of the fact certainly that the Dallas Police Department checks on that
type of thing.
Mr. HUBERT. What I’m trying to get at--do you specifically remember him
saying something to the effect that I wouldn’t do that because I might
lose my license?
Mr. HALLMARK. I don’t recall his ever stating that definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you thought that during the 3 years,
more or less, period you probably spoke to Ruby probably 30 minutes a
week at odd times?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; probably.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him express any ideas concerning a
political philosophy?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever discuss international politics or ideologies?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; not with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 23d when you saw him, what was your impression
of his reaction to the death of President Kennedy?
Mr. HALLMARK. I described him to Mr. Carter as being a preoccupied and
an intense person.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean generally so?
Mr. HALLMARK. Generally so. Ruby was--everything was either black or
white with Ruby. There was no inbetween. He almost always in these
conversations which I would have with him, he would probably be
listening to me but he would be staring off--at anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that’s during the 3 years you knew him?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; and on this afternoon he was just more so. After he
had closed this conversation with the diskjockey or newsman, if you
prefer, he walked east on Commerce Street away from his club. In other
words, he walked up past--I don’t know at what point he walked, but he
walked past his competitors.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Colony Club?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; that’s right, and he was gone about 2 minutes and he
came back and when he came back he stopped right outside this cashier’s
cage and stood there and looked for--it seemed like 2 full minutes. He
acted like he wanted to say something, but he never did until he said,
“I’ll see you, Claud”, and then he went and got in his car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you form the impression then, on the 23d, that he was
acting a bit differently than he usually did or has that impression
been formed in retrospect?
Mr. HALLMARK. The best words I can think of to use--he was typically
himself only more so.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, did you get the impression of the “more so”
then or did you think about it later and realize that it was more so?
Mr. HALLMARK. I got it then.
Mr. HUBERT. You got it then and there?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t comment to anybody about it?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; not specifically.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the 23d you had the mental reflection
that Ruby is acting a little bit differently than he usually does?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; and the remarks which he made. He remarked to me and
the first person he talked to on the telephone about what had happened
to the President was terrible. Of course, I would certainly not object
to his using the phone, he has used it numerous times, but I just
acted, you know, I just left him alone. I didn’t try to engage him in
any conversation or anything because, or partially because of the way
he was acting.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the manifestations of a difference in his
attitude not only impressed itself on your memory at the time, but
actually caused you to behave toward him differently than normally you
would have?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; it did, although I don’t recall having anything that
I wanted to talk to him about.
Mr. HUBERT. But you mentioned a moment ago that you refrained
deliberately from your normal attitude with him?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Because of the strangeness of his attitude?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; I didn’t want to impose myself on his thoughts
whatever they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he was worried about the effect of the
assassination of President Kennedy on his own business affairs?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; not except for the fact that he closed both his
clubs. He had closed them the night prior and they were to be closed
that night and the next, but he said nothing about the money it would
cost him to close. He did ask me about the other--the neighboring
places of business like his own. He asked me if I knew whether they
would be open or not, and, of course, I told him that I did not know,
and so he stated that they wouldn’t have nerve enough to open after
they had seen his ad. At the time I had not seen his ad. I looked at it
later, and he had run an ad in the paper which stated that his clubs
would be closed. It was a good-sized ad for that type place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he comment about the effect of the assassination
on his future business rather than on the closing for the 3 days?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; he made no comment about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment concerning his worry that for some
reason the Jews might be implicated in the killing of the President on
account of the Weissman ad?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; I heard nothing of that nature. As a matter of fact
in having known him, I don’t know, and of course, I realize that Ruby
was Jewish, but I don’t believe that I ever heard him say anything
related to the fact that he was a Jew. I believe I would--rather people
would get the impression that he was not Jewish. This is from looking
at the thing and remembering it.
Mr. HUBERT. In retrospect?
Mr. HALLMARK. In retrospect.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any sensitivity on his part because he was
a Jew?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; I have never. Like I say, I believe that he would--I
think he would rather people have not known that he was a Jew, but
that’s my thinking, just because of the fact that we have never
touched upon that in any of our conversations.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a boy by the name of Larry Crafard who worked
for Ruby for awhile?
Mr. HALLMARK. Now, when was that?
Mr. HUBERT. Just before the assassination of the President last year?
Mr. HALLMARK. No; I do not recall that name. I did not ever try to
strike up an acquaintance with any of Ruby’s employees.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, your duties cause you to move around from one
place to the other?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many places did you have under your supervision?
Mr. HALLMARK. I’m in charge of about eight downtown garages,
specifically.
Mr. HUBERT. You were then?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes. When Ruby first moved into the Carousel it was the
Sovereign Club, and I was the manager at that one specific garage then
and that was Nichols Garage, and I don’t remember exactly at what point
I was made general manager and moved out, as you have described.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have sort of a headquarters office?
Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; I headquartered--in other words, I usually parked my
car there at 1320 Commerce, probably out of habit, but that was usually
the first place in the morning and the last place in the evening. I
generally called that headquarters at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t know any of the people who worked there as
entertainers?
Mr. HALLMARK. I knew them by sight only. I never tried to strike up a
conversation with any of them or any acquaintance.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, is there anything else you would like to add,
sir?
Mr. HALLMARK. I don’t think so--I can’t think of anything that I would
want to add.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t believe there has been any conversation
between us except that which has been recorded, is that correct?
Mr. HALLMARK. I believe that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down.
Mr. HALLMARK. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. And I appreciate your taking the time to do so--thank you
very much.
Mr. HALLMARK. All right, thank you, Mr. Hubert.
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED DOUGLAS HODGE
The testimony of Alfred Douglas Hodge was taken at 2:55 p.m., on June
26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Alfred Douglas Hodge.
Mr. Hodge, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of
Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution,
I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I
state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is
to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Hodge, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about
Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth.
Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you
by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s
Commission, asking you to be present, isn’t that correct?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was probably dated the 22d of June and
you received it yesterday or the day before?
Mr. HODGE. The day before.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission all witnesses
are entitled to a 3-day written notice before their depositions may
be taken, dated from the date of the letter, which rule may have
been complied with here, but in any case the rules also provide that
any witness may waive that 3-day notice and I ask you now if you are
willing to testify at the present time?
Mr. HODGE. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so I may administer the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your name, please?
Mr. HODGE. Alfred Douglas Hodge.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. HODGE. At 6573 Kenwood.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. HODGE. Fifty-five.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. HODGE. I have a gunshop.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear any trade name?
Mr. HODGE. Buckhorn Trading Post.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. HODGE. 215 South Ervay.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that also connected with a bar?
Mr. HODGE. That’s 213--it’s the bar next door to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You operate both businesses?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Both called “Buckhorn”--one is the Buckhorn Bar and the
other is the Buckhorn Trading Post?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And the Trading Post sells guns?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you officially licensed to do so under the laws of the
State of Texas?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I have previously today shown you a document which I have
marked for identification in the right-hand margin as follows; “Dallas,
Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the Deposition of A. D. Hodge”,
and I have signed my name below that. That document purports to be the
report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Anderton and Hardin on
November 24, 1963, and I ask you if that report of the interview is
substantially correct?
Mr. HODGE (read instrument referred to). Well, now--this--the Dallas
Police Department----
Mr. HUBERT. What line are you talking about?
Mr. HODGE. Right here--“The Dallas Police Department wanted him to
check all of his records concerning the sale of the assassinator’s
weapon”--I don’t recall the Dallas Police did that. I did that on my
own and I called the FBI and they came down and he kind of went over
the books with me, you see.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you are speaking, Mr. Hodge, of the last three
lines of the second paragraph of this document, right?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where it indicates that the Dallas Police asked you to do
that, and the fact is, you said you made that investigation yourself
and reported what you had found to the FBI and to the Dallas police?
Mr. HODGE. I might have reported it to the Dallas police--I do that.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: I understand from the conversations
we had prior to the beginning of this interview that this interview
does not contain the entire story?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It does not contain the entire story of your participation
in this matter, and I’m going to get that in just a moment by asking
you to give the entire story as you gave it to me a moment ago, but
this document as far as it goes, is correct, I take it?
Mr. HODGE. Now, he didn’t ask me, “Have they arrested you?” He didn’t
say that. He says, “What are you doing up here?”
Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps if I question you, the differences between
what this Exhibit No. 1 says and what your testimony is will become
manifest, and to what extent your testimony differs from Exhibit No. 1,
then of course Exhibit No. 1 will be in error, is that correct?
Mr. HODGE. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we do it this way: Let me question you and then
we will talk a little while about Exhibit No. 1. What was your first
contact with the entire matter of the assassination of President
Kennedy?
Mr. HODGE. When it came in over the radio that he had been killed with
a 7-millimeter rifle, my wife and myself--we got our book and started
checking to see who we had sold a 7-millimeter rifle to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell a 7-millimeter rifle?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; several of them--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear this report?
Mr. HODGE. Oh, it must have been right after the--I don’t even know
what time it was--it was right after dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d of November, is that it?
Mr. HODGE. I guess so.
Mr. HUBERT. It was right after the President was shot, I take it--some
time right after?
Mr. HODGE. That was the day he was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard over the radio that he had been shot with a
7-millimeter rifle?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you and your wife proceeded to check your records to
see whether you had sold any such rifle to anyone?
Mr. HODGE. And then I called the FBI and they came down. They sent
an agent down and we showed him who we had sold them to, and I think
later that afternoon another one came back and wanted to know who we
sold the ammunition to, and I told him about three fellows that had
uniforms on with a bread truck--uniforms, you know, and they took those
descriptions and wasn’t going to check into that.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. HODGE. Well, that night I went home--that afternoon at 6 o’clock
and Capt. Will Fritz called me and asked me to come--if I could come by
or he would send a squad car out and pick me up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Captain Fritz?
Mr. HODGE. Oh, I know them all well.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that he called you?
Mr. HODGE. It was approximately 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. That night? That was 11:30 at night?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he want you to do?
Mr. HODGE. He wanted me to come down and look at the guns and see if I
could identify them, or if I had ever seen them before.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that he offered to send a squad car
for you?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I told him I had to go down and close the bar down
and I was on my way to town and that that would be unnecessary and I
would come by, and he told me to park my car down in the basement, and
I said “The police may not want me to,” and he said, “Tell them I said
so,” so I pulled down in the basement and I couldn’t find a place to
park, and I parked in front of some cars, detectives’ cars--plain cars,
and I went up on the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said something about having a dog in your car?
Mr. HODGE. I have a Dalmatian dog, watchdog.
Mr. HUBERT. You left him in the car?
Mr. HODGE. I left him in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. You then proceeded from the basement to what floor?
Mr. HODGE. The third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go?
Mr. HODGE. On the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you escorted by anyone?
Mr. HODGE. No; not until I got in.
Mr. HUBERT. You took the elevator in the basement?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got off, what happened?
Mr. HODGE. When I stepped out, three policemen stepped in front of me
and said, “What do you want up here?” and I said, “Captain Fritz sent
for me” and one of them went into Captain Fritz’ office and came back
and two of Captain Fritz’ detectives--they were.
Mr. HUBERT. In plain clothes?
Mr. HODGE. In plain clothes, and they got me and escorted me into his
office.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz’ office?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir; and we had just sat down and the lady on the desk
that answered the phone and she said, “Mr. Hodge, your dog will not let
the detectives get their car, would you mind going back down and moving
it?” and two of the detectives escorted me back down.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it then?
Mr. HODGE. That was about 11:45.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz called you at about 11:05?
Mr. HODGE. A little after 11.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time of that initial call by Fritz?
Mr. HODGE. Well, I left my house at 11:30 and I usually get down to my
store--it takes me about 20 minutes, and we close the place down at 12,
the bar, and so it gives me about 30 minutes from my home to the bar,
and I was finishing shaving and getting ready to leave to come back to
my bar.
Mr. HUBERT. So you left your house about what time?
Mr. HODGE. About 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. And that means that you got to the jail about what time?
Mr. HODGE. About 11:45 or 11:50.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, by the time you got the call to go back out again to
move your car it was near 12 o’clock?
Mr. HODGE. It was around 12 o’clock. Yes; probably 5 minutes until 12;
I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was in Captain Fritz’ office when you went in first?
Mr. HODGE. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald there?
Mr. HODGE. I didn’t see Oswald. I have never seen him except on TV, but
Captain Fritz has one office--I don’t know which office is his, but
the one on the left has a glass window in it, and when I went in this
hallway, out in the hallway where all the TV cameras was, there was
another hallway, and Captain Fritz waved at me--he seen me through this
glass and there was several people in there with him, and I went on in
a little office not quite as big as this and sat down. There was four
or five people there, and the lady on the desk--the phone rang, and she
said, “Mr. Hodge, you left a dog down in your car and the detectives
wants to move that car and they can’t move it, and would you go down
and move it,” and two of the detectives got up and went with me to the
elevator and got on the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. They were in plain clothes?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?
Mr. HODGE. No; so several other people came in on the elevator and this
fellow who turned out to be Jack Ruby was right up against me and he
turned around and he said, “Hello, there, Hodge, how are you getting
along?” and shook hands, and I looked at him and I knew I knew him but
it didn’t dawn on me who he was. I couldn’t think of his name although
it had been 3 or 4 years since I’d seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. How had you known him in the past?
Mr. HODGE. Well, when he first got to Dallas, I guess, he took over
his sister’s lounge, which is further down Ervay Street, and a lot of
nights you know, he would come up there after he closed his place up,
which would be 1 or 2 o’clock, you know, and I would still be cleaning
up and he would visit, being down below me there, and he would ask me
my opinions how to operate a bar and so forth and all.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had known him what--10 or 15 years?
Mr. HODGE. Yes, about that, but I hadn’t seen him in the last 4 or 5
years.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, so you got on the elevator with the two
detectives who were escorting you down and some other people got on and
among the other people was a man you now identify as Jack Ruby?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; and the next day--Sunday----
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute--let’s not get to that yet. So, he turns
around and what did he say--did he address you or you address him?
Mr. HODGE. He addressed me.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you?
Mr. HODGE. He stuck out his hand and I took his hand and shook hands
with him.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what was said?
Mr. HODGE. He said, “What are you doing up here?”
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you that?
Mr. HODGE. The very words, and I said, “They’ve got me arrested”--just
like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You said, “They’ve got me arrested”?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I felt that that would be all of it--I didn’t want
to tell him why or go into any details as to what I was doing up there
because it wasn’t none of his business, and he said, “You’re kidding.
You fellows don’t have him arrested, do you?”
Mr. HUBERT. Who did he say that to?
Mr. HODGE. To the two detectives. He said, “You fellows don’t have
Hodge arrested, do you?” And, they just laughed--they didn’t answer
back, and he turned around to me and he said, “What do you know about
it?” And I said, “It’s a long story.” By that time he was at the main
floor, so he gets off on the main floor and we go on to the basement
and move my car and these two detectives escort me back up to Captain
Fritz’ office. We went back in there, waded back through these TV
cameras back into his office, and Mr. Baker--I didn’t even know it was
Baker until today, and he called me and told me, he said, “Mr. Hodge,
I’m the man that took you from Captain Fritz’ office up to the fourth
floor and showed you the guns”, and when I looked at them, I said, “I’d
never seen those guns before,” and so that was all of it and I left.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you moved your car and went on up
with the same two detectives who brought you down, you went to the
third floor--you went back to Captain Fritz’ office, and then you went
to the fourth floor where the guns were?
Mr. HODGE. Baker took me up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you looked at the guns and you didn’t identify them.
How did you get out?
Mr. HODGE. I just come back and got on the elevator and went on down in
the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody have to identify you to get out?
Mr. HODGE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Baker come with you?
Mr. HODGE. I believe he did. He come back to the elevator and he got
off, I think, on the--I’m not positive about that, but he could have
gotten off on the third floor, and this FBI agent and I want to say
his name is Wilson, but I’m not positive, who I had called that day and
he had been down to the store and checked the books with me--he was on
the elevator too and I spoke to him.
Mr. HUBERT. This was when you were going down to go home?
Mr. HODGE. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you left the police station?
Mr. HODGE. Well, I didn’t go home--I went to my store.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you left the police station?
Mr. HODGE. Well, I think I got to the store approximately 12:15. There
was two FBI agents waiting there for me when I got there, and so they
told me they wanted to see me, and we walked on into the bar, I mean,
into the gunshop and they said, “Mr. Hodge,” and they showed me their
badges and all that about themselves--identified themselves, and
they said, “there’s an operator in Fort Smith, Arkansas that got an
anonymous call this afternoon stating ‘If you want to know who killed
the President, check with the manager of the Buckhorn Bar.’” I said,
“That could be one of my bartenders or it could be he probably throwed
some drunk out and he just wanted to be important and wanted to get
back at the bartender,” and they said, “Well, don’t think nothin’
about it.” They said, “We got one call this afternoon, Mr. Hodge, from
a woman that told us that her husband just confessed to killing the
President,” and so that was that.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of the FBI visit to you--to check out
this call, you say?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; yes, that was their purpose, I guess. That’s what they
said.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they ask you whether you knew Oswald?
Mr. HODGE. Oh, yes; they did.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever in fact seen Oswald?
Mr. HODGE. I have never seen him in my life that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you sold a gun to Ruby?
Mr. HODGE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never sold a gun to Ruby?
Mr. HODGE. I think Ray’s Hardware sold that gun, so I’ve been told.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, when you saw Ruby on the elevator?
Mr. HODGE. It was right within 10 minutes, I’d say 10 minutes till 12
or 12 minutes to 12.
Mr. HUBERT. And he got off on the main floor?
Mr. HODGE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went down one level further?
Mr. HODGE. Yes; we went on to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about an assembly room meeting where
Oswald was first shown to all the press who congregated in the assembly
room of the police department?