the news of the Tippit shooting was known to you and to Jack prior to
Jack’s leaving the office?
Mr. NEWNAM. There was knowledge that--whether the man’s name was
known--but it was known that an officer had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think Jack knew that prior to leaving?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that fixes that in your mind?
Mr. NEWNAM. No; except the fact that I think he heard it and other
people who were there at the time probably heard it at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your thought is that his time of departure,
which was contemporaneous with the payment of some money over to you
was at approximately 1:30?
Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And it could have been before the announcement of the
President’s death, or after?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; because I don’t recall exactly what time that
announcement came over.
Mr. HUBERT. He did mention to you that he was going to close his clubs?
Mr. NEWNAM. I think he was--it had been discussed. He didn’t say
specifically that he was--I don’t recall that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was considering it in any case?
Mr. NEWNAM. I’m sure he was.
Mr. HUBERT. And whatever he said to you indicated that he was
considering closing the club?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; but he didn’t tell me at the time, or we could
have gone ahead and made the changes then.
Mr. HUBERT. But the changes were in fact not made by you?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of what period of time which
elapsed between 12:40, when you first came in, and the telephone
conversation by Ruby with his sister?
Mr. NEWNAM. It would be be just a guess--15 minutes--20
minutes--perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you put it the other way--how long before he left was
this call between Ruby and his sister?
Mr. NEWNAM. I would approximate that this call must have been made
around 1 o’clock. Now, to nail it down exactly how I approximate
that--I’m just not real sure.
Mr. HUBERT. There’s no record kept of a call of that sort, is there?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; it was after--of course, it was after the 12 noon
deadline, which our deadline is for either getting ads in the paper
or taking them out. This is normal procedure, however, since what
happened--naturally we disregarded deadlines and were trying to take
care of the needs of those advertisers--whatever they would like to do.
Mr. HUBERT. In your judgment, it was about 15 or 20 minutes after you
came in, which was at 12:40?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the time of the phone call?
Mr. NEWNAM. I would guess so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who placed the Weissman ad or did you have any
dealings with the placement of the Weissman ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. I had no dealings at all with the placement of the ad, nor
do I know the gentleman who placed it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that is all. Let me ask you
this--we have had a few words of conversation prior to the beginning of
this deposition, principally in connection with your drawing of this
map or chart, Exhibit No. 4. Has there been any conversation between
us that has not been substantially covered in the deposition since it
began?
Mr. NEWNAM. There was one thing which might be pertinent which I
think--the question has been brought up about being able to see the
Texas School Book Depository from my desk.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was not part of the conversation here this
morning.
Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Since you have brought it up, I would like to have your
comments on that point?
Mr. NEWNAM. And the Building--that portion of the Building cannot be
seen from my desk as such.
Mr. HUBERT. Can it be seen from Mr. Jeffery’s office?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; it can be seen from Mr. Jeffery’s desk and Mr.
Saunders’ desk.
Mr. HUBERT. Or any place near the intersection of Young and Houston
Streets, I take it?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well, outside of course you can see it. All of the
desks--the reason you can’t see it from my desk would be this post
right here.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s how far away?
Mr. NEWNAM. The Building?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; how far from the second floor to the Texas Depository
Building by way of line of sight?
Mr. NEWNAM. Of course, my line of sight estimate would be--I’d have to
go by blocks. There’s the Plaza, and then there’s the block the hotel
is in, and the courthouse--two courthouses--5 blocks.
Mr. HUBERT. About 5 blocks?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other comment you wish to make?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t believe so, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. You’ve been most cooperative and
helpful. This is something we didn’t have at all.
Mr. NEWNAM. Thank you. I hope that takes care of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I hope so, and that is all.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. NORTON
The testimony of Robert L. Norton was taken at 11:05 a.m., on June 27,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Robert L. Norton.
Mr. Norton, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 28, 1963, and the joint resolution
of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the
President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order
and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death
of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Norton, the nature
of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the
death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the
general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements
and associates and so forth. I think you appeared here today by virtue
of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to come here; isn’t
that correct?
Mr. NORTON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that letter?
Mr. NORTON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us when you received it?
Mr. NORTON. Let’s see--it must have been Wednesday, I believe. I’m not
for sure. It was this week--right in the middle of the week.
Mr. HUBERT. The rules of the Commission provide that every witness
is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their
deposition, but those rules also provide that you may waive that
requirement. I ask you now that in the event you have not been given
the full 3-days’ notice, are you willing to waive that right in order
to testify now?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you stand and raise your right hand?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. State your name for the record, please?
Mr. NORTON. Robert L. Norton.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence address, Mr. Norton?
Mr. NORTON. 3414 Manana [spelling] M-a-n-a-n-a.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?
Mr. NORTON. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr. NORTON. I’m in the entertainment business.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that business?
Mr. NORTON. About 7 years now.
Mr. HUBERT. What business did you have prior to that time?
Mr. NORTON. I was a salesman for Colgate-Palmolive Co.
Mr. HUBERT. What aspect of the entertainment business have you been in?
Mr. NORTON. I have been primarily in, for the last 7 years, a private
club business, which is a rather new business here in Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had one or more clubs?
Mr. NORTON. Well, I have one and I’m associated with two others.
Mr. HUBERT. What others have you had, say, in the last 7 years? I think
you are the entire owner or associated in the ownership of the Pago
Club?
Mr. NORTON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You are the entire owner?
Mr. NORTON. Well, actually, I own the equipment and fixtures and due to
our State liquor laws, it has been--it has to be leased to the club,
and the club actually is owned by its members.
Mr. HUBERT. You are the operating manager?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; I am the operating manager.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s located at 4611 Cole Street, I believe?
Mr. NORTON. No; that’s my office, sir. The Pago Club is located at 2822
McKinney.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the Pago Club?
Mr. NORTON. Oh, that’s been about 5 years since it was started.
Mr. HUBERT. Back last November, that is to say, November 1963, you had
the same connection with the Pago Club as you have now and have had?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other clubs then?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which ones?
Mr. NORTON. I was associated with the Red Garter Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else is associated with you in the operation of the Red
Garter Club?
Mr. NORTON. Mr. Charley Kiser operates the Red Garter.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that [spelling] K-a-i-s-e-r?
Mr. NORTON (spelling). No; K-i-s-e-r is the way he spells it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. NORTON. That’s 3412 Kings Road.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a similar operation?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s a similar operation to the Pago Club?
Mr. NORTON. It’s similar but a different motif.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have a financial interest in it?
Mr. NORTON. I own the fixtures.
Mr. HUBERT. He operates the club?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m not interested in your portion or what you get out of
it, but you do have some financial benefit from it?
Mr. NORTON. Yes: I do have.
Mr. HUBERT. Any other clubs at that time?
Mr. NORTON. At that time--the Keynote Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. NORTON. It’s on Cole--4527.
Mr. HUBERT (spelling). C-o-l-e?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And who manages that?
Mr. NORTON. Louis Byrum.
Mr. HUBERT (spelling). B-y-r-u-m?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any others?
Mr. NORTON. No; since then I am associated with a new one that’s just
been opened, and this was just 2 weeks ago.
Mr. HUBERT. This address at 4611 Cole which you say is your office, is
that a residence?
Mr. NORTON. No; that’s a building. That’s an office building.
Mr. HUBERT. You have your own offices there rather than in your club,
is that correct?
Mr. NORTON. Right; well, it’s a joint office where all of us meet and
have room to do our necessary bookwork.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know Jack Ruby, of course, don’t you?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; I have known him.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. NORTON. Well, I’ve known him ever since I have been in the
business. My first location was on Lemmon and he had this Vegas Club
down on Oaklawn.
Mr. HUBERT. They were close together?
Mr. NORTON. Well, it’s about a mile, I guess, 2 miles at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. In a sense you were competitors, I suppose?
Mr. NORTON. Well, in a sense, although he ran a different type of
business than I did. He had a dance place there on Oak Lawn and my
place was--his was open to the public and mine was closed to membership.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a member of your club?
Mr. NORTON. No; I had shown him the courtesy as an operator when he
would drop in, such as we do, you know, to be a guest.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s mutual, I suppose, it’s reciprocal?
Mr. NORTON. It’s done--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to show you a report of an interview of you by
FBI Agent Joe Abernathy, dated November 26, 1963, which I have marked
for identification on the right-hand margin as follows: “Dallas, Texas,
June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 in the deposition of Robert Norton,” and I
have signed my name below it. It consists of about a third of one page.
I would like you to read that and tell me afterwards whether or not
you recollect the interview and whether that’s a fair report of that
interview.
Mr. NORTON (read instrument referred to). This is what I said and I
also called Tuesday and reported to the FBI the fact that I had seen
him at 12 o’clock and I asked him if they wanted me to come down and
the man on the phone said I could just give him a statement over the
phone. This was right after the President was buried.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this report----
Mr. NORTON. This is the second report that I made. I phoned in.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you ever have a person-to-person interview?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; this gentleman here was in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on Tuesday, November 26, and you had telephoned
the information to the FBI previous to that?
Mr. NORTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And then did they come out on the same day and interview
you?
Mr. NORTON. No; it was later. I wasn’t personally interviewed until
later. I don’t remember just how long but it was sometime after I
phoned in.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did phone in on Tuesday?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you phone in?
Mr. NORTON. Well, I just thought I should.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you thought that you had some information
about his movements?
Mr. NORTON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that therefore you should report it and you did do so?
Mr. NORTON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know Ruby?
Mr. NORTON. Not well at all. I knew him strictly in a business manner
and association. Occasionally, like I say, he would drop over to the
place. We had a club association started in Dallas and I was president
of that and I knew a number of different club operators and knew him
through this means. I on occasion have been in his place, but I didn’t
frequent it. It wasn’t that I disapproved but I just didn’t care for
his operation, which I never had any reason to go there other than just
to visit once in a while to say “Hello”.
Mr. HUBERT. You’ve known him, you say, about 8 or 10 years?
Mr. NORTON. No; I’ve known him about 5. I was in the business about 2
years before I ever met him.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no social relationship between you?
Mr. NORTON. None whatsoever. I have some friends who went to his club.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t visit with him in his home?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you saw him three or four times a year or
more or less?
Mr. NORTON. Possibly after I met him--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it would be either at his club or he dropped in at your
club?
Mr. NORTON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or one of the meetings of the association?
Mr. NORTON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you say in this statement which has been identified
as Exhibit No. 1 that Ruby came in about midnight on the 23d. Now, was
that Saturday?
Mr. NORTON. It was a Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it about midnight?
Mr. NORTON. It was about midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?
Mr. NORTON. How do I fix the time?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. NORTON. I was talking with some other members of the club and I was
on the other side of the room and my band had just taken their last
break, their last 15-minute break, and that’s the only reason I was
able really to fix the time. You see, we’re open until 1 o’clock on
Saturday. They have 15-minute breaks.
Mr. HUBERT. That was from 12 to 12:15?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they observe that fairly carefully?
Mr. NORTON. Oh, yes; very definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean; would you say the break would always occur at that
time?
Mr. NORTON. Well, it could vary 5 minutes either way but not much more
than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Not much more than that, you say?
Mr. NORTON. No; my customers are in a habit of knowing that they have a
15-minute break on the hour and then back for an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s customary throughout the industry?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. They play for an hour?
Mr. NORTON. Forty-five minutes on and 15 minutes off.
Mr. HUBERT. And this was on the last break?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he came in right after the break?
Mr. NORTON. Well, I don’t know exactly when. I walked by his table and
didn’t even know he was in the house. Like I do--I always try to notice
who’s in my place and I looked backward as I walked by and there he
was, just sitting there by himself.
Mr. HUBERT. The band had just broken up for its break so that you fix
it at 12 o’clock?
Mr. NORTON. That’s about--it’s in that vicinity.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible he could have been in there for a
considerable time prior to that?
Mr. NORTON. No; I don’t think so. I can’t say for sure. My manager was
at the door and saw him and greeted him when he came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. NORTON. Anice Byrum.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you gave the full name awhile ago?
Mr. NORTON. Well, that was her husband’s name. She is manager of my
club and he has this other place.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name?
Mr. NORTON. Anice Byrum.
Mr. HUBERT. And she’s the wife of whom?
Mr. NORTON. She’s the wife of the manager of the Keynote.
Mr. HUBERT. And his name is Louis?
Mr. NORTON. His name is Louis Byrum.
Mr. HUBERT. And where do they live?
Mr. NORTON. They live on Singing Hills Street in Oak Cliff.
Mr. HUBERT. She saw him come in?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Has she ever spoken to you about what time it was?
Mr. NORTON. No--of course, with the shock of it all Sunday and we
discussed it the first part of the week in the office, and all I
remember her saying was he hadn’t been there any time at all, because I
didn’t see him come in, and I asked her, I said, “How long had he been
in there?”
Mr. HUBERT. What did she say?
Mr. NORTON. She said it hadn’t been long. He had had time to finish a
Coca-Cola because when I saw him and said “Hello” and turned around and
sat down, he had just finished a coke and I was having a drink and I
ordered him one, another coke, and he drank another coke and he drank
that and he left.
Mr. HUBERT. So, from the time you saw him until the time he left, how
much time passed?
Mr. NORTON. I’d say 15 or 20 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were sitting at the table with him at that time?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I would assume that the orchestra began to play then before
he left?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general nature of the conversation?
Mr. NORTON. Well, like I say--when I walked by, I hadn’t seen him in a
good while.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had it been since you had seen him?
Mr. NORTON. He was in the club one afternoon about, I’d say 4 to 6
weeks prior to that, with a man from Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. They were just in for a drink?
Mr. NORTON. Well, the man was. I never saw Jack take a drink.
Mr. HUBERT. They weren’t there on business, were they?
Mr. NORTON. No. You see, often times people in this business, that’s
the way I always do, they just drop by and say “Hello” and see what the
other person is doing in the way of business. That’s the only way I
took it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who this man was from Fort Worth?
Mr. NORTON. No; but that conversation--they were discussing a business
card idea, and it was some kind of plastic business, because he had a
transparent business card with him.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know the man was from Fort Worth?
Mr. NORTON. They said he was from Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he introduced you but you don’t remember
his name?
Mr. NORTON. I sure don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that he was from Fort Worth?
Mr. NORTON. That’s as I understand it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, coming back to the 23d, which really went over
into the 24th, didn’t it, because midnight came right at that point,
you had a conversation of about 15 or 20 minutes with him seated at the
table?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you talk about generally, do you know?
Mr. NORTON. Well, when I saw him sitting there, I just said, “Hello,
Jack, I didn’t know you were in the house”. I remember naturally just
thinking about it, after what he did, and so I sat down a minute with
him and I asked him what he had been doing, and I don’t remember
whether I said, which it says in this, that I said--that I asked him
if he was closed. I don’t think I asked him that because we discussed
it later, just before he left, because I made the comment that I don’t
know whether I should open or not, and when I made that statement,
that’s when he told me he was closed, and I know that’s the way it was.
In other words, we simply discussed--there was no discussion--this
association had just been finalized. We closed it down because we
couldn’t get the people to be here for the meetings and I discussed
that with him, what was done at a final meeting, but I wasn’t at
the final meeting and there was a few dollars involved that were
distributed among the members to eliminate it, that there had been
accumulated, you know, a collection of dues, and then he talked to
me about how fortunate I was to have the business that I had, and he
thought I ran a nice club--a nice place, and it was just like I told
the officer on the phone and also the man who interviewed me--I’m the
one that made mention of the assassination, just before he left. He
didn’t say a word to me about it, and even when I said it, he just
didn’t have much to say. He didn’t express his opinion like I did mine,
and he said he was tired and he was going home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate at anytime where he had been?
Mr. NORTON. No, and I didn’t ask him. I mean--there wasn’t any reason
to.
Mr. HUBERT. No, I understand that, but I thought he might have dropped
some word that would indicate where he had been?
Mr. NORTON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate where he was going when he left?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; he said he was tired and he was going home.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was about 12:15 or 12:20?
Mr. NORTON. Somewhere around there.
Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?
Mr. NORTON. He was by himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him drive off or did he just get up and walk
out of the club?
Mr. NORTON. No; when he left, I just continued to talk to my customers.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you said that there was very little
conversation about the assassination altogether, and what little there
was came from you?
Mr. NORTON. I mentioned it; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He made no comment about the assassination at all?
Mr. NORTON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate any disapproval of the fact that your club
was open?
Mr. NORTON. No, and he just didn’t--like I say--I didn’t know until
after I had discussed the fact that--I didn’t know whether it was
proper or improper to open but everybody had been so shocked, you know,
that I went ahead and opened, but I mentioned that I was certainly
going to close Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated to you that he was closed?
Mr. NORTON. Yes; he had been closed since it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t really ask him, so that this report is
incorrect when it says that you asked him. He told you after you
expressed your concern that his clubs were closed?
Mr. NORTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When he came in or at anytime during the conversation did
he ask you for anyone or inquire about anyone?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did he ask you about a Breck Wall?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Breck Wall?
Mr. NORTON. I know the name but I don’t know--I can’t place it--I say I
know the name, I’ve heard the name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you or make any inquiry about a man named George
Senator?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you or make any inquiry about a man named Joe
Peterson?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of those persons--Breck Wall, George Senator or Joe
Peterson frequent the Pago Club?
Mr. NORTON. To my knowledge; no, but I do--for some reason recognize
the name “Breck Wall” and I’ve heard of the name “Joe Peterson”.
Mr. HUBERT. It may help you if I tell you that they were entertainers
at the Adolphus Hotel during this period, possibly that’s the reason?
Mr. NORTON. It could be, but there are an awful lot of names that
come through my place of business and those names--it could be that I
remember them from that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make any comment on what effect the assassination
of President Kennedy might have on business generally in Dallas and
particularly the nightclub business?
Mr. NORTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As I say, and I repeat it for the sake of emphasis, he
mentioned or he said nothing about the assassination at all?
Mr. NORTON. To the best of my memory--that’s the part--that’s what I
discussed with people that I know about it. I said, “He didn’t even
voice any contempt,” which I did for what had been done.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t concur in your view or express any concurrence?