himself, that he did not seem to me that he was away out in space or
anything like that; he was coherent.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; at that time I don’t think he was, other than
this statement, as I said, that he made--“Isn’t it horrible, isn’t it
terrible?”--something to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge that to be a commonplace statement of the
day--that everybody was saying?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I certainly would.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you the justice of peace that arraigned Oswald?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I arraigned Lee Harvey Oswald--let me give you
the sequence of them--that’s the easiest thing to do. I brought the
complete record and I have everything here. The first charge that was
filed was for murder with malice of Officer J. D. Tippit of the Dallas
Police Department in cause No. F-153, The State of Texas versus Lee
Harvey Oswald. This complaint was filed at 7:05 p.m. on the 22d day of
November 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. By whom?
Mr. JOHNSTON. By Capt. J. W. Fritz, captain of the homicide bureau,
Dallas Police Department, was accepted by W. F. Alexander who is
William F. Alexander, an assistant criminal district attorney of Dallas
County, Tex., which was passed over to me at 7:05 p.m. The actual
complaint was signed at 7:04 p.m. and I arraigned Lee Harvey Oswald
at 7:10 p.m. on November 22, 1963, advising him of his constitutional
rights and that he had to make no statement at all, and that any
statement he made may be used in evidence against him for the offense
concerning which this affidavit was taken, and remanded the defendant
to the custody of the sheriff of Dallas County, Tex., with no bond as
capital offense.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your jurisdiction to do that?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did that occur?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That was in Captain Fritz’ office of the Dallas Police
Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Bill Alexander--William Alexander--an assistant
district attorney; Captain Fritz--these are--if I can remember
them--either two or three of the other homicide detectives; at least
one Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, and which one I couldn’t
say at this time because we were just all in and out of there, and I’m
almost sure it was one of the FBI agents, and which one, I couldn’t
say at this time because we were just all in and out of there, and I’m
almost sure there was one of the FBI agents in the room and possibly a
Secret Service agent.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been called specially for this arraignment or did
you happen to be there?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I was first called to handle the issuance of the search
warrant involving the residence at 1026 North Beckley.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you issue that search warrant?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; and not only did I issue the search warrant, I was
requested by the officers to go with them and also Assistant District
Attorney Bill Alexander was in on that search also, which turned out
to be the room in which Lee Harvey Oswald had been living on North
Beckley. I was present when that search was made and also seizure of
the things that were in his room.
Mr. HUBERT. Under Texas law is a man charged with murder required to be
brought before a committing magistrate, such as you, right away?
Mr. JOHNSTON. This can be done immediately forthwith before the
magistrate or a reasonable period of time--within a reasonable period
of time of the filing.
Mr. HUBERT. What occurs at such time--at such a proceeding?
Mr. JOHNSTON. In this particular incident, the complaint--the
affidavit--was read to the defendant, Lee Harvey Oswald, at which
time I advised him that this was merely to appraise him of his
constitutional rights and what he was charged with.
Mr. HUBERT. This was not a court proceeding?
Mr. JOHNSTON. This was not the examining trial; no, sir. It was not the
examining trial.
Mr. HUBERT. It did not call for a plea?
Mr. JOHNSTON. It required no pleadings whatsoever; no, sir. This was
merely to appraise him of what he was charged with and to advise him of
his constitutional rights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment upon that at all?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; but I can’t recall what it was. At this
particular time he made some remark. Also at the second arraignment
for the murder of President Kennedy, when he was brought through the
door at this time, he said, “Well, I guess this is the trial,” was the
statement that he made then, but I don’t remember what he said at the
arraignment regarding Officer Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s pass to the arraignment concerning President
Kennedy, and I wish you would dictate into the record the same
information you did as to the first one.
Mr. JOHNSTON. All right, sir. This was the arraignment of Lee Harvey
Oswald for the murder with malice of John F. Kennedy, cause No.
F-154, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald. The complaint was
filed at 11:25 p.m., was accepted by me at 11:26 p.m. It was filed at
approximately 11:25 p.m. by Capt. J. W. Fritz, homicide bureau of the
Dallas Police Department, and was accepted by Henry Wade, criminal
district attorney, Dallas County, Tex., and was docketed as cause No.
154, F-154 at 11:26 p.m.
Shortly after this is when the defendant was taken to the detail room
or the assembly room.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened at this arraignment--was it the same as
before?
Mr. JOHNSTON. He was not arraigned at this time. He was then arraigned
after he was removed to the detail room where the press was allowed to
have their first interview with the defendant, with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Subsequently in a conference between Captain Fritz, Mr. Wade, and two
or three of his assistants and myself, and Chief Curry--it was decided
to go ahead and arraign him and that arraignment was held at 1:35
a.m., November 23, 1963, in the identification bureau of the Dallas
Police Department, and once again I appraised him of his constitutional
rights, read the affidavit, and advised him again that I remanded him
to the custody of the sheriff, Dallas County, denying bond as capital
offense. He was also told at both of these instances that he would be
given the right to contact an attorney of his choice.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask this at either of these occasions?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; that was one of the first things he said--that
he wanted this man from New York of the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes [spelling] A-b-t; however that’s pronounced. He said
he would like to have this gentleman and I told Oswald when he made
that statement that he would be given the opportunity to contact the
attorney of his choice.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose duty was it to see that he was given that opportunity?
Mr. JOHNSTON. The telephone would be made available to him to make any
call he wished to make and that would have been advanced to him through
the normal routine: He possibly could have been given this permission
at the city jail and also had he ever made it to the county jail, here
again he would have been given the opportunity to contact a lawyer.
Mr. HUBERT. In any event, you made it clear to him that he had a right
to contact a lawyer?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That he had a right to be represented by counsel, that
he had the right to make a telephone call to contact any person of
his choice, and the assault to murder complaint, alleging the assault
to murder of John B. Connally in cause No. F-155, The State of Texas
versus Lee Harvey Oswald, this complaint was filed by Lt. Robert E.
McKinney of the forgery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. This
complaint was filed in my office at Richardson, Tex., at 6:15 p.m., on
November 23, 1963, and the defendant was not arraigned in this case
because he was already being held for two capital offenses. He would
have been arraigned in this probably the following week had he lived.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how Ruby was dressed at the time you saw
him?
Mr. JOHNSTON. As well as I can remember, the only thing I can say is a
white shirt with a tie and a dark suit.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat on?
Mr. JOHNSTON. He either had the overcoat on or he had it over his arm.
He did have an overcoat on.
Mr. HUBERT. What color was it?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I would say dark, is the best I can remember. He had on a
hat also.
Mr. HUBERT. The time you spoke to Ruby was, as you have indicated,
after Oswald had been taken from the assembly room and then Ruby
came up and introduced himself to you and to Wade. Did you have any
conversation with him at all?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I don’t remember exactly what was said by myself or Ruby,
but I do remember that it closed with--when he had given me his card
and he says, “Come by and see me sometime at the club”, and that was
the closing statement that was made to me by Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter see him?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; only, I saw the incident of the shooting on
the television, but I could not identify the man from the television
picture.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him, did he have any kind of identification
tag on?
Mr. JOHNSTON. A tag or anything; no, sir. There was nothing visible
that I saw. Now, if I remember correctly, as I say, he may have had his
overcoat over his arm--one arm or the other. He possibly could have
had something on that overcoat, but I do not recall seeing any type of
identification tag or an ID holder or anything hanging down that would
show that he was a member of the press or an officer or anything else.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, he handed you his card and you said that at the time,
he introduced himself to you and Mr. Wade. You have handed me here a
4-page document on yellow legal-sized paper, lined, did you mean for
me to have this?
Mr. JOHNSTON. You can read that if you want to--that’s the only copy I
have--no; I believe I do have a copy of that. I have furnished the FBI
with a copy of this also. Here is a copy of it which I will be glad to
give you and that’s a photostatic copy made by me.
This is my report that I wrote up starting on Monday morning after all
of these incidents had occurred. If I might answer--you also asked me
if I was called--I was asked by Assistant District Attorney William
Alexander when we were leaving the property on North Beckley to please
come on to Captain Fritz’ office at the Dallas Police Department for
the purpose of being present to be able to accept a complaint and issue
warrant, which was done.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that request made of you? I think the arraignment
was at 7:05?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; and I think I could tell you approximately the
time he asked me to, if I can find the time I have written in here when
it was filed. I would say it was around 5 o’clock in the afternoon when
he asked me--this search warrant was filed at 3:55 p.m. on November 22,
and I also have a copy which I will give you of the officers’ names who
I personally know were involved in the investigation, officers whom
I had contact with both at the Dallas Police Department and at the
sheriff’s office; to clear this up also, about how I came into this
thing--my first contact--I was attending the luncheon, when one of the
sergeants of the Dallas Police Department came to my table and asked me
to please come with him, and I was then informed of what had happened,
and was asked to go immediately to Parkland Hospital, and upon arriving
there found Judge Theron Ward, the justice of the peace, Precinct 3,
from Garland, handling the inquest on President Kennedy. They did not
know Judge Ward and that’s the reason they had called me, not knowing
he was already there.
Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me a photostatic copy of the document
I referred to a moment ago as being a 4-page document on yellow,
legal-sized lined pads, and you are retaining the original, but have
furnished me with a photostatic copy of it.
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I have marked that document for identification with this
deposition as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of
the deposition of David L. Johnston,” and I have signed my name. That’s
on the left margin of the first page, and I have placed my initials in
the right lower corner of the second, third, and fourth pages. I notice
that on the third page in the middle, there is a reproduction of a
Carousel Club card and I state for the record that I have examined the
original card which is attached to the third page loosely, and that the
picture on the photostatic copy is identical, except that it doesn’t
show the color, the vertical lines being in sort of an orange color.
Mr. JOHNSTON. This is the card that was handed to me also, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, as I understand it--that was the card that was handed
to you by Jack Ruby, and you have testified about that a little while
ago. You also handed me a photostatic copy of another document which I
have marked for identification; “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit
No. 2 of the deposition of David L. Johnston,” and I have placed my
name under that on the left margin and on the second page in the lower
right-hand corner I have placed my initials. I see that this is a
photostatic copy, because I am examining it with the original, the
original being on yellow legal-sized lined paper, and I compare them
and state for the record that the photostatic copy which I have marked
for identification is identical With the original which I now return to
you.
Now, you stated that Exhibit No. 2 is a list of the people you know who
had something to do with the examination in causes F-153, 154, and 155,
is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSTON. That’s correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain this information?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Part of these I took at the actual time, which was on
November 22 and November 23. Some of them I had to obtain from the
reports.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the names?
Mr. JOHNSTON. The names of the officers; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any statements from these people?
Mr. JOHNSTON. From the officers--no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You just made up a list of people?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; now some of these officers, of course, I have talked
with in regard to this at the time the investigation was being made.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this part of your function as a justice of the peace, to
do this?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are official records, I take it?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you say you talked to Ruby altogether on this
occasion on the 22d?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Three to five minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. After that you didn’t see him any more?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; of course, I left the Dallas Police Department
to go to my residence somewhere between 4 and 5 a.m. on the morning
of November 23 and did not return to the Dallas police station at any
subsequent period from then until the following Tuesday or Wednesday
before I returned. I was called about an hour after the shooting of
Oswald and put on standby notice, pending whether they could contact
Judge Pierce McBride, justice of the peace, precinct 1, place 2 of
Dallas County or Judge Davis, precinct 1, place 1. This man was in
custody at the time he was shot, and under our rules of criminal
procedure in the State of Texas, a prisoner dying while in custody--you
are supposed to first try to contact the justice of the peace in
whose precinct that particular death occurs. This is because he was
incarcerated or in custody, and they subsequently did contact Judge
McBride, who handled the inquest on Lee Harvey Oswald. I was on standby
notice to handle this, but in this particular instance, they did get
hold of Judge McBride.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the press interview of Oswald in the
assembly room at which you were present came to an end because the
press seemed to be violating the condition which Chief Curry had laid
down for the interview?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir. Not drastically, but there was enough
movement--my sincere feeling in this thing is that Chief Curry did
everything that was humanly possible to do to protect Oswald, that
his statement to the press before Oswald was brought in--to “get in
position, stay there, do not move, do not try to stand up, when you do
I’m going to remove him,” and as soon as this started--the milling got
a little bit too much--I mean--he didn’t call their hand--there were a
bunch of them kneeling and that’s a pretty uncomfortable position and
he held some of them there for a pretty good while before they brought
Oswald in, but when they started moving and attempting to stand up,
which I think was just merely to stretch their legs and so forth, he
took Mr. Oswald immediately out of that detail room.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any security precautions were observed
in searching or “frisking” as the phrase is, the people who were
allowed in the assembly room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; to my knowledge there was none of that went on.
However, there were at least--in that room, there were at least 50 or
60 officers.
Mr. HUBERT. And how many newspapermen?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Federal agents, local police officers, possibly one or
two deputy sheriffs, the district attorney, two of his assistants,
there were two or three private attorneys--private practicing attorneys
that were in that room, there were three or four of the police
department stenographers that were in that room, and possibly other
than the press there may have been one or two other citizens--couldn’t
say for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. How many were present?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I wish I could answer that.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say that there must have been nearly
a hundred people in that room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. There was every bit of a hundred people in that room.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the policemen armed?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; all of the officers as far as I know, other
than the plainclothesmen--the uniformed officers all had their sidearms
on. I’m sure the majority of the detectives had their sidearms on.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went in, was the room empty or were there
people in the room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; because the sequence of this was that after
Oswald was charged, Chief Curry, Captain Fritz, Henry Wade, and myself
went to the door--Captain Fritz was the first to speak and he advised
the press that we were going to move to the detail room or the assembly
room, that Oswald had been charged with the murder of President
Kennedy, and that they could go to the detail room in the basement,
and that Chief Curry would then give them instructions, and then Chief
Curry spoke to them and then Mr. Wade spoke to them, because there were
several members of the press there that wanted a statement from Henry
Wade before they moved away from that door. Then the hall was vacated,
I would say, to the extent that there were only maybe 15 or 20 people
left standing in that hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Everybody went downstairs?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Everyone went downstairs, and in order to let you know
this, and I’m sure that others have stated this--it was almost a human
impossibility to get down the hall to the homicide office. They finally
had to bring uniformed officers in and stationed two uniformed officers
at each door of the forgery bureau, the homicide bureau, the auto
theft bureau, and the burglary and theft bureau so that people could
be maneuvered down there to get in and out of these offices for other
routine business. That’s how packed it was with newspaper people in
that hall.
Mr. HUBERT. There were television cameras there too?
Mr. JOHNSTON. They had two live television cameras set up there, they
had one of these portable tape deals with a sound system on it and
everything, right in front of the door.
Mr. HUBERT. So what happened is that after it was announced that there
would be this interview granted, they all went down to the room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. They went downstairs to the room, and when I arrived
there, I would say about 11:35 or 11:40, somewhere right along in
there, the room was nearly full at that time with newspaper media.
Mr. HUBERT. So you don’t know whether they observed any security
precautions in checking people?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; they did not check me when I went through the
door.
Mr. HUBERT. But you went in with Curry?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You went in alone?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I went in alone.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no one at the door checking?
Mr. JOHNSTON. There was some uniformed officers there. Now, I’ll say
this in all fairness to them--maybe some of them knew me, I don’t
remember, because I can’t recall the officers names that were out there.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no identification on you?
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir. Of course, I’ve been an officer here a long time
and also 6 years as justice of the peace.
Mr. HUBERT. You were a police officer prior to that time?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Nine and a half years as deputy sheriff of Dallas County.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what pressures, if any were exerted by the
press on Chief Curry to grant this interview? Did you hear them say
anything or murmur or do anything at all?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; but as far as trying to tell you what any of
them said verbatim--this was the main thing----
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean verbatim, I just want to see if I can get the
atmosphere of it.
Mr. JOHNSTON. There were many remarks made. Each time any one of us
would go out the door from the homicide bureau, “When are we going to
see Oswald? When are you going to let us talk to him?” Yet, Oswald was
taken in and out of that room some five or six times while I was there.
He was taken to the restroom. He was taken to get a drink of water.
Mr. HUBERT. When that was done with him, did he have to pass through
this crowded area?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; those newspaper people--he certainly did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any remarks to him or ask him questions?
Mr. JOHNSTON. They were asking questions--yes, sir; “Did you do it? Did
they get the gun? Was that your gun?” Everything imaginable--that’s
what your newspaper people were calling to him as he would go out of
there. Every time I would leave to get a drink or get a cup of coffee
or anything, it was the same thing. “What’s happened? Tell us what’s
going on? Has he said anything? Has he admitted anything?”
Mr. HUBERT. Was there real pressure brought in the sense that the press
was being denied any rights or that they thought that Chief Curry was
curbing their rights as press people?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I think maybe to a degree some of the press might have
thought they were being curbed, because they were not being allowed
into the homicide office. It is a small office. It consists of an
entrance office, the lieutenant’s office and the captain’s office, and
an interrogation room, and a small office with a detective’s desk.
There were some 25 or 30 officials that were in this office and it was
pretty crowded. You couldn’t have let the press in. I think personally
that pressures were put on Chief Curry by the news media.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Do you remember anything significant along
that line?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I think the chief bent over backwards to them,
giving them every opportunity he could within reason to allow them
to get their stories and to get their pictures and to get their live
television. They even moved a live camera down to the detail room or
the assembly room.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it used there?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; it was in operation when I walked in that room.
Mr. HUBERT. It was televised?
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir. Now, whether they taped it, whether it was live
at that point--they had a live camera there set up.
Mr. HUBERT. In the room?
Mr. JOHNSTON. In the room--just inside the doorway of the assembly
room, because you had to step over the cables to it to get into the
assembly room.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear any such remarks like this one, “Well,
we knew what Oswald looked like a few hours ago, but since he’s been
in the hands of the Dallas police several hours, we don’t know what he
looks like now.”
Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or some side remarks like that?
Mr. JOHNSTON. I saw Oswald the first time and I imagine it was around
6 o’clock, and I was in Captain Fritz’ office with him at this
arraignment. I have now seen pictures--the first pictures that were
made of him. I have seen him there and seeing him during that evening
and early the next morning, I saw absolutely no change other than maybe
a little tiredness--no physical change in his appearances.
Mr. HUBERT. I did not mean to infer at all, let me get that straight,
that any force was used.
Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I understand. I know what you mean.