for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1, Deposition of John Newnam,” and I have signed it, and it
purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on
December 4, 1963. I think you’ve read that and I ask you if that is a
correct report of the interview with you?
Mr. NEWNAM. The report as I read it is all correct--the second line of
paragraph 2 which states, “A short time after he, Newnam, sat down,”
I would like to add “sat down at Mr. Byron Bates’ desk,” which is
adjacent to my desk.
Mr. HUBERT. What again is Mr. Bates’ desk, referring to the chart
identified as Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. NEWNAM. That would be desk No. 22.
Mr. HUBERT. What change do you want to make--that you sat down----
Mr. NEWNAM. At Mr. Bates’ desk, which would indicate I sat down next to
my desk where Jack was sitting.
Mr. HUBERT. Your desk was 23?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections?
Mr. NEWNAM. I think that’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you had mentioned something about Sanger-Harris?
Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, yes; in paragraph 1 reference is made to where I
witnessed the parade on November 22--“at Austin and Main Streets by
Sanger-Harris Brothers.” It should read “Austin and Main Streets by
Sanger-Harris Company.”
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you want to delete the word “Brothers” and
add the word “Company”?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, Exhibit No. 1 is correct; is that right?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite your attention to a document which I have
identified as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No.
2, Deposition of John Newnam,” and I have signed my name below that
inscription, and it purports to be an interview of you by Mr. Jack
Peden on December 10, 1963, and I think you’ve read it, and I ask you
if that’s a correct report of the interview?
Mr. NEWNAM. It is, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Finally, I have handed to you previously a document
purporting to be a transcription of your testimony during the Ruby
trial, which runs from numbered pages 28 through 46, and for the
purpose of identification, I have marked page 28 as follows: “Dallas,
Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, Deposition of John Newnam,” and
I have signed my name below that and I have placed my initials in the
lower right-hand corner of all the subsequent pages. I think you have
read this document I have identified as Exhibit No. 3, have you not?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. According to your recollection, is that a correct
transcription of the questions asked you and of the answers given by
you?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think these exhibits previously identified, indicate
that you have known Jack Ruby for some considerable period of time
prior to November 22?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And in what way did you know him?
Mr. NEWNAM. I knew him as a person--as a customer of the Dallas News,
in placing advertising which I handled for him.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you placed his advertising for two nightclubs he
had, the Vegas and the Carousel?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he always come to you with his ads?
Mr. NEWNAM. Not always because I wasn’t in the office, but he would if
I was there. Now, some of the other man would handle these things, in
the event the man who handles the account is not present.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would handle his advertising?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How often would you see him for that purpose?
Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, I would say two or three times a week average,
depending on this--it would be of course dependent upon how much
advertising he planned to run.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on November 22, 1963?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. NEWNAM. At the Dallas News advertising department.
Mr. HUBERT. The second floor?
Mr. NEWNAM. The second floor.
Mr. HUBERT. In the building on the corner of Houston and Young Streets?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what time it was you first saw Ruby on
that day?
Mr. NEWNAM. It was approximately 12:40.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time, sir?
Mr. NEWNAM. I fix that time this way: I watched the motorcade at Main
and Austin. After the motorcade had passed, naturally, I proceeded to
the office to take care of a few matters which had to be taken care of.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to the office prior to going to see the parade?
Mr. NEWNAM. I had been there early in the morning; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you leave to go to see the parade?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I left on our regular business--I left the office--I
imagine around 9:15 or 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby was not there then?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then about your fixing of the time at which you
got back to the second floor of the building.
Mr. NEWNAM. I knew the motorcade was coming to Dallas and through
downtown, and since my area covers downtown, I was rather anxious to
get as much done as quickly as possible to get back to the office, and
after taking care of the business which was normal to take care of, I
walked back to the--I was walking back to the office because it was
just about as quick to walk as to try to wait for a shopper’s bus,
because the crowd was gathering.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw the parade, how far were you from the
Dallas Morning News office?
Mr. NEWNAM. I was about--well, walking distance, I would say about 7 or
8 blocks.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk back?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Approximately what time do you think you saw the President
pass?
Mr. NEWNAM. I would say approximately 12--it must have been about 12:25
or possibly 12:26.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your position on Austin and Main and proceed
to walk back to the Dallas Morning News Building, immediately after the
President himself had passed in the motorcade?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you walked the 7 blocks or so?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was Ruby on the second floor of the
Dallas Morning News?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing or sitting or what was he doing?
Mr. NEWNAM. He was sitting at my desk.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say--No. 23 on Exhibit No. 4, is that correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time when you first saw him, that the
President had been shot?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?
Mr. NEWNAM. He was looking at a paper; I believe it was that morning’s
issue of the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, was he engaged in drawing up the draft of an ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. This--he had already completed--this he had finished, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that, did he hand it to you when he came in?
Mr. NEWNAM. I had--just--someone had reserved the space and he had
fixed it, prepared the ad and put it in the box, which he knew what to
do--the procedure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with him immediately upon
your arrival?
Mr. NEWNAM. Spoke.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it unusual----
Mr. NEWNAM. I just spoke in the usual manner--I said, “Hi Jack” and he
spoke back, and that was about all.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it unusual that he should be occupying your desk?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a telephone at your desk?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a telephone at desk 22, the desk of Mr. Bates, or
does that telephone serve both desks?
Mr. NEWNAM. Both desks--it serves both desks--yes--extension 386.
Mr. HUBERT. You have previously designated or stated the names of
persons who occupied the various desks which are numbered on Exhibit
No. 4 and I would like to ask you now whether at the time you saw Jack
Ruby, to wit, 12:40 on November 22, 1963--whether all those people were
seated at their desk at that time?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; they were not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of who was there and who
wasn’t?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well, this is of course very vague. In our office people
are coming and going and each tending to take care of his own routine
matters and you just get to where you pay little attention to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, was Mr. Campbell there?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; Mr. Campbell was not there--he was out of the
office.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Jeffery in his office, which has been already
identified by you on chart 4?
Mr. NEWNAM. At that time I didn’t know whether he was or not. There
were a number of salesmen in. I think Mr. Allen, Mr. Rea, and Mr.
Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they weren’t all there?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that only a quarter of them were there?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, this was the lunch hour, and----
Mr. HUBERT. And the Presidential parade, too?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right, and a number of them were over watching the
motorcade.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Miss Georgia Mayor or Mrs. Georgia Mayor there, or do
you remember?
Mr. NEWNAM. I believe she was--yes, she was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you describe just how you first obtained
information that the President had been shot or that there had been any
shooting or any rumors or extraordinary events along those lines. How
did the news come to you, and where were you?
Mr. NEWNAM. I was sitting at Mr. Bates’ desk.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s No. 22?
Mr. NEWNAM. That’s No. 22.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s of Exhibit No. 4.
Mr. NEWNAM. When Mr. Coley, with several other members of the staff, I
believe Mr. Mulkey was with him, and I don’t recall any others--came
back and said on entering the office that the President had been
shot--that there had been a shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. NEWNAM. This--I would place it--approximately 12:45.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are judging it in this way--that it was
about 5 minutes after you had come in?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby sitting next to you still?
Mr. NEWNAM. He was.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether he also heard that news?
Mr. NEWNAM. He did.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he did?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well, Mr. Coley just passed down the aisle and made the
remark as he entered and of course all those sitting there heard it. I
assume that Jack heard the same statement I did.
Mr. HUBERT. But other than your assumption that he must have heard it
because it was said--in a way, I take it, that everybody within earshot
could have heard it?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was there any reaction of a particular nature that you
recall by Jack Ruby immediately upon hearing it?
Mr. NEWNAM. Of course, the reaction would be of disbelief--I
think--stunned disbelief.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about his attitude or your own?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I think--of course, I am assuming that he felt that
way--that was the look he had on his face. Of course, this was my
belief also.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; I don’t recall he said anything.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he seemed to have what you have described
as a shocked look?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that, do you know?
Mr. NEWNAM. After that--of course--confusion reigned--as was given in
the testimony at the trial. The news spread quickly. My wife called me
to ask me if I knew anything about it and, of course, it hadn’t been
verified at the time. She had heard what he had heard. People were
calling the school where she worked to find out, or this, that, and the
other. Advertisers began to call to cancel advertising they had placed
for the weekend--over Saturday and Sunday and possibly Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack Ruby still sitting next to you during the events
you are now describing?
Mr. NEWNAM. During the events I am now describing, Jack was at my desk
part of the time and other times we were over at Mr. Jeffery’s office
watching what news the television had of the events.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk over to Mr. Jeffery’s office?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. With Ruby?
Mr. NEWNAM. I didn’t walk with him particularly. We just went--when we
found out the television was on--we just--with others--we went to the
office.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ruby knew that advertisers were calling
in canceling their ads?
Mr. NEWNAM. He did; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. NEWNAM. He so expressed himself.
Mr. HUBERT. He so expressed himself on what?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well, sir, he was standing right next to me when I accepted
several calls of this nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Standing next to you--where?
Mr. NEWNAM. The one time he was standing next to me as I was accepting
a call in front of desks 3 and 4, the desks of our secretaries. There
is an inner-office switchboard which accepts calls for the department,
and I was there and I just accepted one call there, and Jack was with
me at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate that he was aware that an
advertiser was canceling?
Mr. NEWNAM. He knew they were; yes, sir. This was just in conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state that your conversation with
others that he could hear was such that it would be understood by
anybody that you were accepting the cancellations?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time had he told you anything about canceling his
own ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. Not at that time; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you walk over with him to Mr. Jeffery’s office
where the television set was?
Mr. NEWNAM. We made several trips over there. As a matter of fact,
he was over there at times when I was doing some work, and it was
just a matter of back and forth. In other words, the promotion people
were listening and everybody was trying to figure out what was going
on--there was general confusion all over the office.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t suppose that everybody was in Mr. Jeffery’s office,
but that some were looking through the glass?
Mr. NEWNAM. There were a number inside and most of them outside
because the offices--the nature of the office--its size--would
prohibit everyone getting inside.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s attitude throughout this period?
Mr. NEWNAM. His attitude was that of most everyone else--I would say of
everyone else--the attitude of disbelief, an emotional upset, I would
say.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying?
Mr. NEWNAM. I never noticed he was crying; no, sir. This was brought
out when I was questioned before, but I don’t recall that he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you recall--I think you stated in here--that he
called up his sister, and had you listen to her--where did that take
place?
Mr. NEWNAM. This took place at my desk.
Mr. HUBERT. He called her from your desk?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe him call her?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know her, did you?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he come to put you on the phone? Give us the
details about that episode.
Mr. NEWNAM. I was using the telephone on the desk behind my desk, these
are telephones servicing desks 20 and 21.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir--trying to contact an account of mine regarding an
ad running the next day. Jack used the telephone at my desk to call his
sister, and when I had completed my call, he just motioned to me--we
were standing almost side-by-side, and he motioned to me to listen and
held the phone up to my ear.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to the lady then?
Mr. NEWNAM. I didn’t say a word then; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?
Mr. NEWNAM. She was--I recall one particular statement she made, she
says, “My God, what do they want?” And--she sounded very upset. Of
course, I couldn’t tell whether she was crying or not, but I would
assume she was, and I didn’t say a word to her, and I just handed the
phone back to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything to her?
Mr. NEWNAM. I believe he was trying to calm her down, but I don’t
recall any specific conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether that conversation with his sister
took place before you went to look at the TV or after, or can you place
the time in any way?
Mr. NEWNAM. This was after--I believe we had made--I had made one trip
over there to just check what news there was, and I believe this was
after. Now, the exact time--what time--I don’t believe I could place it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Ruby was there when the
announcement of the President’s death came over the air?
Mr. NEWNAM. I believe he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his reaction was at that time?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall--whether I even was talking to him or even
saw him when that came over the air.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he was there when the announcement of
the shooting of Tippit came over the air by radio or television?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I believe he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment or did he have any observable
reaction as to that news?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall any statement to that effect. I don’t recall
even where he was when that news came over the television.
Mr. HUBERT. But you think he was there?
Mr. NEWNAM. I think he was; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?
Mr. NEWNAM. The exact time--I couldn’t place specifically--I would say
between--it was 1:30 or thereafter.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that, sir?
Mr. NEWNAM. I fix that from the standpoint that he paid me some money
for some ads he had run a few days before or a day before and he didn’t
have enough money to pay me for the ad he was running the next day, so
I just made the remark “I’ll see you next week,” which was routine in
fact, and he said--he just nodded and said, “yes,” and he walked on out
the door. I place that time also by the fact that----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, before you leave that--that paying of the money
doesn’t of itself, as I understand it, fix the time unless you relate
it to something else?
Mr. NEWNAM. No; I’m relating it to you because that was the last
transaction we had. That was the last time I saw Jack. Immediately
thereafter there were a number of us who were getting together to try
to figure out where we might go to have lunch and it was before 2
o’clock because our cafeteria closes ordinarily at 2 o’clock, and we
finally wound up going to the cafeteria eating a light lunch. This is
how I place the time--approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the last dealing you had with Ruby was the payment of
the money?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In point of time you think that was approximately 20
minutes prior to the 2 o’clock shutdown of the cafeteria?
Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the cafeteria it was about
to close?
Mr. NEWNAM. Really, I don’t know whether they were going to close
that day or not. I’ll be real frank with you--it ordinarily does at 2
o’clock; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you place the time of his departure relative to the
time that you first heard that the President was dead?
Mr. NEWNAM. That might be a little difficult to do.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s approach it this way: Is it your recollection
that he was present when the announcement came that the President was
dead?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I’m sure he was in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that fixes it in your mind that way, so
that you are able to say “I’m sure he was there”?
Mr. NEWNAM. The only thing that would fix it would be the fact that
the announcement was made, but I don’t even recall what time the
announcement was made now. I may be assuming that he was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any reaction of his to the fact of the
President’s death? You see, there was first the announcement of the
shooting?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then there was the Tippit shooting and then ultimately
of course came the announcement of the President’s death. Is there
any recollection in your mind as to his reaction to that ultimate
announcement of the death?
Mr. NEWNAM. No specific; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. After he paid you the money, did you immediately leave with
your friends to go and find something to eat?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How much time elapsed between the time he paid you the
money and you left?
Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, I would say some 20 or 30 minutes, I don’t know exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s get at it this way: How much time elapsed, do
you think, between the time of the announcement of the President’s
death and the time you left to go to eat?
Mr. NEWNAM. Well. I don’t recall really the specific time the
announcement was made. This leaves me a little bit undecided as to the
specific amount of time that would elapse in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when you heard of the President’s death?
Mr. NEWNAM. I was still in the department.
Mr. HUBERT. But were you at your desk?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall that. We were moving from desk to desk--the
boss had me handling cancellations or whatever happened to come
up--we were still trying to take care of the business and do what was
necessary. I do not recall exactly where I was when that announcement
came out.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it be possible that Ruby left as early as, say 1
o’clock or 1:15?
Mr. NEWNAM. I wouldn’t think so--I wouldn’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll get at it at still another way: You first came
in of course at 12:40?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is a rather definite point--now, when Jack paid you
the money, which was the last time you saw him--is another point--how
much time do you think there would be between those two points, to wit,
12:40 and the time he paid you the money?
Mr. NEWNAM. I’m--approximately about 50 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. That would mean he left approximately at 1:30?
Mr. NEWNAM. Around that; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told by him--had he told you then that he was
canceling his ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you that at all, then, did he?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; I don’t recall that he told me he was canceling
it. I believe it was discussed. He had mentioned something about he
might, but he didn’t cancel the ad; it was changed.
Mr. HUBERT. Changed really to state he was going to be closed?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether he would close
the club unless he knew the President was dead?
Mr. NEWNAM. I think the action that he observed of what was going on
with other people, motivated Jack to close his club.
Mr. HUBERT. Or to make the announcement?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He did say he was going to close his club before he left?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t know that he specifically said that--I don’t recall
it--he might have.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time that he spoke to his sister and you also
listened to her, had the announcement of the President’s death been
made yet?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t believe it had. We knew that the shooting had
happened. We knew that he had been shot. I don’t believe that we knew
specifically that he was dead. I don’t recall the exact time that we
learned this information.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby talk to you about the Weissman ad--you’re familiar
with that ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation with Ruby about that--what
he said to you, or did he say anything?
Mr. NEWNAM. I recall there was some brief conversation about it
relative to the fact that he didn’t particularly think it was in good
taste or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did that conversation take place, do you recall? Was
it on November 22? Or, could it have been earlier?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; it had to be the 22d--no one knew about it before
then. It must have been right after I came to the office and I was
standing at Mr. Bates’ desk.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he remonstrating with you or what was his general
attitude about it?
Mr. NEWNAM. I think he just was discussing it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he complaining that the paper had taken the ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall that he particularly complained about it. He
was concerned about the nature of the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he express his concern?
Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, he was--of course, he had read the ad the night
before. It had come out on the street in the early edition, but he was
specifically--as to what he said by words, I don’t recall. It’s just a
matter that he was commenting on it. I remember that. All the time I
was doing some work trying to get some of the stuff out of the way.
Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the announcement of the shooting at all?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t remember the exact words, but whatever they
were, he addressed himself to the Weissman ad and your recollection is
that whatever he said, showed some concern, as you put it?
Mr. NEWNAM. Some concern--yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a concern favorable to the content or impact of the
Weissman ad or the converse?
Mr. NEWNAM. I would say the converse.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was opposed to the Weissman ad?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that concern was as to “Why should such an adv. appear
to be taken by the newspapers”?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; this would be the general concern.