Ruby was standing on the north side--that is what I just told you--of
the entrance directly to the side of the stairway which leads to the
basement. He said there was four or five individuals. I think awhile
ago I told you there were three. I know there were a few. I may be
a little bit off. I am trying to get it just about as true as I can
remember it--standing at this time. He is not certain whether or not
they were police officers.
I believe they were police officers, or there was two of them. I know
there was a uniformed man in civilian clothes, and I think they were
detectives. I believe they were. He felt that the crowd was apparently
gathered at that time in anticipation of the fact that President
Kennedy would be driving through the downtown section.
I am not doubting that man’s word. That is just what I told him. If
that is what I told him, that would indicate to me that it was on that
morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did the crowd gather as early as 8:15 for the
President’s motorcade?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, to my way of thinking, I would say you asked me a
direct question. Every parade that I work, I work so many parades
downtown, usually any kind of parade, if it is like you start at 10
o’clock, your colored people come, they are the first ones, because
they are going to have a front row. Before anybody comes to work, they
are down there. Then you got the ones that, the mommas that haven’t
washed the dishes, and then the poppas, and I am satisfied it was that
same way that day. But from this here, to me, that would indicate that
that was that same morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a clear recollection at that time that it was
that morning, or were you just surmising?
Mr. HANSEN. I don’t, but I do recall this--I don’t have a clear
recollection now, but you know, there is a little concrete thing around
the city hall up there about this high, and they got some flowers in
there, and on a normal day, just any regular run-of-the-day week, I
mean a day in the week, you wouldn’t find anybody sitting on that thing
unless it is men that work for the schools and get their paychecks. I
do recall there were four or five people, come to think about it. I
remember they were spotted. Maybe a guy sitting here, and there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The fact that there were four or five people, that makes
you think it was the day of the motorcade?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, a normal day, like I said, Monday through Friday,
there wouldn’t be anybody sitting on there unless it was a day that the
old men come down to get their paychecks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been on Thursday?
Mr. HANSEN. It would have been more than four or five, because I can’t
help but remember because they blocked the whole sidewalk and spit
snuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you think it was the day of
the President’s motorcade?
Mr. HANSEN. Nothing else that I can remember outside I do remember
there was several people sitting on that, which is unusual unless there
is something going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be willing to say positively that it was the day
of the President’s motorcade?
Mr. HANSEN. No; I wouldn’t just make a flat statement, because I don’t
feel like I can. I am not that positive. But like I say, an ordinary
day, unless there is something going on, ordinarily there wouldn’t be
anybody sitting on that little stone railing around there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In your mind, is there just as much chance that it could
have been the day of the motorcade or is there just as much chance
it could have been the day before the motorcade, as the day of the
motorcade.
Mr. HANSEN. No. The fact that there were some people sitting on the
rail around there would indicate, it would make me lean toward the day
of the parade. But I am not going to make a flat statement it was the
day of the parade. But it would make me kind of think maybe it was that
day. That is as good as I can give it to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I am asking you questions like that is so we
can evaluate whether we should make a flat statement about it or how we
should treat it.
Mr. HANSEN. I don’t want to make a flat statement, because I can’t
connect anything in my heart, but it would make me think it was, due to
the fact the people were sitting on that thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate that.
Mr. HANSEN. I am trying to help you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your frankness on it. Let me ask you if you
are satisfied that this report otherwise is an accurate report of what
was said.
Mr. HANSEN. Let me show you. Everything but here. I think I remember
telling him this, but I think that he--I am not trying to put it off
on him, because he isn’t here, but I think the FBI man got this Silver
Spur Club mixed up with the Burgundy Room, or else I meant the Burgundy
and told him the Silver Spur, but this is where it happened. And I am
sure if you check through it further, that you can find out that this
actually occurred about this remark about this boy calling him a queer
and Jack knocking him down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it is clear enough that the record she is typing
up here will show all the corrections that we have talked about here,
and that is what we are trying to do, is get that into the record. Let
me ask then, if you will, if you are satisfied that other than what you
have pointed out as being incorrect, that this is an accurate report of
what you told them, I will ask you to sign.
Mr. HANSEN. I think it is pretty accurate. Where do you want me to sign
it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it up where I have marked it, anywhere in a
conspicuous place.
Mr. HANSEN. Sign this Timothy? Occasionally people call me Tim, but I
don’t know where he got Timothy. It is plain T-i-m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s cross that out.
Mr. HANSEN. Let me ask you, do the other policemen sign these things?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. If you don’t want to, it is simply a formality that
we go through, and if you would prefer not to sign----
Mr. HANSEN. Have any of the rest of them preferred not to?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there haven’t been any that declined to.
Mr. HANSEN. I have no reason not to sign. I will put it that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only reason we are doing is to establish for people
later on.
Mr. HANSEN. You want me to sign each page?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will, just initial the other sheets. We are simply
trying to establish for our own record that the documents that we have
been talking about is actually the document that winds up in the record.
Mr. HANSEN. I have helped you as much as I possibly can, and I was
figuring you would call me up and were going to ask me about the
parade, and all I can tell you is, I saw that the parade got through
and he didn’t get hurt, and I believe it would have broke my heart if
something had happened to him, because I never was so glad. It is just
like a man took a hundred pounds off his back. And before he got there,
of course, people ran and I was sweating blood, and I was afraid of
something, but when he got through there, it was just like somebody
took a heavy load off you.
And when I heard about what happened, I couldn’t believe it. I
couldn’t, like everybody else. A man came from the stock exchange and
whispered in my ear, and I knew he was either drunk or lying, and I
knew he didn’t drink. But I realized then, I began to--I guess you have
a dull feeling in your mind that you realize the President had been
shot.
Then when you put the two together and hear all the sirens, you knew
it actually happened. A policeman--because he’s got an instinct about
it. The first siren I heard, I said, “Well, that is bad, but I saw one
on Akard and a man don’t drive that way unless he is going to another
officer or something real bad. I had a bad feeling, or actually I
didn’t think--I thought somebody may have tried something, and it never
entered my mind that he actually had been hurt.
Then when that fellow told me, it was awful. I never will forget that
day. I never saw people look like that, walking around like a bunch of
mummies. It is hard to even talk about it now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer, I appreciate your taking all this time.
Mr. HANSEN. I hope I have helped you, and if I can do anything else for
you, let me know.
TESTIMONY OF DAVE L. MILLER
The testimony of Dave L. Miller was taken at 8:50 a.m., on July 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will introduce myself again. My name is Burt Griffin,
and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
We have a routine procedure before we actually take the testimony, of
explaining to the witness a little bit about what the Commission is
attempting to do.
The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President
Johnson, issued on November 29, 1963, and a joint resolution of
Congress.
Under these two official acts, the Commission has been directed to
investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, and the death of
Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate all the facts they find and report
back to the President of the United States.
Now, the reason that we have asked you to come here today in particular
is that you have known Jack Ruby for a period of time, and we are
hopeful that you can give us some insight into the kind of person he
was, and also some information concerning his activities shortly before
Oswald was killed.
Under the rules of the Commission, I have been designated to take your
deposition specifically. Also, under the rules of the Commission, you
are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice before we ask you to
appear here. I believe we sent you a letter?
Mr. MILLER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you received the letter?
Mr. MILLER. I moved from where I was. The letter was sent, and the
landlady called me Tuesday, and I went by the post office to get the
letter which had been sent special delivery, and the mailman carried
it, and I received it on Wednesday. But prior to that, Mrs. Stroud
called me and notified me I was to appear up here this morning, and I
have the letter at home. I called her and told her I had received the
letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me before
we go ahead with the testimony?
Mr. MILLER. No; you just go ahead and ask me the questions, and I will
answer them as truthfully as I know, and what I told the FBI when they
were here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MILLER. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your full name?
Mr. MILLER. Dave L. Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Miller?
Mr. MILLER. 5323 Live Oak, Apartment 105.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mr. MILLER. Since 1918.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. MILLER. I have a cleaning and pressing shop on Commerce Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name?
Mr. MILLER. Enquire Shine & Press Shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the address of that on Commerce?
Mr. MILLER. 1322 Commerce.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is that from the Carousel Club?
Mr. MILLER. About three doors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. MILLER. May the 26th, 1909.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Jack Ruby, don’t you?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Ruby?
Mr. MILLER. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet him?
Mr. MILLER. He had taken over the Carousel Club and brought some
clothes for me to clean for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see him fairly regularly after
that?
Mr. MILLER. He would bring his clothes in two or three times a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when Jack Ruby asked you to put up a
sign for him, or do some other advertising for him?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that, if you recall?
Mr. MILLER. That is when he first changed his club into the striptease.
He had some little, you call them little pages of folders--not folders,
but advertising, and I just put them up for the public.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it newspaper advertising?
Mr. MILLER. No; he had them printed himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Handbills?
Mr. MILLER. Handbills; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put them in your store window, or on the walls, or
what?
Mr. MILLER. We put them in the window at that time. Later on, Mr. Ruby
fixed a stand and we had pictures of that type on it, and I put it in
my window at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Ruby pay you anything for doing that?
Mr. MILLER. He has at times, would give me something. Sometimes $5,
just like an accommodation thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to talk with Mr. Ruby about any
of his problems that he was having?
Mr. MILLER. No; he never mentioned anything to me about his problems.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever have occasion to talk with you about his
competition, the Weinsteins?
Mr. MILLER. When he first changed to striptease, he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you, if you recall?
Mr. MILLER. Well, it seemed that the Weinsteins didn’t want him to have
a striptease, and he was going to show them he was going to stay in
the business. That was the only thing that he said anything about the
Weinsteins.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby tell you that the Weinsteins didn’t want him
to have the place, or did you hear from some of the Weinsteins, or some
place else?
Mr. MILLER. Jack Ruby told me himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What hours is your shine and press shop open?
Mr. MILLER. I am there from 6 in the morning until 6 at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that 6 days a week?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him sometime before he shot Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MILLER. Well, of course, I would see him almost every week, but
prior to the time of Lee Oswald, the day the President was killed, he
come in the place around 5:30, I imagine, and I had been putting the
sign in the window, and he asked me not to put the sign, because he
wouldn’t be open until after the funeral.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you estimate that it was 5 or 5:30?
Mr. MILLER. It was late in the evening, because it was pretty close to
my closing time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been earlier than 5 o’clock? Could it have
been as early as 3:30 or 4 o’clock?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that?
Mr. MILLER. Because, like I say, it was late in the evening, and I was
getting ready to close up, because we start getting the shine stand
cleaned and was going through that procedure at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were putting the sign in the window?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sign were you putting in the window?
Mr. MILLER. Well, he made a stand and put pictures of the girls and who
was the master of ceremonies, might have been, and, of course, he has
that at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put the sign in the window every night, or did you
leave it up all the time?
Mr. MILLER. Take it down during the day, and put it up at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why you took it down during the day?
Mr. MILLER. It was in the way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have any sort of routine as to when you
would put the sign up?
Mr. MILLER. Put it up just before closing time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been later than 5:30 in the evening?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that with a positive voice.
Mr. MILLER. Because I know it could have been no later, because he had
come in there about 5 or 5:30, about the time he was in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that this was on
November 22, the day the President was shot?
Mr. MILLER. It was on November 22; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did Jack Ruby say to you on that occasion when
he came into your shop?
Mr. MILLER. He come in and says, I feel he had been crying because his
eyes were real red, and he said, “What do you think of that s.o.b.
killing the President?”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Mr. MILLER. I told him it was a dirty shame that the thing had happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack remain there talking to you?
Mr. MILLER. Just less than 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention to you anything about where he had been
that day?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before he walked into the shop? That is to
say, did you see him walking down the street to your shop?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; because where our cash register is back in behind,
I couldn’t see him walking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he left your shop, did you see what direction he went
when he went out the door?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; didn’t pay him any mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you where he was going when he left?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again after that?
Mr. MILLER. I saw him Saturday night approximately the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him on that occasion?
Mr. MILLER. He come in the place that evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say when he came into the shop that evening?
Mr. MILLER. Nothing I can remember. He said he was coming in to ask me
how I was feeling, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain?
Mr. MILLER. Just a very short time. Maybe 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about what he had been doing?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you any indication of where he was going?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have anybody with him at that time?
Mr. MILLER. He was by himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the first occasion that he came in on Friday, did he
have anyone with him on that occasion?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir; he was by himself at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he came in on November 22, the day that the President
was killed, was there anybody else in the shop?
Mr. MILLER. Well, the shine boys and the pressers, and I think one of
the boys was shining a man’s shoes. Just don’t remember exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked with the boys in the shop about Jack
having been in there on those two occasions?
Mr. MILLER. You mean since I got this letter?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; since November 22.
Mr. MILLER. No; I haven’t said anything to them. Of course, one boy has
been with me a long time. He would remember him coming in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which boy is that?
Mr. MILLER. Sam Hicks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Sam to know whether he does actually
remember?
Mr. MILLER. I haven’t said anything to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Doesn’t your brother--isn’t there another Miller? Is that
your brother?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Izzie Miller, have you talked to him? Does he remember?
Mr. MILLER. He doesn’t stay around too much at the place down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he was present on these two occasions?
Mr. MILLER. No, he wasn’t there them two times; no, sir. He had had a
heart attack, and he takes it easy, so he won’t come down too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think any of the other employees besides Sam Hicks
might have seen Jack on that occasion?
Mr. MILLER. Well, you know them shine boys, they come and go, and I
would have to go back and look in my book I keep on them as to who was
working at that time.
Offhand, I couldn’t say. But I know Sam Hicks was working at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI report of the interview that they had with you
sometime ago indicates that Jack wrote you a letter while he was in
jail and mentioned both Sam Hicks and another one of your shoe shine
boys, Dwayne Armstrong. Dwayne Armstrong is a brother of the boy that
used to work for Jack Ruby, isn’t he?
Mr. MILLER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Dwayne working there at the time; November 22 and
November 23?
Mr. MILLER. I couldn’t really say. I would have to look it up. I
wouldn’t want to say yes, and I wouldn’t want to say no. I wouldn’t
remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Dwayne still working for you now?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a
copy of an interview report that was prepared by FBI agent, Edmond C.
Hardin as a result of talking with you on January 3, 1964. I am going
to mark it, “Dave L. Miller, deposition of July 25, 1964, Exhibit No.
1.”
This document consists of two pages numbered consecutively at the
bottom pages 37 and 38, and I will hand it to you and ask you to read
it, and then what I would like to know is whether that accurately
reflects what you told the FBI on that occasion, and also if you have
any changes that you would make in that?
[Mr. Miller reads report.]
Mr. MILLER. I told you about 5:30. There is only one thing I noticed
there. He says, “Ruby appeared in Miller’s place of business at 5:30 on
November 23” when he dropped in and asked me not to display the sign of
the Carousel Club.
He had done that on the 22d.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that he also did it on the 23d?
Mr. MILLER. I don’t remember whether he did it on the 23d, but I
definitely know it was on the 22d.
Of course, I might have made a mistake and told him the 23d, but I
definitely know the 22d.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen Jack Ruby in any fights?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack ever talked to you about any of his sensitivity,
the things that he objects to, or any of his personal ideas?
Mr. MILLER. No, he never said anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you know
about Jack Ruby that you would want to tell us that we haven’t covered?
Mr. MILLER. The only thing I know was, he was a darn good customer to
me, and he was very good to all the boys around there.
In fact, I was sick in the hospital and he come to see me one night.
And he would always ask how I was getting along, and even called the
hospital how I was getting along.
So, it was surprising to me that he would do anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other kindnesses that he bestowed on
people?
Mr. MILLER. Well, I know during the wintertime he would bring coffee
down to the boys in the two garages. There is a garage on each side of
me.
And if he went off from the place, he would always bring sandwiches.
He would give the shirt off his back. If you needed a dollar and he had
a dollar, he would give you the last dollar.
The boys would tell me at the garage that he brought the sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know George Senator?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see George Senator on November 22 or November 23?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. MILLER. I think I met Ralph Paul after the President was killed. He
come in one day, I believe it was something to do, I think, with the
Carousel Club. I don’t know exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Tammi True?
Mr. MILLER. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Little Lynn?
Mr. MILLER. No, sir. If I knew them--if I saw them, I didn’t know who
they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Kathy Kay? Do you know his dancer Kathy Kay?
Mr. MILLER. The only one I knew was the heavy body. I don’t know her
name--what the heck is her name? I don’t remember that. I didn’t know
her personally, but I knew her for I had seen her a time or two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know an entertainer named Breck Wall?
Mr. MILLER. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Larry Crafard? Do you remember this boy
Larry that worked for Jack about 6 weeks before the President was shot?
Mr. MILLER. I might know him, but the name don’t ring a bell. I can’t
recall. The names don’t ring no bell, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you saw Andy Armstrong on November 22
or 23?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Andy?
Mr. MILLER. He come down just prior to Jack’s coming down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On which day?
Mr. MILLER. The 22d.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed between the time that Andy
came down and the time that Jack showed up?
Mr. MILLER. Approximately 30 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy come into your shop?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in to talk to his brother, or what did he come
in for?
Mr. MILLER. He come down to tell me not to--he advised me not to put
the sign in at first, that Jack wasn’t going to operate that night.
I imagine he knew Jack was going to come down, so he come in ahead of
Jack and told me not to put the sign out that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say that when you saw Jack, you were putting the
sign in the window anyhow on Friday night?
Mr. MILLER. No. After Andy had come down and told me not to put it.
I never put the sign, but just about the time we closed the door,
because it has to fit in a certain place, but opening and closing the
door, it would be in the way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I misunderstood what you said at the beginning. I
thought you said when you saw Jack on Friday night, you were just about
to put the sign in the window?
Mr. MILLER. No. He asked me, the time I saw Jack, I told you about
5:30, because we were cleaning up.