to Captain Fritz’ office--and I don’t know when I have ever been up to
Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about this showing of Oswald to the
newsmen assembled in the assembly room downstairs about this time?
Mr. HODGE. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the police seem to know Ruby, that is, the ones who
were escorting you?
Mr. HODGE. They just laughed--that’s all that was said. They never
answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he asked them, “Is it true that you’ve got
him under arrest?”
Mr. HODGE. He said, “You fellows don’t have Hodge under arrest, do
you?” and they just laughed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to catch the joke or understand or did he seem
to believe that you were under arrest?
Mr. HODGE. Well, he was standing to my side and I didn’t turn around
and look at him. I didn’t notice the expression on his face. When he
looked across over to these detectives, they was over on the right-hand
side and I was in the back--in the back of the elevator and it
didn’t dawn on me who he was until the next day when I was out at Red
Jackson’s.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean was the 24th?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; on Sunday. Yes--on Sunday, the following Sunday when
Ruby is supposed to have shot Oswald, when this Congressman called and
asked Mr. Jackson and said that Jack Ruby shot him, I said, “My God,
that’s who rode the elevator down with me. I knew I knowed him but I
didn’t recognize him” and I said, “I didn’t recognize him until now.”
Mr. HUBERT. All right--a couple more questions----
Mr. HODGE. Pardon me--that same Sunday that this had happened, that
afternoon I had some friends from Waco come up and they were gun
collectors and they had an auction out here and after I left Mr.
Jackson I went by the auction and went back to the gunshop and they
went with me and we were in the gunshop and there was two more FBI
agents came in and we walked back to the back and they showed me a
picture of a striptease girl that had worked for Jack Ruby and wanted
to know if I knew her and if I knew her whereabouts and I had never
seen the girl before, because I don’t visit those places, and I had
never been in one of Jack Ruby’s places, because I’ve got my hands full
tending to my own business, and also, they wanted to know if I ever
seen Jack Ruby and Oswald together, and I’d never seen Jack Ruby for 4
years or longer.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, returning to your statement, which has been identified
as Exhibit No. 1, it appears that the third paragraph of that statement
is completely at variance with what you have just testified to. That
is to say, that paragraph indicates that he asked you “whether they
had arrested you,” whereas your testimony is that you in a semiserious
manner indicated to him that you were under arrest and he asked you
whether you weren’t kidding and then turned to the police----
Mr. HODGE. No; he didn’t say, “Are you kidding.” Yes; he did--he said,
“You’re kidding,” but I said it low, I didn’t want to go into detail
why I was up there and it wasn’t none of his business and I knew I knew
him but I didn’t know just who he was at the moment, and I just--I
don’t know why you would say those things, but I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the point I’m trying to make is that
this third paragraph is deficient in two ways: One is that it has him
asking you whether you were under arrest, whereas, you, in fact, told
him in the manner you have described, that you were under arrest, and
then he asked you whether you were kidding or not, and you told him
“No,” and he asked you what you had to do with it, and you said, “It’s
a long, long story” and all of which is not in this paragraph, nor is
there in this paragraph the portion about his turning to the police and
asking them if it was true, and their laughing about it. That’s not in
here either?
Mr. HODGE. Well, I told those agents just like I’ve told you.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand that, but in any case--all I’m trying to
do is to reconcile Exhibit No. 1 with your testimony, and in order to
do so I have to bring out that this third paragraph of Exhibit No. 1
and as it is here is incorrect and incomplete--both: is that correct?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the statement you have given us here is what is
the truth and is what you say you did tell the FBI agents?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Prior to the beginning of your testimony, you
had conversed with me a bit along the lines that I have questioned you
about, and is it not a fact that all of the matter that we talked about
prior to the beginning of this deposition has now been brought out
in the course of the deposition? To put it another way, that we have
not--that we did not discuss prior to the taking of this deposition
anything which has not been covered in the deposition?
Mr. HODGE. I believe that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Because--if you can think of anything that we talked about
that has not been put down in the record, I want to get it in. I can’t
think of anything, but I’m asking you?
Mr. HODGE. Well, now, yesterday and today I called Captain Fritz and
also Mr. Baker and they both promised to get the names of those two
detectives that took me downstairs on that elevator and get them to
verify the fact that----
Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby was there?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; that Jack Ruby was there, and that he said those words,
and I didn’t recognize Jack Ruby on that elevator until the next day
out at Mr. Jackson’s and when they said Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you did say to the FBI people when they
interviewed you on the 24th that you had gone down on the elevator with
two detectives and with Ruby? You told them that, although it doesn’t
appear in this exhibit?
Mr. HODGE. Now, which is the 24th?
Mr. HUBERT. The 24th is Sunday.
Mr. HODGE. Yes; I told them that Sunday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. You told them Sunday afternoon that you had gone down the
elevator in the company of two detectives and Jack Ruby?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you told that to anyone else since?
Mr. HODGE. Oh, I’ve told it to several people--the detectives, Captain
Fritz, and all of them, they knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from Captain Fritz about who those two men
were?
Mr. HODGE. No; he hasn’t called me. He had Baker to call me and Baker
told me, he said, “Mr. Hodge, now”----
Mr. HUBERT. That’s today--Baker called today?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; Baker called this morning. He said, “I’m the one that
took you from Captain Fritz’ office up to the fourth floor and showed
you the gun,” and he said, “I’ll find out who the two boys was that
escorted you back down to the basement to move your car.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell Captain Fritz that you had gone down the
elevator with Ruby and two detectives?
Mr. HODGE. I told him that day before yesterday.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean prior to that time?
Mr. HODGE. No; I don’t think I had. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had told the FBI people?
Mr. HODGE. I sure did. I told them the whole story. I said--I guess
this is the same--is this the two that questioned me about the
telephone call?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, sir. This is the interview by Agents Anderton
and Hardin.
Mr. HODGE. I used to know practically all those agents down there--the
FBI agents--when Murphy was there and the agent in charge before him,
and I used to keep their file in my place.
Mr. HUBERT. These are the agents who interviewed you on Sunday, not on
Friday or Saturday?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; you see, that was Sunday afternoon after I found
out--it dawned on me who Jack was--and it was about 5 o’clock in the
afternoon, I’d say, when they came in the gunshop.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever interviewed thereafter, after Jack Ruby shot
Oswald, by the Dallas police?
Mr. HODGE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. The only other interview you had was with the FBI?
Mr. HODGE. That’s right, but I told all those detectives with homicide,
the different ones that have been in my place, and I repeated just what
I’ve told you, that it was Jack Ruby that rode down on the elevator and
asked me those questions.
Mr. HUBERT. And that there were two Dallas Police Department detectives
with you and him, Ruby, on the elevator at the time?
Mr. HODGE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You have told that to others?
Mr. HODGE. To numerous others.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you mention any names?
Mr. HODGE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you spoke to Captain Fritz about it the other
day, that was the first time you had talked to Captain Fritz about that
aspect; is that correct?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?
Mr. HODGE. No. He was on the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. But he said he would try to find out who those people were?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you’ve had a call from Baker and who identified
himself as having escorted you to the fourth floor and Baker said he
would try to find out who the other two men were and let you know, but
he has not done so up until now; is that right?
Mr. HODGE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it that suggested to you that you ought to have
the names of those men?
Mr. HODGE. Well, it would verify that he did ride the elevator down
with us and that the conversation did take place.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after you got the letter from Mr.
Rankin asking you to appear here today that it occurred to you that you
ought to have the names of those men so that you could tell me those
names if I asked you about it; is that correct?
Mr. HODGE. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s when you called Captain Fritz just yesterday,
Thursday, June the 25th?
Mr. HODGE. That’s right and he told me, he said, “I’ll tell you, I’ve
got a bunch that works days and nights and I’ll have to question all of
them, but I’ll find out which one it was.”
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you could recognize those men if you saw them?
Mr. HODGE. You know, I thought it was Potts and Baker, but they say
Potts works burglary and theft, but they could have had some of the
burglary and theft men over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Baker is the one that took you up on the fourth floor?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; that’s what he verified today.
Mr. HUBERT. But Baker was not one of the men who took you downstairs?
Mr. HODGE. I wouldn’t swear to it--of course, they may not want to come
forth and tell it, you see, but there’s nothing to hide, and if it will
help, I think that they should do it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you expect to hear from Captain Fritz still?
Mr. HODGE. I’m going to call him back and see what he’s found out, but
they agreed to call me back.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know what time you were going to appear here today?
Mr. HODGE. I told him today at 2:30--told Baker.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that’s all, and I thank you very
much.
Mr. HODGE. I only hope this will be of some help to you. If you’re down
that way on Ervay Street, stop by my gunshop.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you, I have depositions all tonight and
tomorrow in the day and it’s very unlikely I’ll be able to do it.
Mr. HODGE. I have a lot of antique guns and modern guns too, although
you may not be interested in them.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know much about guns. Frankly, I would like
to say I would accept your invitation, but I know I am going to be busy
tonight and tomorrow with these depositions.
Mr. HODGE. I’m not throwing myself no bouquets, but I have always
cooperated with the FBI, and as I say, they fingerprinted me, they took
my life history and everything and they turned their file over to me. I
had several agents I was good friends to in the past, and you can find
out by talking to two or three, and of course, they move them about,
but you can find out that there were some criminals, you know, that
would be in that bar, and I opened up this gunshop and it’s just around
the corner from the bus station and these drifters come in and going
through, and they will verify what I told you.
And, I’ll tell you--some people call you a stool pigeon and it looks to
me like you can be a good citizen, but the courts won’t protect you on
these things. This fellow that killed this man and woman out here--if
you’ve got a minute?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. HODGE. Well, Captain Fritz’ men came by with a shell, a Peters Wad
Cutter, and that’s this man and woman that got killed a few days ago
out here and it has no concern with this case, but anyway, I checked my
book and I found where I sold that man a gun and a box of ammunition,
and they couldn’t find nobody else that had that particular kind of
ammunition, they said, so I called Captain Fritz and gave them that
information and they went out and called me back in 2 hours and they
said, “Boy, you’re just as right as rain,” and I give them a list of
all the .45 automatics I had sold, and so they went out and picked
up this bloody uniform and got a confession from him and he admitted
everything and got the gun and the amount of ammunition that they
found at the scene plus what was in the box, and so I cooperate fully
with them, but you stick your neck out. Some of those characters--if
this man gets out on bond, what’s to keep him from coming down there
and killing me? But I believe it’s being a good citizen if you know
anything, to come forth with it and tell it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything other than what you’ve said to me
or anybody else that you would like to say about this matter?
Mr. HODGE. Everybody’s got an opinion and it’s talked around--of
course--there’s pro and con, but they all seem to think that--I have
heard different ones talking and they seem to think that there is a
connection there between those two, Oswald and Ruby, and that probably
Ruby was--I guess you know about him, that they found a bunch of
money--about $10,000 in his apartment, and people talking say it’s
payoff money, but I don’t know nothing. That’s the first time I’d seen
that Jack Ruby in 4 or 5 years and it didn’t dawn on me who he was, and
I just thought I’d just shut him up, and when he asked me that, I just
said in a low voice, “They’ve got me arrested,” and he said, “Oh, you
fellows don’t have Hodge arrested, do you?”
Mr. HUBERT. No; what I was trying to get at--is there anything you have
not stated to anyone, any facts or knowledge that you have concerning
Ruby or Oswald or the assassination of the President that you haven’t
told anybody that you want to take advantage of this occasion to say it?
Mr. HODGE. If there is, I don’t recall what it is, because I’ve told
you just straight down the middle of what had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I didn’t know what you were leading up to awhile ago
and perhaps it was nothing at all, but as I say, if there’s anything
you want to say, you could say it now, you know?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I would, but that’s it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you, sir; very much.
Mr. HODGE. Thank you a lot. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID L. JOHNSTON
The testimony of David L. Johnston was taken at 2 p.m. on June 26,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of David L. Johnston.
Mr. Johnston, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of
Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution,
I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I
state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Johnston, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about
Jack Ruby and his operations, movements, and associates.
Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter
addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you have it?
Mr. JOHNSTON. The letter is rubber stamped June 22, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. And you received it when?
Mr. JOHNSTON. It was received in the U.S. Post Office, Dallas, Tex.,
on June 23, and had to be forwarded to the Post Office at Richardson,
Tex., where it was received on June 24, and I received the same on June
24, 1964 at 12:10 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission which you have probably
complied with here, every witness has a right to a 3-day written notice
before their deposition can be taken, counting from the date of the
letter, but in any case the rules provide that a witness may waive the
3-day notice.
Mr. JOHNSTON. I will waive that at this time, if it’s involved here;
yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you. Would you rise and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I am David L. Johnston.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I am 36; I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your address?
Mr. JOHNSTON. My residence address is 100 North Dorothy in Richardson,
Tex. My office address is in the County Government Center, 1411 West
Beltline Road, Richardson, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I am the elected justice of the peace, precinct No. 2 of
Dallas County, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you a lawyer too?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I am not an attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. What term are you serving?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I am serving my second elected term, which expires
December 31, 1966.
Mr. HUBERT. The term is for how long?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Four years.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been in that office for how long?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I took office January 1, 1959. Prior to that I was with
the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department for 9½ years.
Mr. HUBERT. Under Sheriff Decker?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Under Sheriff Decker; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What are the general duties of the justice of the peace in
Texas?
Mr. JOHNSTON. The justice of the peace in Texas has civil jurisdiction
up to $200 in civil matters; has misdemeanor jurisdiction as provided
by the statutes for criminal offenses of a misdemeanor nature in which
the fine does not exceed $200 plus the costs. He is the acting coroner
under our statutes. He is a magistrate. He can hold courts of inquiry,
issue search warrants or any process relevant to a felonious act in the
State of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. How many such justices are there in Dallas County?
Mr. JOHNSTON. In Dallas County there are 10.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it based on geographical area division?
Mr. JOHNSTON. It is divided into precincts, but in criminal matters,
the 10 have coextensive jurisdiction with the county and in some cases
with the State. Our warrants of arrest, for instance, are valid
anywhere in the State of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you elected by the people of the precinct?
Mr. JOHNSTON. By the people of the precinct; yes, sir, and that’s by
the precinct level.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s a geographical area?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to November 22, 1963, did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I have seen Jack Ruby, I did not know him
personally--have never been introduced to him; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where had you seen him?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I’ve seen him in downtown Dallas. I saw him one night
in front of the Vegas Club on Oaklawn. I have seen him around the
courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. People have pointed him out to you?
Mr. JOHNSTON. The night at the Vegas Club, an officer said, “That’s
Jack Ruby.” That’s all I can tell you there. Like I said, I’ve never
met the man--I had never met the man until Friday night, November 22,
or the early morning of November 23.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was a character apparently that people would point
out to a man of your standing, that is to say, as being a character in
the Dallas area?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; this is possible. Like I say, I’m sure that there
has been other occasions that I’ve seen the man. I just can’t recall
them at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d or the 23d, at anytime when you did see him, you
recognized the face and of course you recognized the name?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I didn’t recognize him as such. To clarify that,
as stated in the report that I gave to the FBI--this is the card that
Mr. Ruby handed to me after Mr. Oswald had been removed from the police
detail room. He handed me this card and introduced himself to me as
Jack Ruby. He was present in that room the whole time that Oswald was
in the detail room, which was the late night of November 22 and the
early morning of November 23, from approximately 11:30 p.m. until maybe
12:15 a.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the assembly room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; in the detail room or the assembly room of the
police department.
Mr. HUBERT. It is also used as the showup room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; it’s used as the showup room and the showup screen
was right behind where Oswald was standing and Ruby was standing--if
this was the actual room, the showup room would be at my back now,
which would be the south wall of this room. Oswald was standing in the
aisleway here in front of the desk.
Mr. HUBERT. In front of the screen.
Mr. JOHNSTON. Ruby was in the same row back behind two tables with
chairs in front of them. I was standing on the little podium with Mr.
Henry Wade, the district attorney of Dallas County, and a couple of the
Dallas police officers and I can’t at this time recall who they were,
but we were standing on the podium part and were about 10 feet from
Oswald. Mr. Ruby was, I would say, from 18 to 22 feet out in front of
us.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first notice him there?
Mr. JOHNSTON. When he came up and introduced himself to me.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had been removed?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That was after Oswald had been removed from the room.
Chief Curry ordered him removed because the newspaper people started
milling a little too much, which he told them he was going to do, and
he removed him from the room.
Mr. HUBERT. But your thought was and is now that Oswald was in that
room for approximately 30 or 40 minutes?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was between 11:30 and 12:15?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; it was between 11:30 and 12:15, but I would say that
they had Oswald in that room less than 10 minutes.
Everyone was in there and set up. Chief Curry came in and told them
that they would have to remain still, that if they started milling or
if they started moving he was going to remove the suspect, which when
they did, he removed him.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the room prior to the time Oswald was
brought in?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I would say probably 10 minutes, maybe 15.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe Ruby during the time that you were in the
room prior to the time Oswald came in?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I can say that he was in the room because I was watching
everyone that was in the room.
Mr. HUBERT. But he actually didn’t introduce himself until Oswald left?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Until Oswald had been removed; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing on a table or chair or something like that?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I believe that at one time he was either on a chair or
the table. When I first noticed the man he was standing on the floor,
and I believe towards the last he was up either on a chair or on a
table.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statement or make any kind of comment at
all at any time?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Something like “It’s horrible, isn’t it horrible?” or
something of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. That was to you yourself?
Mr. JOHNSTON. To me and to Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney of
Dallas County.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had been removed?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That was after Oswald had been removed. He came up
shortly after one of the newspaper media had just finished interviewing
Mr. Henry Wade. He was standing behind that person during the interview
and when he finished that was when he introduced himself, both to Henry
Wade and to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he make any comment?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Just this--“It’s horrible” or “Isn’t this awful” or
something to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general demeanor or attitude?