whether or not you knew that only police personnel and news media were
supposed to be up there, if that is the case?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know about it?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I know that the hall was so congested with
news media and cameras and recording equipment that I had to send
three detectives to the basement to work out our official police
business from the jail office rather than the routine coming and going
of prisoners and people who wished to come into our office to make a
complaint. It was impossible for them to get through.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any identification system being used by the
elevators or other means of entry to the third floor of checking?
Mr. STANDIFER. All I know is I had occasion to make one or two trips
down to the jail office or to the records bureau, and when I would come
back off of the elevator, there would be a reserve officer, I believe,
and a uniformed officer.
Of course when the door would open from the elevator, they would be
standing there, and they would just give me a casual glance. I knew
that they recognized me right off, but I was never challenged or anyone
around me was never challenged.
Mr. HUBERT. But you knew that they were there for a purpose?
Mr. STANDIFER. Now whether they were keeping unauthorized personnel
out, I don’t know. It was never mentioned to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Now this checking situation at the elevator that you just
mentioned was on Friday, November the 22d?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go off duty that day?
Mr. STANDIFER. They kept us over an hour. I went off at 12. We are
originally due off at 11 p.m., but our captain asked everybody on duty
that night to stay an extra hour to see if we could assist anyone. We
stayed until 12.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to go to the assembly room when
Oswald was brought in front of the press?
Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, do you have anything else you wish to say?
Mr. STANDIFER. One thing I might add that wasn’t in that interview
by Mr. Scott. Maybe it was 5:30 or 6 o’clock, Charlie Brown, the FBI
agent, brought Mama Oswald and a young fellow who was identified to me
as Oswald’s brother, into our office and asked if they could be put
into an interrogation room where it was private, and I told him “Yes,”
and we showed him the room that he could put them in.
And he asked me if I would get them some coffee. The coffee canteen is
just down the hall a little bit from Captain Fritz’ office. I went to
the canteen and brought him and her both back a cup of coffee.
The young fellow said, “You are most kind.” And that is the only
conversation we had.
Mr. HUBERT. They made no further comments to you at all except to thank
you, as it were, for bringing the coffee?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now I don’t think there has been any
conversation between us this morning or at anytime for that matter,
which has not been made a part of this deposition by the reporter; is
that correct?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.
Mr. STANDIFER. That is all right. I am happy to help. If I can help you
further, call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask just one more question. I think, Mr. Standifer,
you said that you are most certain about the time that you saw Ruby,
because you related it to the time of having your supper, which you
said you had in your office and that it is your custom to do so?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you also used a phrase that that custom is so well
established that people could set their clocks by it; is that correct?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. That has been your habit for quite a number of years?
Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. And has always been at 6:30?
Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw Ruby about a half hour after beginning to eat
your supper?
Mr. STANDIFER. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.
AFFIDAVIT OF ROGER C. WARNER
The following affidavit was executed by Roger C. Warner on August 4,
1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Dallas, ss_:
My name is Roger C. Warner. I am employed as a Special Agent for the
United States Secret Service at Dallas, Texas. I was employed in this
position on Nov. 24, 1963. The following is a statement regarding my
interview of Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin, aka Little Lynn, on November
24, 1963, and is true and correct to the best of my knowledge:
On November 24, 1963 at the request of Inspector Thomas Kelley,
U.S. Secret Service, I met with Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin at 3809
Middlebrook Drive, Ft. Worth, Texas. The time was about 11:00 P.M. Also
present at the interview was Bruce Ray Carlin, who was identified by
Mrs. Carlin as her husband. Mrs. Carlin related to me facts regarding a
$25 money order sent to her by Jack Ruby on 11-24-63. She also related
to me the fact that she had learned that Mr. Dewar, once employed
by Jack Ruby, had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Ruby’s night club, the
Carousel. Mrs. Carlin stated that she had also vaguely remembered
Oswald being at the club, but was by no means sure of that fact, nor of
the fact that she had ever seen Oswald.
At the beginning of the above interview Mrs. Carlin was highly
agitated and was reluctant to make any statement to me. She stated
to me that she was under the impression that Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack
Ruby and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to
assassinate President Kennedy and that she would be killed if she gave
any information to the authorities. It was only through the aid of her
husband that she would give any information at all. She twisted in her
chair, stammered in her speech, and seemed on the point of hysteria.
Later, toward the end of the interview, which lasted about 45 minutes,
Mrs. Carlin became much calmer. She stated that she had no memory of
Oswald whatsoever until she had heard Mr. Dewar’s statement repeated on
television. Also that she had no information in her possession which
indicated that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate President
Kennedy. She did ask that all information she had related be kept
confidential to prevent retaliation against her in case there was a
plot afoot. She stated that she did not wish to get involved in the
matter at hand.
The information related by Mrs. Carlin was reported by me in a
Memorandum Report dated December 12, 1963, from notes I had taken
during the interview.
Signed this 4th day of August 1964.
(S) Roger C. Warner,
ROGER C. WARNER.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE V. MEYERS
The testimony of Lawrence V. Meyers was taken at 1:45 p.m., on August
24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself to you. My name is Burt Griffin
and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
It is our practice before asking the witness to be sworn and taking
his testimony to give a brief explanation of what the basis for our
questioning will be and what generally we intend to go into. As you
probably know, the Commission on the assassination was set up pursuant
to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution
of Congress. Now, under those two official acts the Commission has
been directed to investigate into all the facts surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald,
and then to evaluate those facts and report back to President Johnson
on the facts that we find.
We have asked you to come here today in particular, Mr. Meyers,
because you have known Jack Ruby for some time and you had occasion
to talk to him both shortly before the assassination and shortly
afterwards, and before he--that is, Ruby, shot Oswald. Under the rules
of the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your
deposition. Also under these rules you are entitled to receive 3 days’
written notice before being required to testify. I believe that in this
case we telephoned you late last week and although a letter was sent to
your home which was probably received today----
Mr. MEYERS. Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday. You have not--we have not actually complied with
the 3-day notice requirement, and I will ask you at this point if you
are willing to waive that requirement and go forward with the testimony?
Mr. MEYERS. Of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me before
we proceed?
Mr. MEYERS. No. I am assuming everything you say--obviously everything
you say is a fact and you will want me to give you whatever information
I have to give you, and I will be very pleased to do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Let me ask you, then, to raise your right hand and
I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MEYERS. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name.
Mr. MEYERS. Lawrence V. Meyers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you presently live, Mr. Meyers?
Mr. MEYERS. 3950 North Lakeshore Drive, Chicago, Ill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at the time the President was
assassinated?
Mr. MEYERS. Same address.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is your employer?
Mr. MEYERS. The name of my present employers is Farber Bros., Inc.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business is that?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, it is sort of a diversified business. They are
basically manufacturers of automobile seat covers, hassocks, decorated
pillows, and I am putting them in the sporting goods business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are their offices located?
Mr. MEYERS. Memphis, Tenn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the assassination of the President, by whom
were you employed?
Mr. MEYERS. Ero Manufacturing Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were they located?
Mr. MEYERS. Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business were they in?
Mr. MEYERS. Same. They are, literally, directly competitors of each
other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your general line of work is
for Farber Bros.?
Mr. MEYERS. I am the sales manager.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at the time of the assassination, what sort of work
were you doing for Ero Manufacturing?
Mr. MEYERS. Same thing. Sales manager of Ero.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, when were you born?
Mr. MEYERS. When was I born?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. December 16, 1910.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where was that?
Mr. MEYERS. New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in the Chicago area?
Mr. MEYERS. Since 1952.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been in the same line of work, generally, since
that time?
Mr. MEYERS. More or less. I have been in selling all of my life,
various items, different products, but it has always been selling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?
Mr. MEYERS. We have three children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the ages of your children?
Mr. MEYERS. Certainly. We have a son named Ralph, who is 27, a daughter
named Vicki, who is 26, and a son named David, who is 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how you happened to first meet him?
Mr. MEYERS. Well, I met Jack Ruby originally, I would venture to
say--now, I am guessing, it could vary a little bit--possibly 6 years
ago, 6 or 7 years ago in that area, in the Carousel, in the club that
he owned in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to him by a common acquaintance?
Mr. MEYERS. No, no. What actually happened is--how much detail do you
want me to go into?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give it to us generally and if that is not enough----
Mr. MEYERS. Yes. Of course if I go into greater detail--I was there on
a business trip and footloose and fancy free and I wandered into his
club this particular night. He greeted me at the door. I knew from his
conversation, his diction, that he was not a Dallasite, a Texan. We
talked, one thing led to another. He told me he was originally from
Chicago and I, at that time, of course, lived in Chicago. So we had a
happy meeting ground. We were both Chicagoans and we visited with each
other the first time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned this was 6 or 7 years ago?
Mr. MEYERS. In that area. I am not exactly certain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that Mr. Ruby actually opened the Carousel Club
in 1960.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, then, that is when it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is clear in your mind that you met him at the
Carousel?
Mr. MEYERS. At the Carousel. There is no question about this. You must
understand one thing, Mr. Griffin. I guess I sound stupid in telling
this. But I travel incessantly, as you know from trying to find me at
various times, and sometimes I do lose track of time. Things get not
necessarily vague, but they get mixed up in context.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that and, of course, I asked you that second
question to clarify what was the most significant fact that fixes the
time.
Mr. MEYERS. The most significant fact is that my original meeting with
Jack was at the Carousel. It could have been 4 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Since the time you first met him at the Carousel Club and
up until the time President Kennedy was assassinated, give us your best
estimate of how many times you saw him?
Mr. MEYERS. Here again it would be a sheer guess, but I would say 20,
25 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any business dealings with him?
Mr. MEYERS. Actual business dealings?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk business with him?
Mr. MEYERS. His business primarily, not my business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of these conversations?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, his problems in trying to become successful, his
problems with his competitors.
Why don’t I say it this way, Mr. Griffin. I think to a degree he used
me as a sounding board as to what action and what means to take to
increase his business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some specific examples of particular
things that he talked with you about and advice that he might have
asked you for?
Mr. MEYERS. You mean businesswise?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, for example, there were two competitors, there are
and were, I should say, two competitors in Dallas named Weinstein.
These were two brothers. There were two brothers in Dallas named Abe
and Barney Weinstein who also ran the same type of operation, should we
call them striptease places or strippers or whatever you want to call
them, nightclubs if you want to glamorize them, and Jack--well, I am
going to get into specifics now with what I think of Jack. Is that all
right with you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. We would like to hear that; yes, sir.
Mr. MEYERS. Jack, to me, always gave me the impression of being--that
he always thought he was being taken advantage of. He never felt that
he had as much of a share of prosperity as anybody else, as many other
people. His complaint primarily to me against these Weinsteins was an
operation that they would call audition nights in Dallas, in these
clubs. The audition night evidently was a special night where, oh,
three or four or five different girls would come in. Some of them were
experienced strippers who worked for that fee for that night. Others
were actually amateurs, I guess, who had the dreams of being artists.
Well, we will use that word.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different times would you estimate that Jack
talked to you about the amateur nights that the Weinsteins were running?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, this is quite a few times. Quite a few times. As
a matter of fact, as I told you, I had seen Jack, I don’t know, I say
20, 25--it could be 30, 35 times. I really don’t know. And in the last
year or so he was very vehement about this thing, about the proceedings
that he had taken, the things that he had tried to do. I will get into
that if you want me to.
Also he would mention this to me many times in one night. This was
one of his--of course, this all goes back to prior to the tragedy in
Dallas now. It seems that he resented the fact that the union, I don’t
know what the name of it was, AGVA or Actors Equity or something, had
forbidden these amateur nights and he, in compliance with the union
rules, had discontinued them.
However, his competitors had not discontinued them. And he was trying
to use--I suppose you would call it--legal methods, through the union
officials, to try to get them to discontinue these things, because he
felt they were hurting his business for these particular nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever ask you to give him any assistance in those
problems?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes; he did. He asked me if I knew these various union
officials. I don’t even remember their names. Obviously, I didn’t know
them. I had no contact with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination was the most recent time
that he asked you to give him any assistance?
Mr. MEYERS. The day before. Now, when you say the assassination, you
are speaking of the assassination of the President?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. MEYERS. Thursday, the 21st. Is that correct? Was the 22d Friday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did he ever talk to you about a man in Chicago named
Barney Baker?
Mr. MEYERS. I don’t remember. The name doesn’t ring any bells. There
was a Leo somebody or other that he talked to me about who either lived
in California or New York. I don’t even remember. Maybe if you mention
other names that might ring a bell. I don’t know. Baker doesn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did he talk to you about besides his problems
with AGVA, with the amateur stripper nights, and the Weinsteins.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, what else did we talk about? Women. He is quite a
physical culture faddist, or at least he was. I don’t know whether
he still is. And one of the items that my company manufactured were
barbells, and I got him a set of barbells. We had a plant, Ero had,
still has for that matter, a plant in McKinney, Tex., which is some 30
miles north of Dallas. So I got him a set of barbells for exercise. He
used to spend a lot of time I guess at the YMCA or something of this
type.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any of his business
promotions?
Mr. MEYERS. Well, yes; to this extent. He remodeled the club. He built
runways out into the audience. Of course, he was very proud of this,
I assume like any businessman would, what he considered progress. He
wanted to know what my opinion was. What are you going to say? Great,
fine. Doing business? Wonderful!
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotions other than
his nightclubs?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes; he had a gimmick, I don’t know what the heck to call
it, some sort of a twistboard, I guess, for the want of a better word.
It is a thing that you stand on and you maneuver back and forth to--I
guess it was a body developer of some kind. He wanted to know first
whether I would be interested in merchandising it because my company
was in this field. Second, the last time I saw him face to face he
wanted to know whether my brother would be interested in handling this
as a premium item.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. MEYERS. That was Thursday, the 21st.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet his friend, Ralph Paul?
Mr. MEYERS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet his roommate, George Senator?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you meet George Senator?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, here again it would go back to shortly after I
met Jack, and I met him and talked to him, oh, I don’t know, half a
dozen times since that occasion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever discuss with you any political views that he
had?
Mr. MEYERS. No; never got involved in any of that kind of thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk about President Kennedy?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he talk about President Kennedy to you?
Mr. MEYERS. Here again I am guessing. I guess shortly after Kennedy was
elected. Shortly after--when was Kennedy elected, in 1960?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MEYERS. I don’t know. Somewhere in 1961, 1962. We discussed it a
number of times, as a matter of fact. I guess the best way to say it
is he worshipped Kennedy and his family. He sort of made--maybe it was
a father complex, father image or the family that he wished he had
himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything specific that he said about
President Kennedy?
Mr. MEYERS. No; just generalities. Other than the fact that he thought
that John F. Kennedy was possibly the greatest man that ever lived.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this topic happen to be brought up?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, I don’t know, Mr. Griffin. I don’t know. We
could have been talking about something that Kennedy had done at that
time or--I don’t know. I would have no way of knowing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the many times that you were at the Carousel Club,
did you ever see a man there who resembled Lee Oswald?
Mr. MEYERS. Never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to pick up now your contacts with Jack Ruby after
the 26th of September. Do you recall the first time that you would have
seen him after that time?
Mr. MEYERS. I couldn’t. It would be so difficult. I would have to go
back through my traveling records to seen when I was in Dallas. Now,
I could have seen him, and I repeat, I don’t remember. I could have
seen him once or twice between the 26th of September--I don’t know why
you chose that date, I assume you have your reasons--and the 21st of
November, but I frankly have no recollection of it. It just wasn’t that
important enough to me to make any--you know, to have any memory of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you happen to attend the Texas State Fair at any time?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack Ruby at that time?
Mr. MEYERS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this in the fall of 1963?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, I suppose so. What were the dates of the fair?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember being at the Texas State Fair?
Mr. MEYERS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the fall of 1963?
Mr. MEYERS. Well, now, you have me at a disadvantage. I remember
distinctly being at the Texas State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times have you been at the fair?
Mr. MEYERS. Once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that occasion.
Mr. MEYERS. Well, this was an unusual occasion. I was at Jack’s club.
Here, I don’t remember the night. I have no recollection of the date,
and he introduced me to one of his employees, one of his dancers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who that was?
Mr. MEYERS. Joy, Joyce, something like that. The name was either Joy or
Joyce. I have no recollection of the last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Joyce McDonald?
Mr. MEYERS. The last name would mean absolutely nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Joy Dale?
Mr. MEYERS. That is the girl. The Dale name brought back the name. That
was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. MEYERS. A tall blonde. Well, what happened, he introduced me to her
in his club that evening and we talked about various things and among
the things we talked about--gee, this all comes back to me now--she
was working during the day at the Texas State Fair for a concession
who were demonstrating the methods they used to make a movie or make a
motion picture, and according to--I am sorry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a show by the name of “How Hollywood Makes
Movies?”
Mr. MEYERS. It could have been. I don’t know. It had to do with
breakaway chairs and--I never saw the show. Let me tell you this right
now. And you will appreciate why, when I get to the rest.