experiences were?
Mr. DOWE. No tape recordings; no notes. The station has a 24-hour tape
recording going on of the proceedings that were on the air.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have them. We have copies of those tapes. Actually, we
have the original tapes.
Mr. DOWE. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first talked with the
police or Federal investigator about your experiences on Saturday?
Mr. DOWE. Yes. The first time I ever talked, I volunteered the
information myself, because they called the diskjockey hot line at that
time and asked what number this was, and I said, “This is Riverside
7-9316.” That was our hot line number at the time. I guess it was then.
But regardless, anyway, they called the hot line, because he wouldn’t
have answered it if they hadn’t. So, he said, “This is the FBI.” I
don’t recall the name. And he said, “We found this telephone number in
Jack Ruby’s possession, and we would like to know if you know anything
about it, or know why he would have this telephone number.” And I said,
“No; I don’t.” And he said, “Do you know anybody down there that he
knows?” And I said, “Yes; I know he knows Chuck Dunnaway.” And he
said, “Well, how can we locate him. We can’t find his telephone number.
We have looked for him.” And I gave them Chuck’s telephone number. And
I said, “By the way, for what it is worth, he called me the day before.
I don’t know if that would do you any good. I am sure it wouldn’t, but
if you are trying to put everything together, I wanted you to know that
he did call me on the telephone.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the police talked with you before that?
Mr. DOWE. The police have never talked with me. The FBI and Melvin; a
private investigator for Melvin Belli, I guess that is all. The police
never entered into it. As a matter of fact, it may be a good idea for
you to check with his private investigator, of Belli’s, because I gave
him a complete detailed outline of absolutely everything that I could
remember that happened, and it was all fresh in my mind at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Belli’s investigator before you talked
with the FBI?
Mr. DOWE. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To refresh your recollection, the first FBI interview----
Mr. DOWE. They were separated only by a week or so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI talked with you on December 14.
Mr. DOWE. I talked with him after that. I talked with the FBI first,
and they weren’t too interested. I am sure it was the FBI that I talked
with, and they said I gave them all the reports and everything of
what I knew had happened, and I wasn’t in there more than 5 or 6 or 7
minutes, and he didn’t seem like it was too pertinent at the time. So,
I gave them the information I had, and then I talked with this private
investigator, whose name I have forgotten now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you talked with the FBI at the police station?
Mr. DOWE. Yes. I guess it was the police station. I talked with a
gentleman whose name was Snooky, but I don’t remember his last name. It
is kind of an odd name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you, Mr. Dowe, what I have marked as
Kenneth L. Dowe Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This is a
copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent John E. Dallman as
a result of talking with you on December 14, 1963. It consists of one
page. I am also going to hand you what I have marked as Kenneth L. Dowe
Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.
Mr. DOWE. I talked to some FBI agents at the radio station. This was
not too long ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. This Exhibit No. 2 is a report of an interview
that two FBI agents had of you on June 3, 1964. The agents’ names are
Alfred C. Ellington, and Emory E. Horton. This report is three pages,
and the pages are numbered consecutively and at the bottom, 38, 39, and
40. I will ask you to take your time and read these over.
I want to know first of all whether or not the reports accurately
reflect what you said to the FBI on those particular dates, and whether
there are any changes or corrections that you would want to make.
Why don’t you start with Exhibit No. 1 and let me ask you, first of all
does Exhibit No. 1 accurately reflect there what you told them?
Mr. DOWE. To the best of my knowledge, Exhibit No. 1 is a pretty close
and accurate record of what I remember, and probably it would be better
to say between 2 and 5. It seems now it was around 3 or 4. It seems
that, because I have--but 2 to 5 is better, and I don’t remember well
enough to tell you it was at any specific time. That basically is as
well as I can recall what happened, on report 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, that is Exhibit No. 1. Let me ask you to sign that
up near the top where I have marked it. Right here is okay, anyplace
that is conspicuous.
[Mr. Dowe signs.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Returning to Exhibit No. 2; does that accurately reflect
what you told the FBI agent?
Mr. DOWE. No, not exactly. There are several things in here that maybe
were misconstrued or they didn’t understand probably, or I didn’t
understand the question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, to go through it and read the
portion that you feel is inaccurate, and then make any improvements
upon that portion that you want to.
Mr. DOWE. In the first paragraph, it says, “Dowe advised he had never
visited Ruby’s nightclub and had never personally seen Ruby since that
time.”
I don’t recall being asked any question like that. As a matter of
fact, there was one occasion when I was in Dallas before, about 2 days
before I left to go to Atlanta. Some friends took my wife and me out to
dinner, and as a joke, we went to see one of the girlie shows, because
my wife had never been there.
And we found out later, upon reminiscing, it was the Carousel, which
was Jack Ruby’s, so I have been there at one time.
It says, “He also advised he has never seen Ruby on the premises of the
radio station KLIF since the occasion he was introduced to him.”
That is true. I saw him that one time.
Now, down to paragraph 4, it says, “During this period, Ruby called the
station on three occasions. However, it is Dowe’s impression that Ruby
identified himself by name on only the last two calls.”
I don’t know whether he identified himself as Jack Ruby the first time,
or whether it was the last two times.
And another thing that I have stressed in each interview is the fact
that I don’t know whether he made two or three telephone calls, and it
repeatedly says three telephone calls in his testimony. And that is
only--I am just guessing. Two or three, I don’t know.
Over on what is page No. 39 it says, “It is Dowe’s recollection that on
the occasion of the second call, Ruby inquired as to whether any of the
newsmen from Station KLIF were in the vicinity of the Dallas City Hall,
and on this occasion that the caller identified himself as Jack Ruby.”
That is pinning it down an awful lot. I don’t recall that I remember
that much about it, really.
I advised the name Jack Ruby meant nothing to me, and inquired of some
other employee of the station, who at this time I do not now recall.
I wasn’t asked that, but I do recall Gary DeLaune is the employee I
asked the question, “Who is Jack Ruby?”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, how does DeLaune spell his name?
Mr. DOWE. Actually, DeLaune is only the name he uses on the air. I
don’t remember his real last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how it is spelled?
Mr. DOWE. I don’t know either. He is an entirely different department
and he is usually in a mobile news unit, and I rarely see him, and I
have never taken it upon myself to know what his last name is.
I might remember it tomorrow or something. I have seen it. It is
vaguely familiar. I would know if I saw it, but I have forgotten. It is
different. It is not a common name.
Then I see down here on also the same page that the telephone number
of the hot line at that time was Riverside 7-9319, which I remember it
was. It is not that any longer.
Also, this is something that I gave you at the same time in the
interview today, that may have been incorrect, because I remember
now, as stated here in this paragraph: “Dowe advised that on Friday,
November 22, 1963, it is his present recollection he would have been
on duty as an announcer at the station 3 to 7 p.m., and being a new
employee, he was present at the radio station from approximately 10
a.m. to at least 7:30 a.m.”
This being true, I gave you a statement earlier that I was on my way
to the radio station, and I thought it was about 10 after 1, because
usually that is the time that I go in. Now, I don’t remember if it was
10 after 10 or 10 after 1 but as I recall this minute, today, it was
more likely 10 after 1. I don’t even know what time the President was
shot. I have no statistics in my head. I can’t remember which was which
now. It’s gotten entirely too involved.
Down in the last paragraph it says, “Information previously furnished
by them was possibly misleading regarding the number of visits by Jack
Ruby in the premises of the radio station. However, he is pretty
positive that he has never seen Ruby at the station except on his
introduction to him.”
I can’t remember giving anybody any report saying I had seen him
several different times. I don’t think I did, but I only saw him one
time in the station. They had that earlier in the report to show that,
really, it repeats itself, but that should make that correct.
With those corrections, that is as well as I can recollect at this time
what is the actual truth of the matter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. To clarify this in your own mind, I think in the
first report they had written referring to “he has been in Dallas for
about 6 weeks, and after the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, he recalled
that an individual who stopped by the radio station on a couple of
occasions was Jack Ruby.”
Mr. DOWE. Apparently that was it. I might be misled on a couple of
occasions. What I was trying to say was, that he had been by there on
probably several occasions. I said a couple of occasions, but I only
met him once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine, I think it is clear. I certainly have no mistake
after listening to the testimony as to how many times you have seen him.
Is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you think we should
have covered?
Do you have any other information that might be valuable to the
Commission?
Mr. DOWE. Not a thing. It has been so long, that really after so many
reports, I hope I haven’t confused you, but I think this is it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you one further question, I think we neglected
to ask you at the beginning. Are you presently employed with KLIF?
Mr. DOWE. Yes, I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your spending
the time with us this morning.
Mr. DOWE. You are very welcome.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice meeting you.
Mr. DOWE. Come back and visit Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I may be back.
Mr. DOWE. It is a nice place. Thank you for letting me come this
morning. I am sorry I couldn’t make it this afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you please sign your name on Exhibit No. 2?
[Mr. Dowe signs name.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Thank you very much. Bye.
Mr. DOWE. Bye, bye.
TESTIMONY OF T. M. HANSEN, JR.
The testimony of T. M. Hansen, Jr. was taken at 1 p.m., on July 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again for the record. My name is
Burt Griffin.
Mr. HANSEN. G-r-i-f-f-i-n?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right. I am a member of the general counsel’s staff
of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. HANSEN. Before we begin the actual testimony, it has been our
practice to explain to you very briefly what this is all about. Then if
you have any questions that you want to ask before we swear you in, why
do that too.
The President’s Commission was established by virtue of an Executive
order of President Johnson, which was issued last year in November, and
also of the rules of a joint resolution of Congress.
We have been specifically directed to investigate into and evaluate
and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that had to do
with the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey
Oswald.
We have asked you to come here today in particular, because after the
FBI interviewed you, when they interviewed you, you indicated that you
had seen Jack Ruby on, I believe, November 22, and also that you had
worked in the section near his club and were generally familiar with
him. So for that reason, we have asked you to come here to testify and
tell us what you can about Ruby. But also to tell us anything else
that you might be able to provide on any of the other matters we are
interested in.
Let me also say this. Did we send you a letter asking you to come here?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes; I have it in my pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive that letter 3 days ago or longer?
Mr. HANSEN. I have been on a vacation, and it was given to me the 22d
by my captain in the traffic division, Captain Thompson. I just come
back from a vacation of 20 days, and I believe it was sent while I was
on vacation, and they set it up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see then, under the rules of the Commission, you
are entitled to receive this 3 days before we call you to testify. Are
you willing to waive that 3 days?
Mr. HANSEN. I am willing to testify. I want to help you any way I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask this as a formal matter, and nobody has insisted on
it. Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me before
we proceed?
Mr. HANSEN. No; I don’t have any questions at all. I will try to answer
anything you ask me as truthfully as I know how.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you please raise your right hand and I will
administer the oath to you.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HANSEN. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give the court reporter your full name.
Mr. HANSEN. I have an initial. It is T as in Tom, M. Hansen, Jr.
Initial T only.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Officer Hansen?
Mr. HANSEN. I have changed addresses since all this occurred. At the
present time I live at 1702 West Lovers Lane in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a member of the Dallas police force?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?
Mr. HANSEN. I went on May 30, 1949, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What division were you assigned in November of 1963?
Mr. HANSEN. When this occurred, I was working in traffic division, in
the traffic division about 11 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any particular assignment that month?
Mr. HANSEN. The day that the President came through?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you assigned?
Mr. HANSEN. I was assigned to Main and Akard, which is the corner I
have been working for 11 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that near the Carousel Club?
Mr. HANSEN. That is two blocks, approximately, from the Carousel Club.
The Carousel Club is on the corner of Commerce and Field, and I was
working at the corner of Main and Akard the day that the President came
through.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?
Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, to the best of my knowledge, approximately in 1950
or 1951, I believe, Jack Ruby ran a beer joint that is what it was, a
beer joint down here on South Ervay in the south part of town known as
the Silver Spur. At that time when he was running this place, I had
been working further south than that over in the colored district,
and I was getting moved around. I was a young man, and a new man in
the department, and I shifted around, and I went down on squad 41,
which the Silver Spur was on that district, and all up and down this
street at that time, that was one of your streets where you got your
characters. If they were out, they was on that street.
We worked that pretty heavy, and naturally you worked all the beer
joints and these places and dancehalls, and you get a little action
up and down there. And I had occasion to go in there and check those
places from the 400 block all the way out to Forest Avenue, and it
just happened Jack Ruby’s place was in there. We checked him just like
everybody, and that is when I first come in contact with Jack Ruby. I
don’t even recall when he bought the place, but that is the first time
I ever knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Since then over the years, have you had occasion to see
him from time to time?
Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes; I have seen him pass me on the street and he
speaks to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you recognize him?
Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes; I knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anybody else that you know or have seen around
Dallas who resembles Jack Ruby?
Mr. HANSEN. I imagine there is, but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you know of.
Mr. HANSEN. No; not that I could say looked just exactly like him. I am
sure that somebody looks like him, but I don’t know anybody personally
that looks just like Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, knowing him over the years, were there some
incidents in which you came to learn that Jack Ruby had a finger bitten
off?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes. I answered the call the night he got in a beef down
there with some fellows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was that?
Mr. HANSEN. That was at the Silver Spur, the same one I referred to
awhile ago. We answered the call, and there was a pretty good skirmish
on the sidewalk in front. I can’t think of this fellow’s name, its been
so long. There would be a record. The boy got a load, and I believe it
was this one or this one [pointing to fingers].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Either the second or third finger on his right hand?
Mr. HANSEN. I don’t recall just exactly which. I believe it was the
left hand, come to think about it. I believe I remember I was shaking
that hand, and I know it was hurting. The boy bit his finger and spit
it out in the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see the boy bite it off?
Mr. HANSEN. No. I got there after he did it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack with part of the finger missing?
Mr. HANSEN. Part of it missing, and the other part just hide hanging
down. And I run this old boy down the street that was the one that was
supposed to bite it off, and I finally caught him. We had a fight and I
got him handcuffed. That’s been so long ago, I don’t recall his name,
but I do remember his waving that finger and blood running, and he had
a pretty chewed up finger. It was just stumpy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever come to find out what the fight was all about
that provoked that?
Mr. HANSEN. Never paid much attention to that. We had stuff like that
that went on all the time. It was sort of customary. If it wasn’t a
finger, it was an ear or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack opened up the Carousel Club, how often did you
have occasion to visit the Carousel Club?
Mr. HANSEN. Well, I never visited the Carousel Club regular or
anything. I have been up there, and I would say during the time he had
the Carousel Club up there, to my knowledge, maybe I went up there 9
or 10 or 12 times, I don’t know, just if I had somebody come to town I
knew, or some boy I had known when I was younger, we would go up there
and watch the girls dance and maybe drink a beer, and have a drink or
something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In your acquaintance with Ruby, did you have any occasion
to notice any kindnesses that he bestowed on people?
Mr. HANSEN. I did. Yes sir; I sure did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of the things you recall him
doing?
Mr. HANSEN. I have seen Ruby, oh, I would say, three or four times,
maybe five that I can recall, give money to a woman. I mean some woman
or destitute woman he would see coming down the street. One time I
recall vividly, it hasn’t been too long before this happened, maybe 2
or 3 months, I recall we were standing beside the Florsheim Shoe Store,
talking, and he stopped and spoke to me, and there was a woman coming
down the street, and I believe she had three or four children. Anyway,
they were just bang, bang, bang, one right after another one, and
looked worse than the wrath of God, and a milk bottle and Ruby said,
“That is a shame.” And I said, “Yes; it is, Jack.”
And he walked across the street over there and stopped her, and I don’t
know what he said to her, I didn’t hear him, but in the meantime, after
he stopped her, I walked across over by there and he handed her a bill
folded up and I couldn’t swear whether it was a 10 or 20. I know it had
to be one of the two, because it had a zero, and I could see that on
the corner. He handed her that money and he patted her on the back and
walked back.
I have seen him several times previous to that give people that are
destitute and in need, give money, and I know he is bighearted. I
witnessed that, I know that. And I have heard a lot of people say that
he helped a lot of people. That is hearsay, but this other, I know for
a fact.
This one occasion--I have seen him several other occasions--one time
at the bus station he was in the bus station and this woman down there
had a whole slew of kids, about the same kind, and a bunch of us passed
a hat and got that gal $40 to get her on out to California, and Jack
kicked in on that, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him ever, or did you ever hear of his
bestowing particular kindnesses on his employees?
Mr. HANSEN. I have never seen this. Now I have heard that several times
employees would have hard luck of one type or another and he would send
them money. And he would put a jar or a can up on the bar and people
that knew about it, that knew the people, would maybe put in. There is
not a doubt in my mind that if they put anything in the jar, that it
went where it was supposed to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to talk with Jack or observe
him under any circumstances which would indicate how he felt about
being sensitive to being a Jewish person?
Mr. HANSEN. Jack was what I would say was a sensitive type of man. He
is an emotional man. He is for the underdog always. And since all this
happened. I have heard a lot of talk. In fact, he told me one time when
he was 7 years old he sold newspapers and he had a fight to stay on
the corner everyday. I believe he said in Chicago. He told me that out
of his own mouth. I know it was some eastern city. I am not certain
about the city. I am sure it was some eastern city. We have discussed
politics together. He has brought up--we have had coffee together and
he has talked about President Kennedy and about President Roosevelt,
and he thought they were both great men in American history.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen--would he bring this up on his own?
Mr. HANSEN. He would bring it up about what they had done for the poor
people and the underprivileged, and he thought very highly of both
parties, both Roosevelt and President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk with him at any time after
the Stevenson episode that took place here in Dallas?
Mr. HANSEN. I believe we did. Now, I am not positive. I believe we did.
I don’t remember too much about it, but I believe we did, something was
said or something about the discourtesy that was shown him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I started to ask you before about Ruby’s sensitivity to
being Jewish. Do you recall any incidents or conversations with him
about that?
Mr. HANSEN. No. I wouldn’t say he was sensitive to it. Now, you asked
me that--we used to tell a lot of jokes to one another. I liked to
kid around and joke. If I had a good Jewish joke, I would tell it as
quickly to Ruby as anyone or anybody else, and Ruby would laugh at it.
If he was sensitive in regard to it, he never let it show. And I would
never say anything to anybody that deliberately, with the intention of
hurting them due to race or anything.
I have had jokes told on policemen to me, and I figure if a fellow
can’t laugh at himself, there is something wrong with him. But I
have never seen him take a personal dislike to somebody for saying
something about a Jew, telling a Jewish joke, or something like that. I
have heard several said in front of him, and I have told him several,
and he never took offense to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I now direct your attention to the activities of November
22. Did you work in your official capacity as a police officer on
November 22?
Mr. HANSEN. The day the President was assassinated; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report to work that day, if you recall?