we came in. I know we made detail early. Of course, everybody come in,
and I was in there early. We went to change clothes, and I don’t recall
just exactly what time we made detail offhand, but we were there early.
We were told to go right to our corners and what to do and watch out
for the safety of the President.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time on that day?
Mr. HANSEN. I am not positive. When I say I am not positive, I either
saw Ruby the morning before the President came in from Love Field down
Harwood to Main--I either saw him the morning that--I was going to the
city hall that morning before we went to the corner, or the morning
previous to that, I just don’t recall which. I have tried--in fact, I
talked to an FBI man about it that interviewed me, and told him the
same thing I am telling you. I don’t remember whether it was the day
before or the morning of the parade.
And Jack spoke to me. He was beside the city hall on Harwood
Street, and I started to go down the steps in the basement, and he
hollered, “Hi, Hans,” and I hollered, “Hi, Jack.” It wasn’t much of a
conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he on the same side of the street as the police
department, or was he across the street?
Mr. HANSEN. No; he was on the same side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you come to the steps from Harwood Street, you can
either walk down or up?
Mr. HANSEN. One of them goes up to what we call the wheel, and the
other goes down in the department itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Both the up steps and the down steps are converged
together at the sidewalk?
Mr. HANSEN. The down steps are narrow, about 10-foot wide, and the
steps that go up are about 40 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this sidewalk that stretches in front of the up and
down steps, where was it that you saw Ruby? Where was he standing?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, I can draw you a little diagram.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you a sheet of paper and you just draw.
Mr. HANSEN. Maybe that would help. This is the city hall. This is a
square building. This is Main Street right here and this is Harwood
Street runs right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you mark Harwood so that we know?
Mr. HANSEN. This is Harwood and this is Main right here. Now, right
here in the middle of the block, this is these wide steps that go up
right here. They go up this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have marked on there--I am going to sort of repeat
this for the record so that the person reading can understand what is
happening.
Mr. HANSEN. These are the steps right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on the Main Street side?
Mr. HANSEN. No; on the Harwood Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But on the Main Street side of the Harwood entrance? In
other words, towards Main Street there is a set of down steps that go
down?
Mr. HANSEN. About 10-foot wide. They go down like this, and underneath
the steps, and then you go in the doorway. You want to know where I saw
Ruby?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.
Mr. HANSEN. When I came across the street and turned to come down this
way----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, you are drawing on this map
that you were on Main Street, and you walked across Harwood Street
toward the police station.
Mr. HANSEN. I was walking east on Main Street across Harwood on the
sidewalk and at that time I turned south on Harwood to go down to the
entrance to go down in the basement of the city hall. As I approached
the down steps to go down to the basement of the city hall on the
Harwood Street side, I got about 8 or 10 feet from the north side of
the steps and there is where I saw Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody standing there with Jack?
Mr. HANSEN. At the time that he spoke to me, there was several people
up and down the sidewalk, and I think there was a uniform policeman
and maybe two detectives standing along there talking to one another.
I couldn’t tell you who it was, because I see it every day. I had no
reason to make a special occasion to remember it, but I do remember
there was somebody else along there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack standing talking to them or was Jack separated?
Mr. HANSEN. He wasn’t standing talking to them, but he wasn’t standing
far from them, or he walked up or was approaching there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of day would that have been?
Mr. HANSEN. It was in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you reported to work, or after?
Mr. HANSEN. It was before I reported to work. I was in civilian
clothes. I hadn’t suited out. I didn’t have my uniform on. I would say
it was probably between 8:15 and 9:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a regular time to report for work?
Mr. HANSEN. When I go to work on a regular shift, regular hours,
unless we are called in early or late, I have to be in the detail room
at 9:45. Now, that means I have to be there ready to listen to the
sergeant put out the poop on us and all of us come in anywhere from
8:30 until about 9 o’clock. Nearly all policemen come in like that and
go to the locker room and shoot the breeze before we get ready to go
out, about what happened the day before. So I would say it was probably
between 8:15 and 9:30. That is as near as I can estimate it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you speak with Jack?
Mr. HANSEN. Oh, I never stopped. I just kept moving. “Hi, Jack, I got
to go get ready,” something like that. And I said, “See you.” It wasn’t
much of a, like I say, it wasn’t what you call a conversation. Just
like a running conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that it could have been even 2 or 3 days
before the President arrived?
Mr. HANSEN. No; I don’t think so. I think it was either the day before
he arrived or the morning that he did arrive. Now, I can’t remember. I
would give anything if I could, because I know it would help you folks,
and I have thought about it since I talked to this FBI man 10,000
times. I am not going to say definitely what day it was. I can’t say it
and be right in here [pointing to self].
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first remember that you had seen him shortly
before the President arrived?
Mr. HANSEN. I didn’t even think anything about it until the FBI man
asked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the FBI man happen to come out and interview you?
Mr. HANSEN. He didn’t come out. He come in the city hall and I was
there. I don’t know whether he was interviewing everybody, and I
think I said something about, I am not positive whether it was him
or somebody said it. I heard so much going, it is hard to remember.
Somebody said something about they had taken pictures and had seen
pictures, and I don’t know whether somebody took a picture and he had
a picture that he saw him, or saw him come down the sidewalk. They
may have got it that way. And he asked me if I had seen Ruby, and I
sit there and thought about it, and he wanted to know if I had seen
Ruby that day or the day before, and I told him I had seen him on the
sidewalk.
I believe I said the last time, and I thought back and that is the
last time I saw him. I didn’t see him or hear anything about it until
I was home in Arlington and it come out on the radio. My mother lives
up there and I was at her home or in my home, and I walked up to her
house and she said, “Have you heard what happened?” And I says, “What
happened?” And she said, “A fellow killed Oswald.” Then that is when
I heard about it. I didn’t know anything about it until then. I don’t
think she even knew that I knew Ruby then, but when she found out I
did, she got all shook up and excited.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular thing that you did on the day that
you saw Ruby which you associate in your mind with the President’s
arrival, or the day before the President’s arrival?
Mr. HANSEN. I have tried so hard to think of something that would make
me know definitely which day it was. I have tried everything in the
world to think of something that would make me think of something that
would make me sure of what day it was, and I swear I can’t for the
world of me.
I have thought of everything in the world of what I did, and I just had
no reason to remember all this. If I had a reason, naturally that stuff
would roll right back to you, but when you have no reason to remember,
it is kind of hard to remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, after the President passed the place that
you were stationed on Main Street, what did you do?
Mr. HANSEN. I stayed right there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain on duty the rest of the day?
Mr. HANSEN. I remained there until 6 o’clock, about 10 minutes to 6
that evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do that night?
Mr. HANSEN. I guess I went home. I don’t even remember. Yes; I went
home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time?
Mr. HANSEN. At the time the President was shot, I was living at 1107
Mort Terrace, Arlington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work on Saturday?
Mr. HANSEN. No; Saturday and Sunday is our regular days off. I have an
extra job on Saturday. I think I come to work that following Saturday
at my extra job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working?
Mr. HANSEN. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I don’t always work on
Saturday, I worked three or four Saturdays, and then lay off and let
another fellow work. I work at H. L. Green’s, which was formerly a 5-
and 10-cent store. Now it is a dollar and 5-cent store. Kind of slow
down stealing, and I believe I worked there that following Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to--do you know George Senator?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes; I knew George.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see George Senator at any time on
November 22 or November 23?
Mr. HANSEN. I know I didn’t see him on the 22d. Now, I may have seen
him on the 23d. The reason I wouldn’t remember this--let me go into
this and clear it up with you all.
George sold postcards and novelties of various things to drug stores
and places, and he had a little red, I think it was, a Volkswagen, and
he replaced these postcards in the Walgreen Store at Main and Akard,
and also one in the Adolphus Hotel. He used to come around the corner
and we had a parking place where if you loaded or unloaded a truck,
could park, but not passenger cars. And George used to pull in and he
would service this rack with the postcards. It was very few days that
George’s truck wasn’t in there sometime during the morning peddling his
stuff around that end of town, so he may have been there the day before
the parade.
I wouldn’t have any reason to remember that particularly, because I saw
the truck so much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The day after the parade is what I am talking about.
Mr. HANSEN. The day after the parade would be Saturday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. HANSEN. Saturday I am not down on that part of town. When I come up
to H. L. Green, it is up on the next corner of Ervay and Main, and I
wouldn’t have noticed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember seeing George on Saturday, George
Senator?
Mr. HANSEN. I might have seen him. Now, he comes down there and eats
at the Eatwell Restaurant, and also to the Chefette on the side of the
Adolphus Building. In fact, I have had coffee with him. Didn’t have any
reason not to. But whether I saw him that day or not, I am trying to
remember whether I did or not--I may have saw him, but I couldn’t say
for sure. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of Ruby’s employees? Let me sort of run
down--Tammi True?
Mr. HANSEN. The stripper. Well, I know them when I see them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Tammi True on Friday or Saturday
before the President was shot?
Mr. HANSEN. Not that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Little Lynn?
Mr. HANSEN. I don’t think on Friday or Saturday that I saw any of the
strippers that I would recognize, or if they may have been out on the
streets in civilian clothes, but I just noticed them when they were in
their act, and they look a little different when they are out dressed
up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t work--you say your day off was Saturday. Did you
have occasion to go downtown at all Saturday night?
Mr. HANSEN. I get off--I may have. I may have. Let’s see. Saturday
night back when the President was assassinated, I believe they had
Saturday night fights. They were having them then on Saturday nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall--are you a fight fan?
Mr. HANSEN. I used to always watch Saturday night fights, and I know a
few nights that I watched them from Saturday to Friday, I used to go
down to a beer joint and watch the fights on every fight night, and I
don’t hardly miss a fight if I can help.
That and the Untouchables is about all I look at. If they were having
fights on Saturday night, I may have left my job after I got off and
went down to the place on Poydras Street. And if they were having the
fights--if they haven’t, I couldn’t tell you what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask specifically if you recall seeing Little
Lynn on Friday or Saturday?
Mr. HANSEN. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Kathy Kay on Friday or Saturday?
Mr. HANSEN. I don’t recall seeing any of them; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. HANSEN. Ralph who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Paul, Ruby’s financial backer. Ralph Paul.
Mr. HANSEN. I am satisfied I have seen him, but I couldn’t tell you
what he looks like, and I wouldn’t recognize him. 1 have heard of him,
but as far as knowing him or ever having coffee or talking to him, not
to my knowledge, no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. One other thing I would like to do is, I am going to
mark for identification a copy of the FBI interview report that they
prepared after talking with you on November----
Mr. HANSEN. Can I read that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to give it to you. I am going to mark it and I will
hand it to you and you can read it.
Mr. HANSEN. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a four-page report. It is numbered at the bottom
pages 31, 32, 33, and 34, and I am going to mark on the top of the
first page here, “T. M. Hansen, Jr., Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1.”
Take your time and read it and if there are any additions or
corrections that you want to make in there, feel free to make them.
Mr. HANSEN. This is a report that this fellow from Wisconsin took from
me, this FBI man?
Mr. GRIFFIN. His name is Dallman.
Mr. HANSEN. Yes, he is a nice fellow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you are reading that, I will dictate for the record
that I am also marking the diagram which Officer Hansen has drawn for
us. “T. M. Hansen, Jr., Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.”
Mr. HANSEN. One thing I want to call to your attention. On this second
page--you asked me about his Jewish background and here he says in
this statement, it says he considered Ruby to be a fairly emotional
individual and recalled that on one occasion at the Silver Spur Club,
Ruby hit a man who made a derogatory remark concerning his ethnic
background.
I believe that he has made a little error in here. I told him, this FBI
man, that this did not happen at the Silver Spur. I may have said the
Silver Spur, but I am wrong.
Just before President Kennedy was assassinated, Ruby was in the
Burgundy Room, which is located off the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel and
it is a cocktail room, and it is run by an individual, and there was
nothing said about his Jewish background. Well, there may have been,
too. I don’t know, but what some fellow, I don’t know who he was--I
heard this, and Ruby even told me that he knocked the hell out of him.
This guy got up and called him a queer, and Ruby really slaughtered
him. I believe he is capable of it, because I have seen him go and he
is a little fat boy----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same night he had his finger bit off?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes. I don’t recall whether it was that same night that I
saw him fight before, but when we pulled up, he had two down as big as
I, and he gave me----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the fight with the four?
Mr. HANSEN. That happened out in front of the Silver Spur, but this
is the year before this. This occurred in the Burgundy Room. I didn’t
witness this. This is hearsay, but I know it happened, because I heard
it from too many people.
I don’t know whether he called Jack a queer or a Jew queer, but Jack
made him a new set of teeth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are not sure whether this was in reference
to his Jewishness.
Mr. HANSEN. That is what I am trying to get over. I don’t know for
sure whether Jack told me what he said. I know he said he called him a
queer. Jack told me that out of his own mouth.
I don’t remember whether he said “He called me a Kike queer,” or
something like that. He might have said that, or maybe said, “Jew
queer.” I don’t recall exactly, but I do remember the queer part of it,
and Jack said, “and nobody would talk to me like that.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack seemed to be very concerned that people would think
that he was a homosexual?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your experience with him?
Mr. HANSEN. Just like I told this man, he never come out and asked me
direct. He kind of fished around.
I said, “Do you want me to tell you what I think is a homosexual” and
he said, “I didn’t ask you.” And I said, “Well, you are fishing. If you
want to know what I think, I don’t. I still don’t.”
And I wouldn’t say that about anybody I didn’t know. I would have to
witness an act or to see it about a man or have somebody I knew who
wouldn’t lie one bit have to tell me.
And if he was, which I have no reason to believe he was--I know being
a policeman I have come in contact with all kinds that play the female
role and the male role. I can show you several of those muscle boys,
big and stout and tough, what we classify as masculine type.
I have had ahold of several, and they are hard to get in custody. I
have no reason to ever say that about Jack. I have heard it said. I
have heard it several times said, but a lot of things are repeated that
are not so.
Like I say, at night, I worked that district. I would come by there
after everybody is out of his joint, and his front door would be open,
and he would be icing out his beer. I would walk up to the door and see
if the boy was doing anything and would go in, and several times nobody
would be in there with me.
He never made any motion that would be wrong, and as long as I knew
him, he never said anything to me that would indicate that in any way,
or anyone that I have known that knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that indicated to other people that made other
people say this about him?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, you asked me why I think somebody said that, is that
the question?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. HANSEN. Jack talked--as long as he lived, he never got away from
the Yankee accent. Nothing personal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think the Yankees have an accent. It’s the
Southerners.
Mr. HANSEN. Well, you know what I mean. Jack was kind of a talker and
he would be talking to you, and maybe he would stop and wouldn’t say
anything for a couple of minutes, and then he would start off and run
words, and it was hard to keep up like that. But he talked in a high
pitched voice of which a lot of homosexuals also have that tone to
their voice.
I think you will agree that you see a lot of people talk like that,
but there is indications when you see people talk, and there is no
doggone thing--he had that high pitched voice and if he got excited
or nervous or something, then that would get worse, that pitch to his
voice. He is the kind of fellow if, and of course, policemen are kind
of hardhearted--a kid, when I see them hurt, it hurts me, too, but I
can pick up a kid and it would hurt, but I wouldn’t cry unless it was
my kid. But Ruby was the emotional type of man, and I am satisfied, if
he had to do it, I am satisfied he would cry over something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen him cry?
Mr. HANSEN. I sure have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When have you seen him cry?
Mr. HANSEN. I have seen him cry, and fight and cry, and fight and cry
after. He would fight and cuss up a storm and cry. He is very emotional.
As long as the chips are down, he had to go, and then kind of break
down. That is his reaction. I have seen that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he be crying about?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, I don’t know. I never have cried like that. I don’t
know why he would cry, unless I guess we are all emotional people. Some
people control their emotions, and other people can’t.
We have all got a breaking point. Some of us go longer than others, and
I guess he is that kind that gives way and shows his emotions more than
other people.
I can’t recall offhand seeing a man that was as good a man as he was
physically. But as far as emotional, he would go from one extreme.
Ruby is a little potbellied man. They say he has lost a lot of weight.
Jack did calisthenics regularly. It was a religious thing with him. He
did so many setups and so many pushups, and he will tell you about it.
He did 125 pushups.
And I am satisfied, because when you get hold of him, he was a lot more
man than his size would indicate, and I am satisfied he did breathing
exercises, and he believed in that.
He used to get on me all the time and say, “You are getting too much
belly. You got to get that off.”
He had a lot of heart. I mean, that is my personal opinion. He had a
lot of heart.
I think the old boy--this is just my personal opinion in knowing him--I
think his background and the way he was raised and where he was raised,
I don’t think he had everything. Everybody was trying to kick him down,
and he had to scratch hard for everything he got.
And like I said, he is for the underdog all the way. If he saw somebody
that was down, he would reach down in his pocket and help. He is just
that kind of man.
Also, I think Jack would like to have amounted to something. He would
have liked to have been respected or looked up to. He would like to
help his social status.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever say anything to you that indicated that?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, not directly, but in conversation with him, he could
tell he would like to get up. He would like to be somebody. He was an
ambitious man, and yet he was humble. He was humble.
He knew in his own mind that he didn’t have the education to be where
he would like to be, but still he wanted to be there. That is the
impression I got from knowing him the short period of time I have known
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your telling us all that.
Mr. HANSEN. Well, that is just my personal opinion. That is the picture
I got of Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have known him since 1949?
Mr. HANSEN. No. I went to work in 1949. I have known him since--I am
not going to say positive. I believe he bought that place about 1950 or
1951, to the best of my knowledge. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a year would you have seen him since then?
Mr. HANSEN. Of--gosh, maybe--it would be hard to say--maybe I would go
2 or 3 months and may not see him, and maybe I would see him 3 or 4 or
5 times a week coming down the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there times when you would spend as much as an hour
with him?
Mr. HANSEN. I doubt if there would be that much time. I think about, as
long as I have spent with Jack would be--I may have sat and had coffee
with him 15 minutes.
I think one day he come over to the Florsheim Shoe Store. I had bought
some shoes, I had some made, and they were a width and a half sole, and
I was telling how good they felt on my feet. And Jack got to looking at
them and said, “They look good. I am going to get a pair.” And he went
in and had, I believe, at that time--I don’t know whether they had a
manager named Reed there or the man was named Kelly, I forget which was
there.
Anyway, Jack went in and they measured him for a pair. He liked the
ones I had on. They were dress shoes, and I tried to break them in on
the corner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you visited the Carousel socially, he would
come and sit down?
Mr. HANSEN. No. I would say maybe I would go in and stay an hour or 2
hours, but he was always busy. Maybe he would come over to the table
and say, “You want anything, Hansen?” And several times I went in there
and I would have a setup or something, and he wouldn’t let me pay, and
tell the girl, “That is on the house.” I don’t mind telling you that,
because I have been a lot of places and people do the same thing.
I never went with the intention--anywhere I go I can pay my own fare,
but sometimes people do that. I went down to the restaurant the other
night, carried my wife, and we had a nice dinner, and he told me “That
was on the house.” He wouldn’t let me pay for it. But like I say, I go
in there and eat, I guess I have been in there six or eight times, and
I have always paid. That is the first time it ever happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went to the Carousel Club, would Jack come over
and sit at the table?
Mr. HANSEN. No; he never fraternized with his customers outside of
being polite and greeting you and that. I mean, as far as coming over
and sitting with you and shooting the breeze, to my knowledge, he
didn’t do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, is there anything else in Exhibit No. 1
that you have been looking at that you feel should be corrected?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, there was something else I saw in here, and it was
about this day thing that we was trying to discuss about what day it
was, and I see here----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The last page?