, the
time I cannot be precise about, at Sol’s Turf Bar, and Jesus Christ,
I think it is in the 1200 block or the 1300 block or something on
Commerce, but it is across the street from the Dallas Power & Light Co.
That would substantiate it. That would isolate it; I mean.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him in there?
Mr. JOHNSON. I was having----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby on that occasion?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you with anyone?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. JOHNSON. I was with Charles Busby and I was with Ivan.
Mr. HUBERT. Ivan Monday?
Mr. JOHNSON. Monday, yes; and a couple of other fellows. I can’t
remember at this point who they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Tom Apple?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there?
Mr. JOHNSON. He came in.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went into that place at approximately 1:10 or 1:15;
about then?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You went in with Monday?
Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t go in with him, but he had just gotten there when
I got there; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Frank Bellocchio?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there, or did he come in?
Mr. JOHNSON. He came in.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the three of you were together?
Mr. JOHNSON. Three or four.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you in the bar?