you’d look around and people were crying, some of them were crying. He
didn’t shed a tear, that I saw. Other people were staring at the floor,
but this guy had an ashen, pale look that, you know, like he was in a
state of shock.
Mr. HUBERT. And you noticed it then?
Mr. REA. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course afterwards, I suppose, when he became more
closely connected with the matter, your recollection went back to that
mental image?
Mr. REA. That’s right. I was just getting out of church when this
happened. I didn’t watch it on television, so when we came out we tuned
in the radio or right away turned it on and all this big bedlam was
going on, that Oswald had been shot, and so within 5 minutes I was
home, and within another 5 minutes this Georgia Mayor who also lives in
Lancaster called, called over, and we discussed it at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you discussed your former recollection that he
seemed to be more shocked than anyone else?
Mr. REA. Oh, yes; or the sort of strange look that he had, and like
I said--also--whether that’s the normal thing for him under similar
circumstances, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about closing the club at any time on
that day?
Mr. REA. I never one time talked to him. I had no conversation with
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the shooting of the officer?
Mr. REA. Pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you about the shooting of the
officer?
Mr. REA. No; I did not hear him make any comment of any kind to
anybody. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not aware whether he even knew that the officer had
been shot?
Mr. REA. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him make any comment about the Weissman ad?
Mr. REA. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with what the Weissman ad is?
Mr. REA. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He never commented to you about it?
Mr. REA. Not to me; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the taking of the Weissman
ad or placing it?
Mr. REA. No, sir; not a thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did?
Mr. REA. I believe--well, Cy Wagner approved it. He’s the director of
advertising, and a boy by the name of Dick Houston, I believe, actually
took the money and ordered the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time Ruby left the second floor of the
Dallas Morning News Building?
Mr. REA. No, sir; I couldn’t tell you that. I just don’t know. I left
about--personally--oh, I’d say about 3 o’clock myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there then?
Mr. REA. Well, he was there then. I believe he was--I don’t even
remember--I can’t remember that--I don’t know. It’s a mere guess, but
I’m almost positive he was still there. Now, I don’t know--he could
have gone and come back--I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that he might have been there as late
as 3 o’clock?
Mr. REA. Well, it just seemed like--it seemed to me like he was there
all afternoon. Now, he may not have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure about your leaving at 3 o’clock?
Mr. REA. I’m not positive about it--no--I do know I went downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear of the President’s death?
Mr. REA. Oh, well, when they announced it--whenever it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard the announcement?
Mr. REA. Yes; I heard the announcement.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there then?
Mr. REA. Well, I believe that when I actually heard that he was dead,
that when they made the official announcement, that I was watching it
on television in Dick Jeffery’s office and there were, I guess, 50
people around at the time milling around. I don’t know whether he was
there or not.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him?
Mr. REA. It was likely that he was--I could not swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any particular reaction that he had to the
President’s death as opposed to the shooting of the President?
Mr. REA. No; I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him leave, physically?
Mr. REA. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all. Have you any other comment to
make?
Mr. REA. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby thereafter?
Mr. REA. No, sir; well, I was subpenaed, well, not subpenaed
either--they just called me.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean before the 24th?
Mr. REA. Oh, no--no.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t think there has been any conversation between
us that has been off the record, is that right?
Mr. REA. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Everything that has occurred between us has been on the
record?
Mr. REA. Oh, yes; as far as I’m concerned.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.
Mr. REA. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. SAUNDERS
The testimony of Richard L. Saunders was taken at 11:45 a.m., on June
26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Richard L. Saunders.
Mr. Saunders, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of
Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I
have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Saunders, the nature
of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the
death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the
general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates
and his movements such as you may know them on the pertinent dates.
Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the
President’s Commission, asking you to come, is that correct?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you recall?
Mr. SAUNDERS. The date of the letter is June 22, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
Mr. SAUNDERS. On June 24.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission pursuant to the
joint resolution of Congress, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day
written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules
also provide that they may waive that written notice if they see fit to
do so and I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and
testify now?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That is correct. I will.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, so that I may administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I will.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, first of all, I have previously handed to you so that
you could read it, a document consisting of three pages, and which I
have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the
right-hand margin I have marked “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1, Deposition of Richard L. Saunders”, below which I have signed my
name. The document as I said, consists of three pages and I have marked
on the second and third pages my initials in the lower right-hand
corner. This purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and
Garris on December 4, 1963.
I have asked you to read it and to state to me now whether or not this
is a correct report of that interview. I notice that there are some
little question marks that you have here and perhaps it is best to take
them one by one.
Mr. SAUNDERS. In general substance, that is a correct statement. There
are some minor clarification points which I would like to bring out.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there is a question mark, apparently, next
to the last sentence of the second paragraph on page 1, which sentence
reads as follows: “He estimated that it took him a total of 10 minutes
to arrive at his office after the President’s car passed him and said
that this would make his arrival time at approximately 12:40 p.m.” Do
you have any comment to make about that, sir?
Mr. SAUNDERS. The travel time of 10 minutes is correct. The arrival
time of 12:40 would be dependent upon the time of the assassination,
which I am not aware of at this moment. In other words, if the
President was shot at 12:30, I would have arrived at approximately
12:40.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the President himself passed you?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I was approximately 100 yards west of the triple
underpass, at the railroad overpass at Stemmons.
Mr. HUBERT. And you walked back?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I was in my automobile. My car was parked at that
underpass and I was outside of the car at a police motorcycle barricade.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact witness the shooting?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we could not see the actual site. We could see the
building the Texas School Book Depository Building, but you could not
see the area of the assassination from the area where I was positioned.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left the position from which you walked, were you
then aware that there had been some shots fired?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes. There was one of our reporters, Mr. Larry Grove, was
at that point with me and I asked Larry what had happened and he said
both Connally and Kennedy had been shot. At that moment a directive
came over the police radio on one of the motorcycles that the shooting
came from--and they directed the personnel--whoever they were talking
to over the radio to the given window, which has now been purported
that from which the shots of the assassin came.
Mr. HUBERT. But you heard about it over the police radio of a
motorcycle standing nearby where you were?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police announcement that the shots had come
from a particular window in the Texas Depository Building?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if they described the window on the radio?
Mr. SAUNDERS. They said--I believe--it was the next to the top floor,
an open window at the far right-hand side, and then there was evidently
some communication there which I missed, and they clarified, “No; as
you are standing facing the building it would be on the sixth floor.”
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you heard that, had the Presidential car
carrying the President to the hospital passed by?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; it was just moments before that they had passed by.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you see the President or the Presidential party?
Mr. SAUNDERS. We could see the party. You could not define anyone
specifically in the car. There was what I now assume was an agent
perched on top of the convertible in the rear, hanging on for dear
life, and everybody else except the driver was crouched down in a pile,
so to speak, in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?
Mr. SAUNDERS. You could see no one. It was just a mass of people. The
only two people you could possibly distinguish were the rider on the
back seat of the convertible, with his foot in the seat sitting up in
the back hanging on, and the driver in the car. The car went by at a
very high rate of speed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after that--after the shots--did you observe what
you have just described?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, I heard no shots. From my point there was enough
traffic noise and general commotion that you couldn’t hear shots.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that the President had been shot?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, not more than 1 minute after the car had passed.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when the car passed, you were not aware
that there had been some shots?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was only then when you heard it over the radio, I
suppose, that you knew it?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, at that moment as the car went by, there were two,
possibly three, cars came by a few moments later--not necessarily in a
close group, but they came filtering through--each in a high rate of
speed.
Mr. HUBERT. How far were you away from the Presidential car?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, 25 feet--two lanes of traffic.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was your car parked?
Mr. SAUNDERS. On the center median of Stemmons Expressway at the
railroad overpass, approximately 100 yards west of the triple
underpass. There is a bisecting rail line there.
Mr. HUBERT. You were standing beside your car?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police motorcycle there?
Mr. SAUNDERS. There were several police motorcycles there--purportedly
to stop traffic on Stemmons as the Presidential motorcade came through.
Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from the Texas School Book Depository
Building?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, roughly 150 yards--100 to 150 yards.
Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the news over the radio, the police radio,
what did you do?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I got back in my car.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I was alone; yes. I was headed to the building, to my
office, at the time I stopped there.
Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take to go from the place you were
parked there to your office building?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I took the cloverleaf off of Stemmons, which was another
200 yards south and turned back up Commerce Street and went through
the triple underpass up to Young Street and turned--I mean--to Houston
Street, and turned right on Houston Street down to Young Street, and my
office is at that corner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car in the street?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I parked it in our parking stall at the rear of the
building.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked up to your office?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us now an estimate of the time it took you
from the time the Presidential car passed by you with everybody stooped
down in it until you got to your office on the second floor?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Approximately 10 minutes--I would estimate.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked whether that can be done in 10 minutes?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, yes; it can be done in much less than 10 minutes;
however, with the general confusion around the area, the traffic was
somewhat stacked up and after waiting for a couple of lights to get to
the office, which I had to pass by--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to your office, did you see Jack Ruby?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I went directly to my office and as I walked into the
office there were several salesmen in the office at the time, as is
normal for noon deadlines on Friday, and I walked over to my desk and
at that time Jack Ruby was standing beside my desk, or standing at my
desk. He was not seated there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you engage him in conversation in any way?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I spoke to him--this is a rather heated time of day any
Friday in our business, particularly in my own instance, and I was
dubious as to where we might stand as far as publication of the paper,
due to the events that had just transpired, and I spoke to Jack--I had
called on him previously. I had known him for 6 or 7 years, and I spoke
to him, and each of us in the office were conversing to one another,
and when I spoke to Jack he was very obviously shaken, and an ashen
color--just very pale--he nodded in reply, if he replied anything--it
was just in agreement, so to speak. We were making statements like
“Well, this is terrible,” and things like that, and he just agreed and
nodded, and with that I sat down at my desk and finished some work
which I was working on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him thereafter?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, he was wandering around in the office. After I
finished some immediate work--he was talking to various people around
the office and there was a small television at an adjoining desk and we
were over there watching it at the time--just generally milling around
in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. This was Mr. Jeffery’s office?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first came in, was Mr. Newnam there?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Newnam has previously drawn for us and identified
as Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of John Newnam, a chart showing the
general layout of the second floor, the rectangular upper right-hand
corner with No. 1 in it, being Mr. Jeffery’s desk, and this dot with
the circle being the television set.
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m giving you this as a bit of orientation--this squiggly
line is a glass partition?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course you see this is the promotion department?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. He has numbered here the various desks in the advertising
department?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at this and tell us which is your desk?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No. 5.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that desk that you spoke to Ruby, as you
indicated a while ago?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he with reference to No. 5?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Between 5 and 3--there are 4 desks there.
Mr. HUBERT. Your seat actually is also between 5 and 3, isn’t it?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he on the Young Street side of your chair or the
opposite side?
Mr. SAUNDERS. On the opposite side.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I’m going to mark a place--would you say he was
here--or would you show me where he was?
Mr. SAUNDERS. May I?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, indeed. Just mark an “X” to show where he was.
Mr. SAUNDERS [the witness so marked the exhibit].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will draw a little line out from here and say, “Ruby
position when Saunders saw him”; is that correct?
Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were on the Young Street side of Ruby, right?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we enter from this area here.
Mr. HUBERT. I see, you came from the other way?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right. This is nothing but a blank wall with windows on
this side--the front of the building.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark a place called “Y” and ask you if that’s
when you saw him?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. This is where you were--“Saunders’ position.” How long did
you talk to him--about?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just momentarily; just to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter have any further conversation with him?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you described him as being “shook up and ashen white,”
and of course by “ashen white” I think you probably mean pale?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other manifestations which led up to what is
really an intellectual conclusion of being “shook up”?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack is a very nervous individual and always has
been. Having called on him in previous years and having known him from
a business association over a period of approximately 6 years, you get
to know an individual and their reactions to a certain degree. He was
virtually speechless, which is quite unusual for Jack Ruby. He usually
has a lot to say and will talk to you at very great lengths.
Mr. HUBERT. That was immediately after you came in?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--this was upon my entering the office there--I went
directly to my desk and spoke to him, and he just had a very dazed
staring look on his face. To describe it further is a little bit hard
to do.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say anything?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not to my knowledge. Due to the fact that each of us
were speaking to one another in tones of remorse and he was certainly
replying just like any of the others, in agreement, that it was a
terrible event.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time, was it known that the President had been shot?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not known, I take it, that the President had died?
Mr. SAUNDERS. No. There was some--there were rumors around, possibly 30
or 45 minutes later, that he was dead, but it was not officially noted
possibly for another hour or possibly an hour and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps you had better go over some of the other
question marks you have--returning to the third paragraph?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in this sentence, “When Saunders first saw him,
Saunders felt that Ruby was probably more shook up than any of the
other people in the office at that time.” I don’t feel that he was
necessarily “more shook up” than anyone else, but he was very obviously
shaken by the events and the news of the President’s being shot.
Mr. HUBERT. You comment therefore is that this report indicating that
you had said to the FBI people that he was more shook up or probably
more shook up than any of the other people, is not an accurate
statement of what you expressed?
Mr. SAUNDERS. I feel not.
Mr. HUBERT. And the accurate statement is that he was shook up like
everybody else?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But not more so?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to the second page of Exhibit No. 1, I notice
that in the fifth line you have a question as to a sentence reading as
follows: “He never doubted Jack Ruby’s word at any time and Ruby never
turned out to be a bad credit risk but always paid off exactly as he
agreed.”
Mr. SAUNDERS. In our business association Jack Ruby’s club, the Vegas
Club, was not extended credit by the Dallas News, but it was what we
term a “cash with copy” account. He was advertising with us steadily,
as he always did thereafter. At the time I was calling on him, quite
often he would place advertising copy very close to deadlines over the
telephone, which was not convenient to run 10 miles out to his club
and try and get cash, where we had a 5-minute deadline or 10-minute
deadline. I, in my own workings at the paper quite often work with
accounts, and if they tell me “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” I’ll say “fine,”
and I’ll go ahead and put the ad in the paper and go get the money the
next day. This is what I would do.
I will not say I never doubted Jack Ruby’s word at any time. I think
that is a misquote. It is a fact that he did do what he told me he
would do on each instance, but any time in any business when you’re
dealing with someone who is on a credit basis where there is no credit
that has been established, you can’t help but take a tongue-in-cheek
attitude, and certainly the statement makes it sound like I am trying
to whitewash him, which I certainly do not mean to do.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s too broad--all you mean to say is that you would
extend him credit on the terms you just described?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--on a personal basis.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice in apparently the 9th or 10th lines you have
a question.
Mr. SAUNDERS. “Ruby never carried a gun on his person except on
occasions when Ruby would be carrying money.”
I have never seen Jack or known of him to be carrying a gun on his
person, but as stated further on, I have seen him counting money in his
club and place that money into a paper sack and at the time place a gun
that was in or on the desk, into that paper sack and walk out with it,
but never to be carrying a gun on his person, in such a manner as to be
concealed within a coat or pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your comment is that you don’t know whether
he ever carried a gun, except as you have just described?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; as I have just described it, that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second paragraph--you have a little question mark
there--“Ruby was known as being a woman chaser”--what about that?
Mr. SAUNDERS. “And to be particularly interested in the strippers that
worked for him.”
Jack had related to me on occasion from time to time about that
he might have dates with this stripper or that stripper, but not
necessarily more so than any other girl that he might come in contact
with. The point of being particularly interested in his strippers is
somewhat misleading.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think that the word “particularly”
doesn’t represent the thought that you meant to convey in the interview?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the next paragraph--there is a little question mark on
the left-hand margin and I ask you what you have in mind there?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, this was just conjecture on my part, just as any
other person following the various news medias that Jack Ruby had
previously to the shooting of Oswald been down to the Western Union
office and wired money to a girl in Houston, I believe it was, and then
it was reported that he had a large sum of money on his person at the
time of the shooting of Oswald. My conjecture was he might have had a
gun with him for those reasons, strictly from past experiences where I
knew he had a gun about his person or in a paper sack when he had extra
large sums of money with him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it’s conjecture on your part?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think the way the statement reads it indicates it is
conjecture?
Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, that’s fine, but I did want that brought out that
it is not a positive statement.