when I arrived there.
Mr. HUBERT. You arrived about 9:30, you say?
Mr. WALDO. About 9:30; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And of course you went upstairs and so forth in the
interval before you went down into the basement?
Mr. WALDO. Yes; but I was not upstairs a matter of more than 10 to 15
minutes before I returned to the same.
Mr. HUBERT. And during the period between 9:30 and approximately 11 or
shortly before 11, when you went down into the ramp and excepting the
time when you were upstairs, which you say was very slight, you were in
the area of the Commerce Street entrance?
Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby in that area at anytime?
Mr. WALDO. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice a large TV--the vans and equipment they used?
Mr. WALDO. Oh, yes; they had been there permanently, I’d say.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby or anyone who looked like him hanging
around those vans around 10 o’clock or at anytime?
Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s all I have to ask, Mr. Waldo. Is there
anything you want to add further, sir?
Mr. WALDO. No; I would simply offer you this, if it’s of any interest.
Johnson and I within the week after the events of November 22–24,
feeling that it might be of interest, sat down and collaborated on a
manuscript which we called, “The Dallas Murders,” which was sent to
my agent in New York for possible placement. It did not get placed,
apparently, because as she informed me of the announcement before she
could get it to anyone that the Associated Press and the United Press
were going to come out with these books.
I have a copy of that with me, and if it would be of any interest, I
would be personally happy to have the Commission have it.
Mr. HUBERT. I do not know if they wish it, but suppose that we note
it, and of course it has been noted by the mere fact that you stated
it, with the understanding that if it is desired, the general counsel
of the Commission or the Commission itself could write to you, I
suppose, and you would be willing to send it on. It’s a manuscript, as
I understand it?
Mr. WALDO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you. I don’t think you and I have met
before today?
Mr. WALDO. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think we’ve had any conversation since we’ve met
that has not been recorded, do you agree with that?
Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed.
Mr. WALDO. All right.
TESTIMONY OF CLYDE FRANKLIN GOODSON
The testimony of Clyde Franklin Goodson was taken at 2:45 p.m., on July
14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Clyde F. Goodson. Mr.
Goodson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of
the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Goodson, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mr. Goodson, I think you have appeared today by virtue of the
general request addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, asking that he make
available for deposition certain officers of the police force, is that
correct?
Mr. GOODSON. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every witness is
entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their
deposition. In this case, of course you have not had that 3-day notice.
But the rules also provide that any witness may waive the notice and
proceed to testify without the notice, and I ask you now since you have
not received the written notice, whether you are willing to waive the
notice and proceed to testify now?
Mr. GOODSON. I am.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. GOODSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please.
Mr. GOODSON. Clyde Franklin Goodson.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your address?
Mr. GOODSON. 6529 Oleta Dr.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. GOODSON. A policeman for the city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. GOODSON. About 7½ years.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. GOODSON. Twenty-nine.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goodson, I have just a moment ago handed to you a
report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain, dated June
18, 1964, consisting of one page, which I have marked for the purpose
of identification on the right-hand margin as follows:
“Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Clyde F.
Goodson,” under which I have written my name.
Have you read this document, sir?
Mr. GOODSON. I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that correctly state the entire contents of the
interview and the substance of the interview?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are the facts stated therein, so far as you remember,
correct?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known Jack Ruby prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. GOODSON. I would say the first time I saw him was approximately 5
years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet him?
Mr. GOODSON. The district that I worked for about 6 years was in
the downtown area, and on the edge of the South Dallas area, and by
answering calls in that vicinity and routine checks of his place of
business.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the Vegas Club?
Mr. GOODSON. The Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet him in connection with the Vegas or at
the Vegas Club?
Mr. GOODSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any social meetings?
Mr. GOODSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say then that the only time you saw him
during the past 5 years, which is from the time you first met him, was
in connection with some official police business?
Mr. GOODSON. It was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times during those last 5 years do you suppose you
have seen Ruby?
Mr. GOODSON. Oh, I guess just an estimate, six or seven times.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the last time prior to November 22, 1963, that you
saw him, do you suppose?
Mr. GOODSON. I would say about 3 months before; 2 or 3 months before.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the occasion?
Mr. GOODSON. Not specifically. I remember 2 or 3 months before then,
my partner and I--I don’t recall who I was working with at that
time--answered a call there on Commerce Street at one of the bars, who
was supposed to be drunk and causing a disturbance. They said he left
and went next door, which was another small bar, and we went there,
and the people said he had been there, but had just left out. So the
Carousel was the next place, and we walked in and checked it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for a drunk?
Mr. GOODSON. We were looking for a drunk.
Mr. HUBERT. That had been reported causing a disturbance?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went into the Carousel finally?
Mr. GOODSON. We went into the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby then?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes; he was up there, and I just talked to him for a few
minutes, the most I have ever talked to him, and then we left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know your name?
Mr. GOODSON. I don’t think he did.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew his name?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, I knew him when I saw him; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him by name, or merely by sight?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, I knew him by name and by sight. I knew who he was
when I saw him.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than the five or six times during the last 5 years
that you did see him on official duty, did you see him anytime
unofficially in the sense of just walking down the street or passing
him or saying hello, or passing the time of day, or something like that?
Mr. GOODSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you did not go to his club on a social basis?
Mr. GOODSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were on duty at the entrance of the
homicide bureau on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department
building starting at 5:30 p.m., is that correct?
Mr. GOODSON. Approximately 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you come on duty at that time?
Mr. GOODSON. No; I had been on duty all day.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been up on the third floor prior to 5:30?
Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I hadn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Where had you been?
Mr. GOODSON. I was working my regular district during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. GOODSON. It was district No. 103. Starts on the edge of the
downtown area and goes south on Corinth Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to 5:30 on November 22 you had no occasion to be in
the headquarters building at all?
Mr. GOODSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were called in to perform some duty there?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that duty?
Mr. GOODSON. They assigned me to work at the door there in the homicide
bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Who assigned you?
Mr. GOODSON. Sergeant Richardson.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. GOODSON. Richardson.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir. He told me that I was to stand at the door and
to let no one in except police officers that were investigating the
case, and FBI, and Secret Service.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you were to stand there, what did they mean?
Mr. GOODSON. I stood directly in front of the door.
Mr. HUBERT. What door?
Mr. GOODSON. To the homicide bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone else with you?
Mr. GOODSON. The officers up and down the hallway, but I don’t recall
anyone standing right there at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. No one was put in a stationary position such as you were?
Mr. GOODSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. GOODSON. I stayed there, oh, to about 7:30 or so; around 7:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you fix the time that you began that duty at
5:30?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, my regular assignment ended at 3:30, and it was
about 4 o’clock before I got over to the city hall, and I was told to
report to the detail room where I stayed some 40 minutes, I would say,
and then I was assigned up there on the door to the homicide bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you fix the time when you left that detail at 7:30?
Mr. GOODSON. It was just as I recall, it was around 7:30. No specific
reason to say that it was exactly 7:30. I don’t recall looking at the
exact time. We had to check off what time we left.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to leave by anyone?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was relieved by another officer.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name?
Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you were allowed to go home?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did so?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did you see Jack Ruby on the third floor of the Dallas
City Jail during the period 5:30 to 7:30 when you were standing guard
before the homicide bureau door?
Mr. GOODSON. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you have mentioned that you, about 6 p.m., saw
a man that you thought resembled Jack Ruby?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, I didn’t say he resembled Jack Ruby. I said that
possibly someone would mistake him for Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that that was about 6 o’clock?
Mr. GOODSON. Approximately. Just estimating from the time I had been
there until the time this person came up.
Mr. HUBERT. Now this person that you referred to is the one I think you
say that fitted the description of Jack Ruby?
Mr. GOODSON. He resembled him some, as far as age and height and so
forth.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do when he came up?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, when he came up there, he was about two-thirds
drunk, and he was kind of loud, and he came over to the door and
was as though he was going to walk in, and I asked him who he was,
and he began asking me what had happened and what was going on and
what was being done so far as what had happened, and he said that he
wanted inside, and I asked him who he was, and he said he was with a
newspaperman from the White House press, and he never did show me any
identification.
Mr. HUBERT. He did show you?
Mr. GOODSON. He did not. I told him that he would have to wait in the
hallway with the other news people.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were you aware that they were checking the people on
the third floor for identification as news people?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, I didn’t know whether they were or not. They had
some officers assigned there at the elevator and the stairway. I don’t
know what their job was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you call attention to anyone that this man you have
just described had attempted to get into the office, and that he was in
what you considered to be a drunken condition, or semidrunken condition?
Mr. GOODSON. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he just go away then?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, he stood around there for quite awhile talking to
the other newsmen.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he passing out cards or anything of that sort?
Mr. GOODSON. Not that I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed, do you remember?
Mr. GOODSON. He had on a suit and dark-colored----
Mr. HUBERT. Hat?
Mr. GOODSON. No; he didn’t have on a hat. Wore glasses. His hair was
dark, but it had a lot of gray around the temples, around the edge of
his hairline.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you are positive that that man was not
Jack Ruby?
Mr. GOODSON. This person was not Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. What was there about him that you thought made him fit the
description of Jack Ruby?
Mr. GOODSON. He was approximately the same age and same height and
built the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. Same hair?
Mr. GOODSON. Well, I don’t believe Ruby would have as much gray in his
hair as he had.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty any day after the 22d?
Mr. GOODSON. Was I on duty, you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. At the city hall, at the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. GOODSON. On the door up there of the homicide bureau?
Mr. HUBERT. Or any place?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was. That was on a Saturday, I believe. I was
off Sunday and Monday, and I came back the next Tuesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, the days where you were posted at the door before
homicide bureau, was that on the 22d or 23d?
Mr. GOODSON. It was on the 22d.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on the 23d were you on duty that Saturday?
Mr. GOODSON. I was off Sunday and Monday. That was on a Saturday, the
23d?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GOODSON. I was on duty then.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty? At headquarters?
Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I was working my regular district.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby during any time on the 22d, 23d,
or 24th?
Mr. GOODSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Detective Sandy Standifer?
Mr. GOODSON. Not that I recall; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to anyone that you had seen a man that fit
the description of Jack Ruby, as you have stated, at the time and place
that you have stated? But that he was not Jack Ruby? Other than the
statement to the FBI?
Mr. GOODSON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard that there are reports that Jack Ruby did
attempt to get into the homicide office?
Mr. GOODSON. Just rumors is all I have heard of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any report to anyone concerning your seeing
this man who fit the description of Jack Ruby, but it was not he?
Mr. GOODSON. I don’t think he fit the description of him close enough
that anyone that knew him or had seen him before--I don’t believe he
fit the description close enough to assume that that was him.
That is the only person I could think of that would even come close to
resembling him, would be up there that I saw there.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, that anyone that knew Jack Ruby at all would know
immediately that this man was not Jack Ruby?
Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all. Can you think of
anything that we have discussed off the record? I don’t believe there
have been any off-the-record discussion that has not been made a part
of this deposition.
Mr. GOODSON. No; not that I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much for coming down.
TESTIMONY OF RONALD LEE JENKINS
The testimony of Ronald Lee Jenkins was taken at 1 p.m. on July 14,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ronald L. Jenkins. Mr. Jenkins,
my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Jenkins, the matter of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mr. Jenkins, you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the
President’s Commission, asking you to appear before me to take your
deposition, is that correct?
Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you received that letter, sir?
Mr. JENKINS. The latter part of last week. I don’t know which day,
exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been Friday, or earlier?
Mr. JENKINS. I believe earlier. I believe it was July 10 or earlier.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. JENKINS. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?
Mr. JENKINS. Ronald Lee Jenkins.
Mr. HUBERT. And your address?
Mr. JENKINS. 1048 South Bryan, Mesquite, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. JENKINS. Twenty-seven.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. JENKINS. A news editor for KBOX Radio, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been connected with that station for very long?
Mr. JENKINS. I have been connected with KBOX since the 1st of August of
1963.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?
Mr. JENKINS. I was news director at KAYC at Beaumont, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with that organization?
Mr. JENKINS. Fourteen months.
Mr. HUBERT. Then prior to that, what was your occupation?
Mr. JENKINS. Three and a half years, U.S. Army News Corps to the
American Forces Network.
Mr. HUBERT. Honorable discharge?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jenkins, I have previously handed you, and I think
you have read a document which purports to be a report of an interview
of you by Special FBI Agents Edmond Hardin and Robert J. Wilkinson on
December 10, 1963, the document consisting of three pages.
For the purpose of identification, I have marked the first page as
follows, to wit: In the right-hand margin, “Dallas, Texas, July 14,
1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Ronald L. Jenkins,” under which
I have signed my name, and I have placed my initials in the lower
right-hand corner of the second and third pages.
Now I ask you again whether or not you have had an opportunity to read
this document, Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. JENKINS. I have.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document represents a
fair statement and correct statement of the interview and of the facts
stated therein?
Mr. JENKINS. Except for the first paragraph.
Mr. HUBERT. I noticed you made a little mark as to the third paragraph
on page 1.
Mr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In which reference is made to your participation in the
coverage of the President Kennedy tour with a certain David King of
UPI, Dallas. I think it is as to that that you wish to address yourself?
Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What have you to say about that?
Mr. JENKINS. I have not associated, nor did I know David King or anyone
by that name. In fact, I still don’t. At that time we did have a new
editor by the name of Karl King, and he was our anchor man. He was the
new man on the air at the time the assassination occurred.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he with UPI?
Mr. JENKINS. Following the assassination, he was relieved from KBOX and
subsequently he went to work part time with UPI as an audio man. He is
now employed as a newsman with WBAP Television in Fort Worth. This is
the only Mr. King that I have had any close dealings with at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now other than that correction in Exhibit No. 1, have you
any other corrections to make?
Mr. JENKINS. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. About any part of it?
Mr. JENKINS. No corrections.
Mr. HUBERT. I do know, however, that on page 3 in the third paragraph
apparently on the original, the name Robert Thompson has been scratched
and the name James Robert Thornton has been written above that.
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the name James Robert Thornton correct?
Mr. JENKINS. I do not know the man’s real name. I only know him by
the name of Bob Thornton, and he is with FAA Radio, and I believe
television too.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, it was not Robert Thompson?
Mr. JENKINS. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you state in Exhibit No. 1 that you saw Jack Ruby, I
believe, on November 22 on the third floor of the Dallas police station
between the hours of 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. Did you know Ruby prior to
November 22, 1963?
Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him at all?
Mr. JENKINS. No; I hadn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his existence?
Mr. JENKINS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now apparently later you identified Ruby as a man that you
had seen on the third floor on November 22, and I ask you now how you
identified the man that you saw on the 22d as Jack Ruby whom you did
not know on the 22d?
Mr. JENKINS. I don’t think I ever have said that I saw him for sure
and could identify him for sure. It was strictly by recall. I was able
to see him in person, I believe it was, on the afternoon of the Oswald
shooting. I think that was the 24th.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him then?
Mr. JENKINS. Just outside Capt. Will Fritz’ office in the Dallas Police
Department. He was being brought down from, I would suppose, the city
jail, brought down the corridor past the gathering of newsmen, and I
was one of the few who managed to just have been standing outside of
Captain Fritz’ office door, and he passed within a few feet of me. He
was very familiar, and the face was familiar, and it just seemed to
me that I had seen the man on the Friday night previous. This was the
first thing that struck me when I did see him, because I had not seen
him following the Oswald shooting up until that moment.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact that immediately upon seeing him under the
circumstances and the time and conditions that you stated, that you had
the mental reaction that you had seen this man before?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that time associate him with the man you had
seen on the 22d?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Immediately?
Mr. JENKINS. Well, it was a matter of a few minutes. I was trying to
think where I had seen him before, and then it occurred to me that I
had seen him in the hallway near the elevator shaft of the third floor
on the evening of the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said also that you saw him later that Friday
night at the time in the assembly room?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it you were in the assembly room?
Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you did see a man whom you now think was Jack Ruby
in that room?
Mr. JENKINS. I am quite sure it seemed to me it was the same man.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him on the 24th under the conditions that you
stated and after reflection, did you also think that the Jack Ruby you
saw on the 24th was also the man you had seen in the assembly room?