Mr. HUBERT. Your only contact with him was in the 15 minutes you have
talked about?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You and he were alone at that time during that 15 minutes?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; there were other people in the chapel, which is at
the front of the composing room where you sign your ticket and you sign
out.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people?
Mr. PRYOR. Let me see--I think there was a fellow by the name of
Griffin. I believe he was the one that walked out with me, and he’ll
shoot me for this, but he had walked up--we had washed up in the back
and had come up and I had made out my ticket and picked up my lunch
bucket and was ready to leave when Jack came in off of the elevator and
Mr. Griffin and I stopped and so then he went on down, and I couldn’t
recall whether he even spoke to Jack. Possibly he didn’t even know Jack
Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you introduce him?
Mr. PRYOR. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What is Mr. Griffin’s name--first name?
Mr. PRYOR. I don’t know--just Griffin is all I know him by.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work there?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you say he’ll hate you for this?
Mr. PRYOR. Because you’ll probably contact him and it’s----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you tell us that he did not speak to Ruby at all, is
that correct?
Mr. PRYOR. That--I couldn’t tell you, sir. The man to my knowledge
doesn’t know Jack or didn’t know Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, as you met Jack with this man Griffin,
you stayed behind and talked to Jack for about 15 minutes and Griffin
went on?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Griffin wait for you downstairs?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; he went on.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the contact between Ruby and Griffin
must have been a matter of seconds, is that correct?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir--if there was--which I don’t recall at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any indication that they knew each other?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the famous Weissman ad that appeared
in the Dallas Morning News the day the President came to town--a full
page ad?
Mr. PRYOR. I’m familiar with the ad, but I couldn’t tell you any of the
contents, because we had it up on our bulletin board.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to ask you simply is this: Whether or not Jack
Ruby mentioned to you anything concerning that ad during the 15 minutes
you spoke to him about 4 o’clock on November 23?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention the Birch Society?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with what the Birch Society is?
Mr. PRYOR. I’ve heard the name. I couldn’t tell you one thing about
their organization.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak with Jack Ruby about it nor he with you?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby seem to link Oswald with any group such as the
Weissman ad or the John Birch Society?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir--I mean--to my recollection there was never any
mention of those.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had been to station KLIF and
brought sandwiches there too?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that evening.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had secured a telephonic
interview of Henry Wade for Glenn Duncan of station KLIF?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general attitude towards the assassination of
President Kennedy?
Mr. PRYOR. He was real concerned. Now, this--I remember--he was very
much concerned with the fact that, I believe his words were, “Poor Mrs.
Kennedy--Jackie and the kids”--the fact that they had lost a husband
and father and it was definitely--he was emotional about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon what effect or did you have any
conversation with him about what effect the assassination might have
on business in general in Dallas and in particular, the convention
business, upon which his own business depended so heavily?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem concerned about how this event might affect his
livelihood?
Mr. PRYOR. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that he did seem concerned about the matter
from the standpoint of President Kennedy’s wife and children, was there
any other basis of concern that you could discern from his conversation
with you?
Mr. PRYOR. No. I’m--I’m trying to think as to what all took place
within the length of time that I talked with him, and he was basically,
emotionally upset over the thing.
Mr. HUBERT. What physical manifestation did he give of being
emotionally upset?
Mr. PRYOR. Shaking the newspaper--I guess is about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be angry or talk in a different way or look
in a different way or act in any different way than normal?
Mr. PRYOR. Not with any great degree that I could tell.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be excessively sorrowful about this?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes--like I say--he did seem real concerned over the fact
that the President had been killed, and I think all of us at that
time, as well as now--it was--there was a sorrow, and Jack being the
emotional type of person that he was, was possibly a little more
demonstrative of it. In other words, he would demonstrate and express
his emotions more than the average person, I feel.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought is then that his expression
of sorrow and so forth and his reaction was somewhat more than the
average, at least, as manifested?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment or associate in any way the question of the
Jewish race or faith in the assassination?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way to you that he thought that
because of the Weissman ad or for any other reason the people of the
Jewish race and faith might be blamed for the assassination, directly
or indirectly?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no conversation about Judaism or Jews at all?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when he took out the twistboard and
demonstrated it?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have it with him when you saw him?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; I don’t believe he did. All he had was the
newspaper.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when you left, he was still there?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t know how long he stayed?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you part with him, what was the general point of
departure, how did you leave things with him?
Mr. PRYOR. “I’ve got to get home, and I’ll see you around, Jack” or
something to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him again thereafter?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; until the time that I testified at his trial,
outside of seeing him on television.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any contact with him by telephone after
then?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think at one time you and he had had a little fisticuffs,
hadn’t you?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose any feelings about that had long since passed
away?
Mr. PRYOR. About 5 minutes after we had our misunderstanding, it was
all over. In fact, there was a grocery store down on the corner, and
not that I am or have in the past ever been a fighter or anything,
but we had had our set-to and I blacked his eye, and so then he went
over there and there was a wash-stand in the back of the Spur there,
and he was washing his face and I walked over to him and told him, I
said, “Jack, I’m sorry I’m fighting in your place here and working for
you like this, but don’t never call me a name like that because I just
don’t appreciate it”, and so he turned around and pop! He hit me right
in the eye, you see, and boy! The sparks just flew!
Mr. HUBERT. And you got to fighting again?
Mr. PRYOR. No; that was all, and so both of us had a big ole’ shiner,
and of course, the guys in the band were up on the bandstand and were
looking through the curtain. They heard the commotion and they were
just rolling.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were friendly thereafter?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was some 13 or 14 years ago, was it?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes; he goes down and buys two great big steaks and both of
us are walking around with these steaks on our eyes. I mean--that’s the
type of person, though, that Jack was.
Mr. HUBERT. He bought a steak for his own eye that you had given him
and one for your eye that he had given you?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes; and that is the emotional type of person that Jack--and
there has been numerous instances where I have seen him get real
excited over some incidental little thing and 2 minutes after whatever
created the excitement, he was back running around.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us his attitude toward the girls in his club? Did he
take any personal interest in them or was it strictly professional?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, now, on his personal life I couldn’t tell you. I
mean--I never associated with him to that extent, but I do know that he
treated all of the girls that worked for him, as far as I knew, with
fairness and also went out of his way to help them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he allow them to make dates out of the club that you
know of?
Mr. PRYOR. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he prohibit it?
Mr. PRYOR. Once again, I couldn’t say. That would come under his
business.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m asking you because you actually worked there
for a considerable period of time, and I wondered what you yourself
observed about it?
Mr. PRYOR. I do know that the girls would go with fellows, but it
seemed that they were their steadies and dates, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any regulation or rule of the house, as it
were, that no girl could date a man from the club?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; I wasn’t aware of that, if it did exist.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what his attitude toward the opposite sex was
generally?
Mr. PRYOR. He was impressed with them--I’ll say that. Whether he
was--well, I don’t know how to put it, but anyhow--he was engaged, I
know, at one time, and I know at the time I started working for him he
was engaged to a girl and why they didn’t get married, I don’t know,
but he had gone with her.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever observe any traits which you might classify as
homosexual in Jack Ruby?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; now, he was a peculiar duck, and he’s not the
type of person that--well, I consider myself a normal individual to a
degree, but he was a little rational----
Mr. HUBERT. He was a little “rational” or “irrational”? I didn’t catch
the word?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, let’s see how do I want to put it? Would it be
rational?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know. Apparently you have some doubt in your
mind as to the meaning of the word, and perhaps you had better use
another word. What did you have in mind? Perhaps you could use another
word to describe it? You said he was a peculiar duck and I gather from
that that he was a little different from other people?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, maybe it was because he was in that particular type of
business that he acted a little different towards women than guys in
the band, because musicians are notorious for their----
Mr. HUBERT. Interest in the girls at the club, is that what you mean?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir. I’m glad you phrased it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was a little different from that?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, like I say now--due to the fact that he was closer
associated with a number of girls that he acted that way or why it
was--I couldn’t tell you, but when you mentioned--did he have any
homosexual tendencies--he had never made any advances to me or to
anyone that I knew of.
Mr. HUBERT. You never observed anything that would indicate any such
thing as that at all?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you have not been an employee there for quite a
number of years; isn’t that right?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How many exactly--about 8 or 10, I take it?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But your friendship with him had continued throughout the
years?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; he had always treated me good. I mean--as far as a
friend, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. I know, but I mean after you left his employ as a musician
or an artist or entertainer, which I gather was around 1954 or
something like that?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you continue to contact him, was it just social?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I had gone down to the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. As a customer?
Mr. PRYOR. As a guest, because as a customer, I would pay, but as a
guest--whenever I came up, which was very rare, but at different times
I had gone up to his club just to catch the floor show and to observe
primarily the MC’s and listen to their routines. That was the type of
work that I had done.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the 10 years after you stopped
working for him, your connection and your contact with Ruby was on that
sort of basis, irregular meetings now and then?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I believe it was in 1960 on Christmas Day, he came
out to our house and he brought, I believe he had two dogs, dachshunds,
that he was quite fond of, and he came out and ate Christmas dinner,
although we had already finished dinner, he came out late, and my
wife fixed him a plate and he had turkey and all the trimmings, and
he stayed, oh, possibly 45 minutes and seemed to enjoy it, and his
dogs--we had a lot of yard and his dogs got out and run and it just
seemed to be relaxation for him, and we enjoyed having him, just as a
friend like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you want to say, Mr. Pryor?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then let me ask you this by was of closing. Of
course, neither you nor I met before I saw you tonight?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And there was no conversation between us except to
introduce ourselves. Otherwise, everything that has passed between us
has been recorded by this lady as far as you know, is that correct?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. I appreciate your
coming down and taking your evening hours with this.
Mr. PRYOR. Well, I don’t know whether I was any help to you or not, but
I appreciate it. For the life of me, I couldn’t bring myself to believe
that Jack could do something like that, and I still don’t believe that
he had any premeditated thought about it, that is, a circumstance that
allowed this thing to happen and it was just one of those things that’s
stranger to me than any fiction writer could possibly write.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I am certainly glad you came down.
Mr. PRYOR. All right, fine.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR WILLIAM WATHERWAX
The testimony of Arthur William Watherwax was taken at 6:55 p.m., on
June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert,
Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Arthur W. Watherwax.
Mr. Watherwax, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive
order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of
the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon
the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to
you, Mr. Watherwax, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine
what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent
facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and
his operations and his movements when you saw him and so forth.
I think you appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you
by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s
Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled
to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition,
but such rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness
may waive this 3-day notice if he so wishes, and I think that letter
addressed to you is dated June 22. When did you get it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. June 23.
Mr. HUBERT. Today is the 26th. Now, probably you have had the 3-day
written notice, but in any case, if it should be short by 1 day, since
the rules do provide that you can waive it, you said you are willing to
waive that notice?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you stand and raise your right hand so I may
administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;
so help you God?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Arthur William Watherwax.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. WATHERWAX. At 9302 Piper Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?
Mr. WATHERWAX. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Forty-two.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?
Mr. WATHERWAX. A printer.
Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. WATHERWAX. About 10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you employed before that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. At the Horton Bros, in Dallas, as a printer.
Mr. HUBERT. You’ve been in printing all your life, I take it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s my trade.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Dallas?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mr. WATHERWAX. About 10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I guess--maybe several years.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way did you come to know him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. His coming up to the composing room with his ads.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him in any other way?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him socially?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or as a friend?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are in the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that it’s customary for the customers who run
ads to consult with you as to the format?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; he’s the only customer I have ever seen up there.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did come and it was his custom to come up?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. It was his custom to come and talk to you or others about
the composition of his ad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He usually talked to the foreman but he usually mingled
with the men.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the foreman?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch was the foreman for that shift.
Mr. HUBERT. What shift are you talking about?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The 12 o’clock at night until 7:30 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he usually consulted with you?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he usually came up there, after his club was closed
usually around 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. He would consult with you about the ad which appeared in
the evening edition?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the following day.
Mr. HUBERT. When did it go to press?
Mr. WATHERWAX. It would go to press about 9 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. What’s the deadline?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I think it would be out on the streets about 11 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean what’s the deadline for changing the ad and so
forth?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, I think some time at night, but he kept wandering
in and his ad was so small.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to see him quite often?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Quite a bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having seen him on the morning after the
President was shot, that is to say, on the early morning of November 23?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Saturday morning?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning; that is correct?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty as usual?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was your 12 to 7:30 shift?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him before on that day, that is to say, on the
23d?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him on the 22d at all?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time prior to that that you had seen him
that you recall?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I don’t even recall, and I may have seen him and I may
not have even taken note of him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a distinct recollection of having seen him on
the night or the morning after the President was shot?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he there for?
Mr. WATHERWAX. To change his ad. He changed it to “The Carousel Club
will be closed for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday,” I think.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the ad had been placed or was it a
continuously running ad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; continuously--more or less.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come in person or did he telephone?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He came in person.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he telephone at all?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He frequently did, but he didn’t that day.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay with you?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He was up there, I would say, at least 30 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Talking with you or with others?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, it was with myself and others.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the others?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor--he was an old friend of his, and the foreman,
and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the foreman’s name?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he still there?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that Ruby first came, do you remember?
Mr. WATHERWAX. It was about 5 minutes after 4.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s quite a time that you have named. Therefore, I would
like you to state why you are able to fix it as closely as you do?
Mr. WATHERWAX. We eat lunch from 3:30 until 4, and right after lunch I
usually go back to the restroom and wash my hands, and just as I was
walking to the restroom, he came off of the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. So you are able to pinpoint the time because it was at the
very end of your lunch hour, which invariably, I take it, is from 3:30
to 4?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you fix it as shortly thereafter, or about 5 minutes
after?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does the elevator come from?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The first floor--up.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s open to the public?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but there are a couple of nightwatchmen down there
that check them in.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he stayed about 30 minutes, which would make it
somewhere after 4:30 when he left. Did he stay and talk with you all
that while or with others, including you?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He started talking to me and I believe Roy Pryor came up
and he talked to him also.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the primary purpose of his visit, as I understand, was
to change his ad, and he told you how to do it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He discussed it with me, you know, he was always asking
somebody’s opinion on something.
Mr. HUBERT. He discussed it with you as to the composition, you mean?
Mr. WATHERWAX. As to whether it would be timely.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean whether it would be a proper thing to do?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; appropriate--if I thought it would be a good idea.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was seeking your advice as well as
others as to whether it was a good idea to close the club, aside from
consulting you as to the composition of the ad, once that decision was
made?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in some doubt as to whether he would
close the club?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He said he was going to try and get the other owners to
join him and they would all close.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the decision, as I understand, was
ultimately made to close?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And therefore the ad was changed?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the assassination of the
President?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; he was pretty shaken up about it. I guess
everybody Was.
Mr. HUBERT. But did he seem to be more shaken up than the average
person?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I would say he was more excited about the interview
that he had just left evidently. He had been up at the police station
for an interview with Oswald and with Henry Wade.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you about that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression now that he was more excited about
the fact that he had been present at this interview than he was about
anything else?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving, particularly?