your estimate of the situation from what you knew of him and of his
operations?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see your question mark as to the last paragraph too?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, this is just my question here in regards to his
telling me he had an injunction against another club advertising
amateur nights of strippers. His point which he was attempting to
show me one day--the injunction, which at the moment I was busy and
didn’t have time to wait for him and excused myself--I did not see an
injunction and this was just his word, and it was just the fact that
these amateur nights as such--my understanding of the law reads--you
can’t work as an entertainer unless you are licensed to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, all the statement says is that some time before Ruby
had told you that, and is it true, that he did tell you that?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right “* * * only a short time before the assassination.”
Now, this was misleading--it was several days before. It wasn’t in
terms of minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see no other questions, so I take it that otherwise
this statement represents a fair and correct report of the interview
with you, as amended and as clarified, or is there anything else?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I believe that will clarify any questions in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby at any time about the Weissman ad?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that ad at all?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I am.
Mr. HUBERT. He never spoke to you about that?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He never complained to you or made any comment to you
whatsoever?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No, he did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to anyone else within your hearing?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the Weissman ad in this
sense--did you have anything to do with placing it, or do you know who
placed it?
Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. You know nothing about how it got into the paper or who
placed it?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Jack Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. When Jack Ruby left that day, when he left the offices?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No, to ascertain a time, I would not try and hazard a
guess, because his appearance there at the paper was a very commonplace
thing, and to pay any particular attention as to when he comes and
goes, we didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any independent recollection of having seen him
after the first time you saw him when you first came in?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I’d say I saw him in and about the office for
approximately 30 minutes afterward.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t particularly notice his departure because there
was no particular reason why you should?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do think he was there for 30 minutes after you
first arrived--and after you first saw him?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talking to Mr. Newnam?
Mr. SAUNDERS. He was over in the area of Mr. Newnam’s desk, where he
was normally placing his ads--where he would normally be placing his
ads--through Mr. Newnam. In my own recollection as to whether it was
Mr. Newnam or another salesman taking care of him at the time, I can’t
recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to lunch with Mr. Newnam that day?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, if you know, whether Ruby was still there
when the announcement that an officer had been shot, came over the news?
Mr. SAUNDERS. The announcement of an officer having been shot was made
at approximately the same time as I entered, that there was conjecture
at that time as to whether there was an officer--now, the officer
you’re speaking of being Tippit?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I would say he was not there at that time. There was
conjecture that there might have been a Secret Service agent shot along
with Kennedy at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That was when I first came in--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Tippit matter was considerably later, wasn’t it?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--it was considerably later, and to my knowledge
Jack Ruby had departed at that time. Now, he might have been in another
area of the building, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe he had departed?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I don’t recall having seen him. As I say, I can remember
him being around for approximately 30 minutes and it was considerably
longer than that before the report on the Tippit shooting came through.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact, of course, that the report on the President’s
death came after the report of the shooting of Tippit?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you would think that Ruby was gone when the announcement
of the President’s death was made?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed that in your statement which has been
identified as Exhibit No. 1, you have made some remarks concerning your
knowledge of Jack Ruby and his striving for recognition and his desire
to do the right things and his respect for authority, and so forth. Can
you give us some examples that would illustrate these characteristics?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack was always hovering around people in the
newspaper business for some reason.
If myself or another salesman showed up at one of his clubs, it was
almost the red-carpet treatment, which as advertising salesmen, we have
no way to help him. We felt it was possibly a case of just wanting to
be around newspaper people.
I know for a fact that Ruby quite often talked of knowing this police
officer or that official in a bragging type manner.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a name-dropping situation?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Sort of a name-dropping situation.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was consistent, and for a long time?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--as long as I knew him, and at any time that he
could be around anyone that had a name, regardless of what position,
whether it be in the entertainment business, whether it be a columnist,
or whether it be a city official.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a specific example of that? If you could give
us some specific examples, it would be helpful.
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just quoting a specific example, with names--it’s
been so long ago that I would hate to hazard a guess. It would just be
a guess on my part.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his desire to do the right thing, which you
recognize as a characteristic of this man, can you give me any examples
of that?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, from the time I first knew him, he always wanted
to, and in conversations with him about his business, which was normal
in our contact, he would want to strive to make his club better than
the next club, so to speak, and he would constantly point out areas
where if there was any rowdiness or loud, drunkenness-type parties in
his club, he would throw them out.
Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it happen?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I’ve seen it happen, and not 3 weeks before the
assassination--a Mr. Donald Campbell and myself, another advertising
salesman, had visited for the first time his club.
Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel Club?
Mr. SAUNDERS. His Club Carousel, and at the time we were there, again
it was very much the red-carpet treatment, wanting to know our opinions
on his acts, and apologizing if the emcee had corny jokes, but he was
working hard, and he had nothing but good things to say about most
people, and the evening we were there there was a customer who had
gotten a little out of hand, certainly nothing that you won’t see in
any nightclub, and right away Jack Ruby took offense at it and told the
person to leave and threw him out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he use force to do so?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; he just went over and very pointedly told the man
“This is not allowed in this club. Will you get up and leave right
now--out. We don’t want you around.”
Mr. HUBERT. And the man left?
Mr. SAUNDERS. And the man left. As far as seeing him use force, I have
never seen him use force. I have heard that he did on occasion use
force, however, it was surprising to me because I never thought of Jack
Ruby as being one who could physically or being physically capable of
using force. However, I was evidently mistaken on that point.
Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned as a characteristic of him that he
seemed to have respect for authority?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in the word “authority” is taken possibly out of
context I should say--well, it’s almost the name dropping--anyone with
any degree of notoriety.
Mr. HUBERT. And that would include of course people who had actual
authority?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything concerning any underworld
associations he might have had?
Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he express any opinion with regard to them?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no name dropping there?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or in that area?
Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express to you any sensitivity or consciousness
about his Jewish background or the position of the Jew in society?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not that I recall. Many people that I call on are
Jewish, in my particular phase of business, and this area is very
commonplace with me and never taken offense at or was there any reason
to bring it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express any sensitivity in that area, or did
you observe any?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, by way of closing this interview, I will ask you first
of all if you have anything else you want to say?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Not that I can recall. I feel the statement pretty well
covers any pertinent facts that I might be aware of.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been a very slight bit of conversation
between us prior to the time this interview began, but I want to ask
you whether in that slight conversation there was anything covered or
mentioned that has not been recorded during the course of the interview?
Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. SAUNDERS. Thank you. I appreciate your time.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, and I’m sorry to have kept you waiting.
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s all right. Thank you again.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF THAYER WALDO
The testimony of Thayer Waldo was taken at 12:50 p.m., on June 27,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Thayer Waldo.
Mr. Waldo, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the
joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted
by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order
and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn
deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Waldo, the nature of
the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death
of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general
inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his movements and operations and
associates and so forth.
I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the
President’s Commission asking you to be present, is that correct?
Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter?
Mr. WALDO. On, as nearly as I can recall, Tuesday last.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and take the oath, please?
Mr. WALDO. Surely.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WALDO. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please?
Mr. WALDO. Thayer Waldo. There is no middle initial.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. WALDO. 200 Burnett Street in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Apartment 520?
Mr. WALDO. No; I’ve moved from that. It’s now 926.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Fort Worth?
Mr. WALDO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Waldo?
Mr. WALDO. I am a newspaper reporter.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been such?
Mr. WALDO. You mean in the profession?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. WALDO. Approximately 24 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?
Mr. WALDO. Just a year.
Mr. HUBERT. With what newspaper were you prior to joining the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram?
Mr. WALDO. Well, for several years before joining the Star-Telegram I
was abroad as a foreign correspondent in Mexico, Cuba until it was no
longer possible to remain in Cuba, and then in the Dominican Republic.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Waldo, I have just a moment ago handed you a document
consisting of five pages which purports to be a report of an interview
of you by FBI Agents Joseph L. Scott and Tom Carter on November 30,
1963, which I have marked for the purpose of identification as follows:
“Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of
Thayer Waldo” and “Leon D. Hubert” which I have placed on the margin
of the first page of that document, the right-hand margin, and on all
four pages I have identified them by placing my initials in the lower
right-hand corner on those pages. Have you had an opportunity to read
this, sir?
Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether this document correctly reflects the
interview and the truth as far as you know it. If you have any place,
at which you would like to make a comment, point it out so that I may
get into the record just what you are talking about, then you can make
your comment.
Mr. WALDO. The report of the transcription here is substantially
correct. I have pointed out to you previously two minor discrepancies.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, one of them is on page 3, the second paragraph--the
fifth and sixth lines reading as follows, to wit: “Waldo identified
himself over the telephone by name and by newspaper and asked the
Sergeant if Oswald had been moved. Waldo said the Sergeant said ‘No,
he would be moved in one-half or two hours’”. Now, I think you want to
address yourself to those two sentences?
Mr. WALDO. That’s right. The circumstance was that we had remained,
I say “we”, that is a colleague of mine with the same newspaper, Ed
Johnson and I, who were forming the team. We had remained at police
headquarters until about 1:30 a.m. on the morning of the 24th of
November. Then, having made arrangements with the Associated Press
man, who was to be on duty throughout the night, to give us a call
immediately if there was any indication that Oswald was going to be
moved in the small hours of the morning, we retired and left word at
the Hilton Hotel desk and if no other call came through, they were to
ring us at 7 a.m.
We were awakened by that call and I was so convinced that the
approximate pinpointing by police officials on the day before of
the time of Oswald’s transfer was a ruse, that my first thought on
awakening or on being awakened was that there had been some slip-up
in notifying us. Therefore, I immediately tried to call the pressroom
at police headquarters. The telephone rang half a dozen times, there
was no answer, I got the police department switchboard operator back
and asked to be transferred to the homicide department. That call was
answered by a man who identified himself quickly as Sergeant so-and-so.
I do not recall the name--I’m not even sure I caught it at the time,
and in my anxiety to learn the facts, I did not even think to identify
myself either by name or organization but simply asked, “Have they
moved Oswald yet?” Without asking me who I was, the sergeant replied,
“No, sir; that will be in about 2 hours from now.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. WALDO. That was within 7 minutes--say, 7:05.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you had an arrangement with the Associated Press
man to call you if there was any sign of moving him. May I ask whether
that was an individual arrangement that you made or was that made for
all newspaper people?
Mr. WALDO. No; at the time we made this--you see, after Chief Curry and
Capt. Will Fritz of homicide division had both repeated several times
that there would be no further movement or interviewing of the prisoner
that day, and they themselves had left the building and all the offices
were locked up, only a few of us still thought that there might be
something going to take place and remained behind in the pressroom, so
that about 1:30 a.m. when the janitors had moved in, and we finally
decided for the moment at least, nothing was going to happen, the
Associated Press man who was one of us--I’d say there were perhaps six
of us at that time in the pressroom, and I’m trying to think of his
name--Ray Holcomb [spelling] H-o-l-c-o-m-b.
Mr. HUBERT. Of the Associated Press?
Mr. WALDO. Of the Associated Press, who was then going off duty,
volunteered to Johnson and myself, because we had expressed reluctance
to leave the pressroom and yet were pretty “bushed” by that time,
having had no sleep the night before, he said, “We’ll have a man on
duty throughout the night and we’ll be checking in here regularly. I
can let you know the minute anything happens, if you like,” and that
was the arrangement.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this made with all the people in the pressroom or just
made with you two?
Mr. WALDO. I don’t recall that anybody else requested such an
arrangement or had it made with them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether all the other people who left before
you did had similar arrangements to be called in the event there was a
sudden move?
Mr. WALDO. I do not--I did not specifically hear anybody make such
arrangements.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said there was one other place in this report
which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1 that you wish to comment
upon, and I think it’s the last paragraph on page 5. What do you wish
to say about that?
Mr. WALDO. Well, it mentions here that “Waldo stated he did not recall
seeing Ruby while on the third floor on the night of November 23, 1963,
talk to anyone except when handing out his cards.” The occasion was not
at night. That was in the mid- or late afternoon of that date, November
23. I am not positive of the time but recall it as being approximately
4 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. But the point is that you did not see him on the night of
the 23d?
Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I do not recall seeing Ruby after, oh, let’s say,
4:30 to 5 p.m. on Saturday until the events of the following morning.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you did see him on the 23d or around 4 o’clock or
whatever time it was, you did not see him talk to anyone except when he
was handing out cards?
Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not see him myself talk to anyone. I was told
a number of things later by people, fragments of conversation, but of
my own knowledge, I cannot testify to that.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time that you did see him on the
afternoon of the 23d?
Mr. WALDO. Only in fact and in truth by recalling that it was 6 or
minutes before 6, I believe, about 3 to 4 minutes of 6 when Chief
Curry made his announcement that Oswald would be transferred to the
county jail by 10 a.m. the following morning, and then thinking back
on the time lapse, I would say there was roughly a 2-hour time lapse,
remembering the things I did in between the two events, which is close.
Mr. HUBERT. So that it would be fair to say that the last time you saw
Ruby up on the third floor of the police building on the 23d was around
4 o’clock in the afternoon?
Mr. WALDO. Well, certainly no later than 5. I saw him--I glimpsed him
also apparently passing out cards and giving the same brief line of
chatter to several people after myself, and it might have been half an
hour afterwards and it might even have been 45 minutes, but no later
certainly than 5 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. And I see that you fixed it by relating it to Chief Curry’s
announcement and then backing off from that time?
Mr. WALDO. That’s correct, sir. I did look at the clock as soon as we
received Chief Curry’s announcement to know who would be on my desk of
the newspaper to receive it and recall that it was 3 to 4 minutes of 6.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing Ruby at the jail on Friday afternoon
or night?
Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I do not. It is stated in there that I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby at all, sir?
Mr. WALDO. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him or meet the man you now know to
be Ruby?
Mr. WALDO. Well, if it can be called a meeting, it would be at
approximately 2 p.m., Sunday, November the 24th when he was brought
down from his seventh floor, I believe it’s the seventh floor jail cell
to homicide offices on the third floor of Dallas Police Headquarters
for interrogation and was led down the corridor from the jail elevator
to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. I had reference really to a meeting on the 23d, the day
before--Saturday--but apparently you don’t classify that as a meeting.
I think you saw the man that you ultimately identified as Ruby on the
third floor or in the police building on Saturday?
Mr. WALDO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see him?
Mr. WALDO. I would say 5 or 10 minutes before he came up and gave me
a card. I noticed he was passing out cards and saying something to
people. There was such bedlam in the corridor of the third floor with
the television apparatus that’s in there--unless someone was less than
10 feet from you, you could not hear what was being said.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you observed Ruby about 10 minutes before you
had any further contact with him?
Mr. WALDO. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that called your attention to him
especially?
Mr. WALDO. Only, I might say, a somewhat aggressive manner. I noticed
that he was plucking at somebody’s sleeve to turn them around, and a
few minutes later, seeing him give that man a card, and then a few
minutes--2 or 3 minutes later--seeing him moving closer to where I
was, giving out another card--as he gave out the card, giving the man
a hearty slap on the arm--although I could not catch the words, I
could catch the rather strident tone of his voice, and when he came up
to me, although he did not behave in as gratuitously familiar a way
in the sense of either clutching at my clothing or patting me, there
was still a sort of overdone ingratiating manner as he gave out this
card and said, and I’ll have to paraphrase it--I cannot remember the
exact words--but it was something to this effect, “You’re one of the
boys, aren’t you? Here’s my card with both my clubs on it. Everybody
around here knows me. Ask anybody who Jack Ruby is. As soon as you
get a chance, I want all of you boys to come over to my place, the
one downtown here is more convenient, and have a drink on me. I’ll be
seeing you.” That’s approximately it.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. WALDO. Approximately 4 o’clock, I would say, again basing it on my
memory. I did not have a clock, I did not look at a watch or have a
clock in vision at that moment.
Mr. HUBERT. It could have been as late as 5, you think?
Mr. WALDO. It could have been; yes. Time telescoped itself remarkably
that day.
Mr. HUBERT. What leeway can you give on the 4 o’clock time the other
way, that is, toward 3 p.m.?
Mr. WALDO. Let me think about that a moment. It’s very, very difficult
to be even semi-exact about it at this distance. However, I would
certainly have to say in all honesty that there could be half to
three-quarters of an hour--I could be off--either way.
Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, I just noticed that on page 4 of the report
to the FBI, the very last sentence on that page, the last line, that’s
Exhibit No. 1, there is also a reference to the night of November 23,
and since you have changed it previously to the afternoon, I would say
that that applies to that, too, doesn’t it?
Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the last line on page 4 of Exhibit No. 1,
where it says “night of November 23” should read “afternoon of November
23” where it’s there and the times would be as we have been discussing?
Mr. WALDO. Exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby at any time prior to this occasion you
have just described?
Mr. WALDO. Not to recall him; no.