the one--I don’t mind saying--I think at first I said, “It was terrible
and I think it was an insult to our country” and then to the man--“it
was terrible for the man himself,” and that’s the statement I made,
that “we couldn’t do enough to the person that had done this sort of
thing.” I made that statement and he didn’t say a word back that even
indicated he was--to me he didn’t. I guess I made a more violent
statement than anything that was said because I really felt that way.
Mr. HUBERT. And your statement was to the effect that nothing would be
too bad for that person--something along those lines?
Mr. NORTON. Well, I meant by that--I just meant the extremes of the
law. I said, “Nobody has the right to take the life of another one” and
I meant it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion in what you said that somebody
ought to shoot Oswald?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any indication whatsoever as to why Ruby came
by?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he ever done that before at night?
Mr. NORTON. Not at that time; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that he didn’t mention to you the Earl Warren
poster?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t discuss Oswald at all?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t discuss whether there were any groups behind
Oswald or conspiracy or anything of that sort?
Mr. NORTON. Not one word. That surprised me because I’ve seen on a
couple occasions Jack get very exasperated with his help, you know,
down at his place, but he was more calm than I was about it. That
is--in the conversation I had with him--he was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, is there anything else you want to comment
upon?
Mr. NORTON. Nothing that I know of other than this is what I explained
to the officer in my club. I said, “Actually, I guess there’s very
little I can do in helping, but I feel like you ought to know he was
there,” which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Just so the record may be complete on it, we have had no
conversations, have we, since I first met you a few moments ago other
than what has been recorded in this room?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed.
Mr. NORTON. All right.
(At this time the witness, Norton, left the deposing room and shortly
thereafter returned to such room and the proceedings continued as
follows:)
Mr. HUBERT. This is Robert Norton and your deposition was finished a
few moments ago and you had left the room and actually had proceeded
downstairs, but you thought of something that you thought you should
tell us and so you have come back up again, and now you want to state
something more.
You understand, of course, that this second proceeding here is being
conducted under the same terms and conditions as the first?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you are under the same oath that you were on the
first?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us, please, what it is that you’ve
thought about that you want to add?
Mr. NORTON. Well, I started to leave and I remembered that--well, I
thought about it up here because we were discussing what was said in my
place of business, but my manager and I in the office 2 or 3 days after
it happened--I don’t remember exactly--discussed the fact that Jack
Ruby’s sister was just out of the hospital and all of this happening
and everything, we sent to her a sympathy card.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a sympathy card concerning her illness or concerning
Jack’s trouble, or what?
Mr. NORTON. It was, as I remember it, it was just a general card. I
didn’t purchase the card. My manager did.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a printed card?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; it was a printed card.
Mr. HUBERT. That was sent about how many days after the shooting of
Oswald?
Mr. NORTON. I would say 2 or 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. And then did you have anything else you wished to say?
Mr. NORTON. And then 2 or 3 days later I received a letter or a
note--it was in a letter form, and it was addressed to Anice and Bob,
that’s my manager’s name, and she opened it and it was from Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. From the jail?
Mr. NORTON. From the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. What did it say?
Mr. NORTON. Simply---“thank you for your”--something like “your
concern”--I guess she took it to him. It wasn’t sent to him, we didn’t
send it to him, but I surmised that she just told him about it or
something and he sent this little note back and wished us luck.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have that note?
Mr. NORTON. Yes--I started to throw it away and Anice told me to keep
it.
Mr. HUBERT. I would suggest that you hold it a bit. It may well be that
the Commission or the Federal Bureau of Investigation will want to look
at it, so I would not destroy it if I were you.
I’m glad you came back and told us about this.
Mr. NORTON. Well, I just don’t want to be connected with this in any
way other than I’m here to help and that’s the reason I wanted to come
back up here and tell about that, because I hadn’t mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s right. You didn’t want to be put in the position of
having come here and omitted to say something that does bear upon your
relationship with Jack Ruby, but which you had not said before?
Mr. NORTON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that’s fine. Thank you, sir.
Mr. NORTON. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF ROY A. PRYOR
The testimony of Roy A. Pryor was taken at 7:50 p.m., on June 26, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Roy A. Pryor.
Mr. Pryor, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive
order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Pryor, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about
Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.
I think you appeared here tonight by virtue of a letter written to you
by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President’s Commission,
asking you to come here, and I think that letter is dated the 22d of
June, is it not? When did you receive it?
Mr. PRYOR. Day before yesterday, which would be the 24th.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness
is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his
deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness may waive that
notice if he sees fit to do so, and in the event it should turn out
that you have not had the 3-day notice, are you willing to waive it and
let your deposition be taken now?
Mr. PRYOR. That’s perfectly all right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You are willing to have your deposition taken?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?
Mr. PRYOR. Roy Auburn Pryor [spelling] A-u-b-u-r-n.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Mr. PRYOR. I’m 41.
Mr. HUBERT. Your address?
Mr. PRYOR. 8544 Foxwood Lane. The address on the letter was to 2716
Mohave Drive, and since then I have moved.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state that address again, please?
Mr. PRYOR. 8544 Foxwood Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Pryor?
Mr. PRYOR. I work as a printer in the composing room of the Dallas
Times Herald.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. PRYOR. Approximately 3½ years.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to your association with the
Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. PRYOR. It has been varied. I mean--I have done radio and television
promotional advertising and have owned a small printshop of my own. I
have worked as a salesman from selling Kirby vacuum cleaners to--and I
have then worked as an emcee and a musician, and in comedy.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known Jack Ruby?
Mr. PRYOR. Since about 1950, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with his operation of
nightclubs?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time you were in the entertainment business?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you when you first came into the room a
document consisting of two pages, which I mark for identification
as follows, in the right-hand margin: “Dallas, Tex., June 26, 1964.
Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Roy Pryor” and I have signed my name
under it, and on the second page I have placed my initials in the
lower right-hand corner. This document purports to be a report of an
interview of you by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin on December 9, 1963.
Now, have you read this document which I have marked as Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you find that it correctly states your recollection of
the interview that was had of you by Agents Wilkinson and Hardin?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And there are no errors in it, I take it?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir--I mean, the exact dates may vary to some degree. I
don’t recall exactly the basis of the entire thing is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it has been customary for Mr. Ruby to
come up to the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald frequently to
consult in regard to his ads?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that he’s one of the few customers who does do so?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir. Jack--when I knew him--now, his condition
evidently has changed considerably due to the information that I get
from the newspapers, has always been an impulsive sort of a person and
it was the idea of being able to present his ad personally, and he
liked to associate with people. So, consequently I feel that that was
possibly the reason that he would come up to the composing room, and he
is one of the very few that I can name that has ever come up there,
but he was fairly consistent in his coming to the composing room. Now,
what he talked about--he would carry on his conversation with the
foreman or the person in charge at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say he came down there once a week or more often
or less often?
Mr. PRYOR. Now, I didn’t see him that often, but I am under the
impression that he was there possibly two or three times a week--I
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. What shift do you work at the newspaper there?
Mr. PRYOR. In the evening, sir, from 7:30 until 3. At the time,
though----
Mr. HUBERT. At what time--you mean in November 1963?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; in November of 1963, the shift, the evening shift
started at 6:30 and got off at 2.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there one shift that began or some employees who
began work at midnight and worked until 7:30?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on that shift?
Mr. PRYOR. Art Watherwax, now, he is the lobster--that is the name of
the shift--the lobster shift is the midnight shift, and ours, or the
one that I worked and still do is the evening shift, and like I say, at
that time the shift started at 6:30 and ended at 2 for a normal 7-hour
shift. Now, it’s from 7:30 until 3. As in the statement, though, to the
FBI, I had worked overtime that particular evening.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s get to that. I think you state in your statement
to the FBI, Exhibit No. 1, that you saw Ruby in the composing room of
the Times Herald on the morning of the 23d at about 4 o’clock?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that would have been Saturday morning?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The day after President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what was the last occasion prior to this
time on the 23d that you saw Ruby?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes; now--once again--I can’t recall the exact date. It was
either a Tuesday or a Wednesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Of that week?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes; of the week before.
Mr. HUBERT. Of the same week?
Mr. PRYOR. Of the week that President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was either 2 days before or 3 days?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I don’t recall now exactly. The place that I saw
him, though, was in the reception room at radio station KLIF, and at
that time I was doing some promotional advertising for the station.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of the day or night was it?
Mr. PRYOR. As best I can remember, it was about 2 o’clock in the
afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you see him with?
Mr. PRYOR. A little fellow--now, he introduced me, but I forgot his
name, but it wasn’t Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know Oswald, of course, did you?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you say it wasn’t Oswald, you mean that you are
identifying him and are making that statement from pictures of him you
have seen?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was someone connected with the station, is that it?
Mr. PRYOR. No; I don’t know what connection there was between him and
Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. He was with Ruby?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he introduce you to the man?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the name “Larry” ring a bell with you?
Mr. PRYOR. I couldn’t tell you, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Lavern Crafard?
Mr. PRYOR. No; I can vaguely identify him--it seemed like he had brown
wavy hair, and he was shorter than I am and he would be about 5′7″, I’d
say.
Mr. HUBERT. And what age about?
Mr. PRYOR. In his early thirties I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?
Mr. PRYOR. To the best of my recollection he was in a business suit.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that they were together?
Mr. PRYOR. Jack introduced me and we talked in the lobby of radio
station KLIF and then we walked down and stood in front of the station.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean--outside?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. On the street?
Mr. PRYOR. Or on the sidewalk, and Lorie--he’s the station manager for
KLIF--Al Lorie.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Mr. PRYOR. Al [spelling] L-o-r-i-e, I believe it is. I had been in
talking with Al and Jack Ruby was sitting in the copyreader’s office--I
know those guys but I can’t recall their names--he was in the office of
the man that takes care of the copy.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he finished his business at the time you met him?
Mr. PRYOR. When I walked in to see Mr. Lorie, the door was open into
Bob’s office and Jack was sitting there and I just waved at him and
went on in to see Al, and so when I came out Jack was sitting there.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still sitting at the same place?
Mr. PRYOR. No; he came out.
Mr. HUBERT. So, apparently while you were conducting your business, he
was conducting his?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you both left together?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he saw then? There?
Mr. PRYOR. The copywriter he was talking to--his name is Bob Clayton.
Mr. HUBERT. Bob Clayton?
Mr. PRYOR. Right; I should have remembered it, but I’m one of the worst
on names.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left him on the street?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the next time you saw him was on the morning of the 23d?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, normally your shift would have been over at 2 o’clock?
Mr. PRYOR. At 2 o’clock; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You state in your interview with the FBI, Exhibit No. 1,
that you saw him at about 4 o’clock?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you fix that time?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, I had 2 hours overtime, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you worked 2 hours overtime that day?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were about to leave?
Mr. PRYOR. I had already signed my work ticket and was preparing to
leave the place.
Mr. HUBERT. So it is that fact which enables you to fix the time that
you saw Ruby at 4 o’clock?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he just coming in then?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was precisely 2 hours after your regular time had
finished?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So there can be no doubt about it being 4 o’clock?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?
Mr. PRYOR. That--I don’t know, sir, because I left after talking with
him for approximately 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to you first or who else did he speak to?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes; I was the only one, I presume, that he knew that was
at the chapel board, which is in the front of the chapel board, and he
just stopped me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about business?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir--just--he was excited and just his usual self. I
mean, whenever something out of the ordinary happened, he would become
excitable.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you noticed that through the years that you have known
him?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us some of the physical manifestations which
indicated to you that he was excited?
Mr. PRYOR. One is that he had a newspaper with him, a Times Herald
paper. It was the evening of Friday--the paper, and stated that he had
gotten the scoop on his competitors. There were two things that he
brought out, and the primary thing, I believe, that he stressed, was
the fact that in memorium to President Kennedy, that he had had them
change his ad real quick; that his two clubs, the Carousel Club down on
Commerce Street and the Vegas Club, which was out on Maple or Oaklawn,
he had closed those two for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had gotten that announcement into the
Friday edition of the Times Herald, whereas, his competitors had not
done so?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that they were running ads as it were announcing their
shows?
Mr. PRYOR. Their shows; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And his announcement announced the closing because of the
death of President Kennedy?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak of any other thing then?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I mean--like I say--the fact that it was in
memorium, a memorial to President Kennedy, was primary, but secondary
then was the fact that he had scooped his competitors, and that was the
word that he used “scooped.”
Mr. HUBERT. In the sense that he had taken this action and gotten his
ad before anybody else had done so?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; he felt that that was something that everybody
should have done.
Mr. HUBERT. He seemed to take some personal gratification in it?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention having seen Oswald that night, in the course
of that night?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about that?
Mr. PRYOR. How he was allowed into the pressroom, we didn’t go into,
but that he by knowing the newspapermen and the officers, police
officers, he was allowed to go in where the lineup was. I presume
that’s where it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that to you?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he said to you that it was because of his
acquaintance and association with the police officers and the news
people that he did get into this room?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was rather swept along and
forced into this room or that he got there because he wanted to be
there and used his associations as a means of getting there?
Mr. PRYOR. It reverts back, I believe, to the fact that Jack was real
impulsive and he happened to be there and they happened to be going in
and that seemed like the thing to do. I mean--knowing Jack, if there
was any kind of excitement or activity and he had a tendency to big
shot.
Mr. HUBERT. To play up to big shots, you mean?
Mr. PRYOR. Well--to----
Mr. HUBERT. To pretend to be a big shot or to try to be a big shot?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why he was in the police station at all?
Mr. PRYOR. It seems like that he had bought some sandwiches and coffee
for the officers; I believe that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that what he told you?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; that he had bought some sandwiches and coffee, and
now, who they went to, I don’t know, but that was what he said.
Mr. HUBERT. This you know from your own knowledge--from him?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t read this in the paper?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say concerning Oswald?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, that he was allowed to enter the room where Oswald was
and that he did get close enough to touch him, and the one thing that
I didn’t think of it at the time--but due to the chain of events that
took place, the one thing that he said, was, “He’s a little weasel of a
guy.” I mean--that’s his exact words that Jack used.
Mr. HUBERT. When he said that, did he have any particular type of
expression or emotion?
Mr. PRYOR. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, did his voice carry some suggestion of
hatred or revulsion?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; to that degree, although I don’t for the life
of me believe that Jack had any premeditation of murdering Oswald. I
mean--you have to----
Mr. HUBERT. You’re talking about the time that you are speaking of,
that is to say, on the morning of November 23?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had made any comment himself
in the course of that meeting?
Mr. PRYOR. Only later on--he had mentioned to the District Attorney
Henry Wade, who was talking on the telephone to someone, and Mr.
Wade had made a statement that Oswald was associated with a Cuban
organization and that the organization that he had mentioned was
anti-Castro and Jack corrected him and told him it was the organization
that was pro-Castro.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack told that to you?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; and that Mr. Wade seemed to be appreciative of
that fact, and that he said--Jack’s words were, “You see, I’m in good
with the district attorney” or something to that effect. I mean, he was
trying to impress me with the fact that he was acquainted with Henry
Wade.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he had been able to correct him?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I mean--to know Jack is to realize why he would
say things like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently, in correcting Mr. Wade, he pointed out to Mr.
Wade that Oswald’s committee or group or something was not anti-Castro
but pro-Castro, is that so?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I believe that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way how he knew what Oswald’s
political feelings with respect to the Cuban problem were?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, I think that he had gathered that through the news
media, either newspaper, television, radio or--not that he was
associated or connected in any way, but I do feel that that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. What I’m trying to get at is this: That Ruby apparently in
correcting Mr. Wade, associated Oswald with the pro-Castro group rather
than with the anti-Castro group, as Mr. Wade had apparently mistakenly
done?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it merely that he was correcting the terminology of Mr.
Wade or did you gather that he himself had some knowledge of Oswald’s
political feelings?
Mr. PRYOR. No; my own personal opinion is that Jack was correcting Mr.
Wade through what he had read or heard.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Mr. Wade had used the wrong label for the
organization that Wade was talking about and that Jack corrected him
and said that that organization is called another thing?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; and that was as far as I could determine, that’s
the only thing that Jack meant, which was common knowledge then through
the news media.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that he said to you on that night or
at anytime for that matter, that indicated that he knew of Oswald’s
political feelings and thoughts?
Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; outside of possibly what he had learned through the
police or through other news media, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from his remark that it was Ruby’s opinion
that Oswald was a pro-Castro individual rather than either a neutral or
an anti-Castro individual?
Mr. PRYOR. Well, just from the comment that he had made in relation to
the correction of Mr. Wade, that would be the only time.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that Mr. Wade had simply used the wrong
label for the pro-Castro group?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was simply correcting him as to labels, is that
correct?
Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any telephone calls made that night between Ruby
and the composing room or you, that you know of?