mentioned how terrible it was about President Kennedy being
assassinated and he said he felt like it was a good thing that we had
changed our station format, which we had done. We had changed our news
format and weren’t playing any rock and roll at the station, but were
playing album music, soft listening music, and I don’t know whether I
mentioned it or not--I can’t remember whether I mentioned it or not but
he looked rather pale to me as he was talking to me and he kept looking
at the floor. Well, I went on back to the control room and Jack went
back to the newsroom and talked to the newsman, and then I would say 5
or 6 minutes later came back to the control room where I was by myself
and he stood there and talked to me and basically told me what was on
your paper right there. He told me once again--he rementioned how sorry
he was that all this had happened and he gave me a little card that I
think I still have, an advertisement for his club.
Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel Club?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; the Carousel Club, and we just sat around and talked
in general and he mentioned that he was going to close his club down
for the weekend--I can’t remember his exact words--I think it was more
correct on this because it was closer to the time he said it and I gave
it to the FBI man. He said, “I’m going to close my club down this
weekend. I’d rather lose 12 or 15,000--” Oh, that’s a discrepancy--I
think he said 12 or 1500 right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. MCCURDY. It should be 12 or 1500, and he said that.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s a discrepancy then in the second paragraph of page 2
of Exhibit No. 1 where it says “12 to 15,000” it should be “12 to 1500”?
Mr. MCCURDY. Right. He said, “I’d rather lose 12 or 1500 this weekend
by closing down than I had not to be able to live with myself.” You
can certainly imagine what a shock this was to me when he went out on
Sunday and shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you a photostat of a card. Is that the Carousel
Club’s card?
Mr. MCCURDY. As a matter of fact, I have one right here.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the one?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You are showing me one that you’re taking out of your
wallet?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; and here’s another one Jack had given me earlier, a
picture of one of the strippers on it.
Mr. HUBERT. These two cards are different from the one I’m showing you?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The one I’m showing you is a part of the exhibit one page
3, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of David L. Johnston. Was that the
type of card he gave you?
Mr. MCCURDY. No; this is the one he gave me--right here. This one also,
of course, is his. Now, this doesn’t have any advertising for Jack,
but this is the background on one of his girls down there that he had.
Also, I have no idea why he did it, but I have one of the bottles that
Jack left up there and it was a very unusual brand of soda pop that I
had taken to my apartment. I took it over to the apartment and just
threw it in the ice box because it was one of them that was left over,
and I had heard earlier that they found some cold drink bottles up in
the window where Oswald was and I was going to say if there was any
kind of connection as far as this type of cold drink was concerned, I
would certainly be able to identify the other bottle, if it was like
this one.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time when Ruby first called by telephone, I
think you received the call, didn’t you?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes. Oh, my gosh, it would have to be after midnight and
I’m sure it was before 1 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you pick those two times?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, it was my recollection that I had just come on
the air. I went on at midnight at that time and Russ Knight, the
Weird Beard, was still there, and he gets off at midnight, and he was
sticking around the station and I placed the time that I got the call
the first time, I would say, about 12:20.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there two calls or one?
Mr. MCCURDY. There was only one to my recollection that Jack made.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the hot line?
Mr. MCCURDY. No; it was on what we term the jock line. It’s in my paper
there. The number has since been changed. It’s changed periodically.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you transfer him over to Glenn Duncan?
Mr. MCCURDY. No; I didn’t. As far as I know; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you give him the number, the hot line number?
Mr. MCCURDY. To my knowledge; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You were aware that he did subsequently call Glenn? And I
think you introduced him to Glenn; didn’t you?
Mr. MCCURDY. As far as I know; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it was Mr. Moore?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, now, Russ was a closer friend to Jack than I was.
Mr. HUBERT. We have fixed then the time that he called and spoke to
you--what was that conversation about?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, Jack said he had some sandwiches and some cold
drinks that he would like to bring up to the station, that he knew we
were working hard, and under a lot of strain, and he wanted to bring us
some refreshment up, and so he brought some up. Oh, my gosh, corn beef
on rye and we had some cold drinks--Dr. Black’s cold drink. The reason
I remember this--they are surrounded with or had gold foil on them and
he said you could only get them in New York and that they were the best
cold drinks in the world, and they were in my estimation--the best cold
drinks I’ve ever had, but as I said, I felt later I should have turned
one of these bottles over to the FBI. I didn’t think about it until
just here recently, about turning it over to the FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. Why was that?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, because it had been said they found some cold drink
bottles where Oswald supposedly shot President Kennedy, and I was going
to say--for Heaven’s sake, if they found the same kind as these cold
drink bottles, I see no reason why they should, but if they did, it
would certainly establish some kind of a link.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were unique kinds of bottles?
Mr. MCCURDY. They were--they certainly were.
Mr. HUBERT. Unique in shape or what?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, they were unique in shape.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the shape?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, it was more on the order of a small Pepsi Cola
bottle but the label was what was different. It had gold foil wrapped
around it up at the top. It was apparently a very expensive cold
drink--I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. It was called Dr. Black?
Mr. MCCURDY. Dr. Black’s cold drinks.
Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that if the bottles found near the
position where Oswald was supposed to be, were the same type of bottle,
that would be significant, is that it?
Mr. MCCURDY. It certainly would; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That, of course, is noted and will be followed up. About
how long afterward did Ruby actually appear at the station?
Mr. MCCURDY. Oh, I hate to say anything contradictory to what’s in the
statement there, but I really can’t remember what I said. I just read
over it a little bit ago, though.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you want to look it over again?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; let’s see. “I advised that some 15 or 20 minutes
later I ran downstairs between a record”--I started to putting on a
record apparently or some album record, one of our albums there and I
ran downstairs and opened the front door and Jack was waiting there
with sandwiches and drinks and he was waiting there and apparently had
been waiting a few minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Russ Moore with him then at that time?
Mr. MCCURDY. I can’t remember. Now, I get the feeling that Russ went
down with me to open the door, and the more I think about it, I’m not
exactly sure that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that was about 20 minutes after the phone call?
Mr. MCCURDY. Right. I would say sometime before 1 o’clock, around a
quarter to 1.
Mr. HUBERT. You testified a minute ago, I think, that you thought the
phone call was about 12:20, so this would have been 12:40 or 12:45?
Mr. MCCURDY. Right; correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?
Mr. MCCURDY. To my knowledge Jack stayed, maybe an hour or maybe
longer. After our conversation ended, I didn’t really take note of
whether Jack was still in there or not--he was kind of a hanger-on.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him but just these few minutes?
Mr. MCCURDY. The two times I talked to him--once in the hall and in the
control room.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether he was there when Glenn Duncan went
on his 2 o’clock news broadcast?
Mr. MCCURDY. I can’t remember--I really can’t remember. I’ll tell
you--there was a diversionary action going on and I was paying
attention to this Pappas, what’s his name, that was from WNEW. Of
course, all of us in markets the size of Dallas are always interested
in larger markets like New York and Chicago, and I was kind of watching
him, and so it threw part of my attention off of Jack on to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what a thing called an Alpawna [spelling]
A-l-p-a-w-n-a box is?
Mr. MCCURDY. A what?
Mr. HUBERT. An Alpawna box?
Mr. MCCURDY. Alpawna box--no; I don’t. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t either.
Mr. MCCURDY. Apparently, if it was of any size, he didn’t have it on
him, because as I testified to the FBI agent, he didn’t look like he
had a gun on him of any kind. Of course, he may have.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how he was dressed?
Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; he had on to my recollection a dark charcoal business
suit with a matching dark tie and with dark shoes and a dark hat with a
little funny band on it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about an overcoat?
Mr. MCCURDY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He had no topcoat on?
Mr. MCCURDY. No topcoat on.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the famous Weissman ad?
Mr. MCCURDY. Weissman ad?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; which appeared in the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. MCCURDY. Oh, yes; wait a minute, what did it say?
Mr. HUBERT. It asked some questions of Mr. Kennedy and so forth.
Mr. MCCURDY. It was an advertisement for a local establishment?
Mr. HUBERT. No; it was an advertisement generally critical of the
President. It was a full-page ad which appeared on the day of the
President’s visit and at the very bottom of it it was signed by Mr.
Bernard Weissman.
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, I don’t remember that. I do remember a local grocery
store chain--I remember what it was--it was a grocery store chain or
something--it was in, I think, the Morning News the next morning--they
failed to pull out, after President Kennedy was killed; Saturday
morning this came out and it was a picture of a rocking chair and the
back of a man and it was, of course, President Kennedy and the little
girl was standing there saying something cute and something funny and
it would have been very funny had it not been that day, but it was just
an oversight and a tragedy.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, coming back to the Weissman ad, you had no
conversation with Ruby about any such thing?
Mr. MCCURDY. Oh, no; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby in the course of his conversation with you or with
anyone else you heard advert to the Jewish question or Judaism in any
way at all?
Mr. MCCURDY. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him make any comments with respect to a
pamphlet called “Heroism”?
Mr. MCCURDY. No; now, I heard this--the reason this sticks in my mind
is because it was by H. L. Hunt, isn’t it, or a Life Line reprint from
H. L. Hunt?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. MCCURDY. Russ Knight, the Weird Beard, mentioned it to me later on
that Jack had given him this. He didn’t give me a copy of it, but he
apparently passed it to Russ in a very militant manner, apparently,
from what Russ had to say.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did not converse with you about it at all?
Mr. MCCURDY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s general attitude and state of mind or state
of emotions that night?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, I hesitate to use any adjectives for fear of it
causing it to be misleading.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, it’s a matter of semantics, but once we
get an adjective perhaps we can then use it as a point of departure by
describing physical action.
Mr. MCCURDY. Right; I would say, just glancing back, that Jack’s
overall mood and appearance that night was--looking at it now strictly
in the light of his actions on Sunday, it would appear to me that he
was in a, well--to draw a bad analogy--a state of a dormant volcano.
He was very dormant, quiet--he looked like he was mulling over many
things, which I’m sure he was and all of us were at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem abnormally sad?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, more so than myself. Of course, I was very shook up
about this. He did seem more so than I felt like I would have expressed
it.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest it?
Mr. MCCURDY. By being sullen, quiet, looking at the floor, glancing far
away into space for no apparent reason. This is what I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statements that now in retrospect you can
classify as being related to his subsequent actions?
Mr. MCCURDY. None.
Mr. HUBERT. No threats?
Mr. MCCURDY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or comments such as “Somebody ought to do something about
this”?
Mr. MCCURDY. Well, he said he was doing something about it by closing
down his club and missing his money. Now, this is something I just
thought of looking back in retrospect, as you said. By him mentioning
to me that he was closing down his club, apparently he was trying to
give me a feeling that he was making a tremendous sacrifice, monetary
sacrifice in order to hold up or support national pride of some kind of
his own. Looking at it in the light of what he did on Sunday, I can see
that apparently he wanted to draw some of my attention to him and that
he was making a tremendous sacrifice.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression then?
Mr. MCCURDY. No; I didn’t--I didn’t. I must say that truthfully--it’s
only in retrospect. It wasn’t that outstanding at that particular time.
Mr. HUBERT. I believe that’s all, sir. Have you anything else that you
wish to add?
Mr. MCCURDY. Nothing else.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t believe there has been any conversation
between us that has not become a part of the record; is that correct?
We have not discussed anything off the record?
Mr. MCCURDY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And everything that has passed between us has become a part
of this record?
Mr. MCCURDY. Other than our meeting at the door. We said nothing other
than, “Hello, and glad to meet you.”
Mr. HUBERT. All right; very good, and thank you very much.
Mr. MCCURDY. All right; thank you.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN WILKINS NEWNAM
The testimony of John Wilkins Newnam was taken at 10:51 a.m., on June
26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. John Newnam.
Mr. Newnam, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress,
No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in
conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have
been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you
that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain,
evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey
Oswald and the participation of Jack Ruby therein. Particularly as
to you, Mr. Newnam, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine
what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent
facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and
his operations and associates and so forth, and his movements on the
pertinent days. Now, I believe you have appeared here today by virtue
of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the
staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present; is that
correct, sir?
Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter, Mr. Newnam?
Mr. NEWNAM. I received this letter Wednesday, June 24.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of the letter or the mail stamp, if it has
a mail stamp, and if it doesn’t have a mail stamp, what is the date of
the letter?
Mr. NEWNAM. The letter was written--the letter is dated June 22, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to having your deposition taken
today?
Mr. NEWNAM. None whatsoever; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me state to you that under the rules of the Commission
all witnesses have a right to have a 3-day written notice, but the
rules also provide that a witness may waive that notice, and I take it
from your previous answer that you do waive that?
Mr. NEWNAM. I do; yes; absolutely.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise so that I may administer the oath, please? Do
you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. NEWNAM. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, sir?
Mr. NEWNAM. John Wilkins Newnam.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?
Mr. NEWNAM. 3124 Kingston.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. NEWNAM. Forty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. NEWNAM. Advertising salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?
Mr. NEWNAM. Dallas Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. NEWNAM. With the News totally?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. NEWNAM. Since 1936--January, I believe, of 1936--that’s 1946–56,
that’s about 28 years now.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that’s about the only job you’ve held in your
life?
Mr. NEWNAM. That’s the only job I’ve had--yes, sir; and in the various
departments.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any official capacity as an officer or
something of that sort?
Mr. NEWNAM. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Newnam, I want to show you a document which I have
marked for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964,
Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of John Newnam.” I have signed my name below
that language and I ask you if you have not signed your name below my
name?
Mr. NEWNAM. I have, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Newnam, this purports to be a chart of the second floor
of the building occupied by the Dallas Morning News and particularly
occupied by the advertising and promotion departments of that
newspaper; is that correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. This is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you draw this yourself?
Mr. NEWNAM. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to take this document and first of
all, holding it in an upright position so that your signature and mine
are upright as we look at it, and Young Street is on the right and
Houston Street is on the top, I ask you, you see the word “Promotion”
in a number of squares which are unnumbered, and I ask you what that
means?
Mr. NEWNAM. The number of squares indicate desks in the promotion
department.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have not numbered those?
Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in a square at the intersection of Houston
and Young Streets, that is to say, in the upper right-hand corner of
this chart, Exhibit No. 4, there is apparently an office; is that
correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I see a squigly line at the bottom of that and the words,
“Clear glass partition.” Does that mean that you can see through that?
Mr. NEWNAM. You can; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two lines to the left of that square which
apparently are intended to indicate a door, is that right?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there actually a door there in the sense that there is a
door to be closed?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s simply an opening; is that correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice a square with the No. 1 written in it and ask
you what that is?
Mr. NEWNAM. That’s the desk of Mr. Dick Jeffery.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. NEWNAM. Promotion manager of the Dallas News.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the square in which the desk No. 1 is shown the office
of Mr. Jeffery?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice a dot with a circle around it and then a line
leading out, and then you have to turn the paper upside down and
there’s the words “TV set,” was there a TV set there at that position
on November 22, 1963?
Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way was the set facing--that is to say, the screen?
Mr. NEWNAM. Facing the door.
Mr. HUBERT. The door and the glass partition, is that correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice that there are a number of other squares on
the Houston Street side. What are they?
Mr. NEWNAM. Other offices of officers of the advertising and promotion
department.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, I notice that immediately to the left of what you’ve
described as the promotion department, there are some posts and files;
correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a square with the No. 2 in it; what is that?
Mr. NEWNAM. No. 2 is the desk of Mr. Jim Black, the assistant retail
advertising manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Immediately below No. 2 there are a number of desks, or
apparently squares, having each of them two numbers in them. Will you
explain what that means?
Mr. NEWNAM. That means that we have two desks side by side and each is
occupied by an individual.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have not shown on this map the way the occupant
of the desk faces, but is it true that all the occupants face Houston
Street?
Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; just the opposite. They face away from Houston
Street.
Mr. HUBERT. So that their backs are there?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; correct--excuse me--except in the offices here
[indicating]--some of these may face as Mr. Jeffery does--this way.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you’re talking about the offices along the
Houston Street side?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But the numbered desks--all persons, if seated at those
desks--would have their backs to Houston Street?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you take the map, and dictate into the record
who was the occupant of the various desks, and I think you have already
done so as to No. 2, so you may start with No. 3.
Mr. NEWNAM. No. 3--Miss Georgia Mayor, secretary.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she the secretary to?
Mr. NEWNAM. She is the--just an office secretary--no individual.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, before you go on--I take it that all of this
chart and the position of the desks and the people occupying them
relate to November 22, 1963; is that correct?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; and I was just having to think. There have been a
few changes from the present back to then.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if we can just put it as to the 22d of November, then
we won’t have to worry about who occupies the various places now.
Mr. NEWNAM. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. No. 3 was Miss Georgia Mayor?
Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.
Mr. NEWNAM. No. 4--Mrs. Walker, secretary to the retail advertising
manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember her first name?
Mr. NEWNAM. Wanda.
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Wanda Walker?
Mr. NEWNAM. Mrs. Wanda Walker. No. 5--Mr. Dick Saunders, advertising
salesman. No. 6--Mr. Charley Mulkey.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Mr. NEWNAM (spelling). M-u-l-k-e-y, advertising salesman--these are all
salesmen. No. 7--Mr. Larry Kramer (spelling) K-r-a-m-e-r, advertising
salesman. Did I give you No. 6?
The REPORTER. No. 6 was Mr. Mulkey.
Mr. NEWNAM. No. 6 should be Mr. Ralph Crumpton, advertising salesman; 7
Mr. Kramer; 8 will be Mr. Charley Mulkey, advertising salesman; 9 Mr.
Douglas Raiford; No. 10 Mr. “Rip” Collins--we call him by the nickname
“Rip” Collins, advertising salesman; No. 11 Mr. Len (spelling) L-e-n
Reynolds, advertising salesman; No. 12 Mr. Jim Packer, advertising
salesman; No. 13 Mr. Paul Jones, advertising salesman; No. 14 Mr. Jim
Willmon (spelling) W-i-l-l-m-o-n, advertising salesman; No. 15 Mr.
Buddy Jones, assistant retail advertising manager; No. 16 Mr. Bob
Johnson, advertising salesman; No. 17 Mr. Jim Sullivan, advertising
salesman; No. 18 Mr. Bill Rea (spelling) R-e-a, advertising salesman;
No. 19 Mr. Hal Cooley (spelling) C-o-o-l-e-y, advertising salesman;
No. 20 Mr. Jules Allen (spelling) J-u-l-e-s A-l-l-e-n, advertising
salesman; No. 21 Mr. Bill Lawson, advertising salesman; No. 22 Mr.
Byron Bates, advertising salesman; No. 23 John Newnam, which is
my desk, advertising salesman; No. 24 Mr. Jerry Coley (spelling)
C-o-l-e-y, advertising salesman; No. 25 Mr. Don Campbell (spelling)
C-a-m-p-b-e-1-l, advertising salesman; No. 26 Mr. Kenney Ritchel; No.
27 Mr. Dick Houston, advertising salesman.