planning on going back to work when he opened the club, but before he
opened the club, he did this other thing, so she never did go back. She
told Ralph that she wasn’t going to come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about her husband?
Mrs. POWELL. Whose?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy’s husband?
Mrs. POWELL. She wasn’t married then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean she--the guy she did marry, this fellow?
Mrs. POWELL. That is what they said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean she was living with him as man and wife?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I guess they got married. They said they got married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he up there in Oklahoma City with her?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he stayed here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to how Jack got into the
basement of the police department?
Mrs. POWELL. No; but he could get in anywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that anybody helped him?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I don’t think anybody helped him. You just have to
know him. He is probably a lot different now than he was, but if
you had known him the way I knew him, and a lot of people knew him,
he would do anything. They would have a ball game here every year,
Texas-Oklahoma, and it sold out a year in advance, and all the tickets
are sold the day before the game and he said, “I am going to the
Texas-O.U. game.”
And I said, “How will you get in?”
And he said, “I will get in.”
And they are taking this guy off to jail, and as he passes by, the guy
hands him the ticket, and they are selling the tickets for $25 apiece,
and you can’t get them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to anything he told about
what he planned to do?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ralph ever say anything which indicated----
Mrs. POWELL. Ralph did not know. I know that Ralph didn’t know he was
planning to do that, or Ralph would have tried to stop him. I know
Ralph felt badly because Jack wanted to go out and he didn’t go, and
then he felt badly because he felt like if he had gone, maybe Jack
would have confided in him and he could have prevented it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Little Lynn?
Mrs. POWELL. She didn’t know anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because after she spoke to Jack, on the way home she
didn’t offer any comments or anything about why she thought he was
acting that way. She didn’t know any more than anybody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She hadn’t told you that she learned anything later after
she left you?
Mrs. POWELL. No; she hadn’t. I don’t know where she learned it from,
because I took her home, and they don’t have a car, and it was 12
o’clock and the buses weren’t running.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you if this diagram, which I have
previously marked as Exhibit No. 1, is a reasonably accurate diagram,
if you will sign that?
Mrs. POWELL. Do you want me to sign Nancy Powell or Tammi True?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which name do you like to sign?
Mrs. POWELL. It doesn’t make any difference to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you sign Nancy Powell.
Mrs. POWELL (signs name).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else, Nancy, that you think we haven’t
covered that might be of use to us?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. We’ve spent a lot of time here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the girl that Jack thought had class?
Mrs. POWELL. Bell Praperall, was the girl he thought had so much class.
And she came up to the club the last time I saw her, and she was drunk
out of her mind, talking terribly vulgar, like some streetwalker, but
this girl had class. She did. But Jack made the mistake of telling her
that she had class, and boy, I am telling you, she talked there around
like something else, but she didn’t end up with much class.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do one more thing. I am going to hand
you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964,
Exhibit No. 2. It is a copy of an interview that two FBI agents, Glenn
Silvi and Dave Byerly had with you on November 29, 1963, in Oklahoma
City. I want to hand it to you and ask you to read it and tell us
whether that is an accurate report of what you told them on that
occasion?
Mrs. POWELL (reading report). Well, I didn’t say that he had never
associated. We went into discussion about these carnival people, and he
had some dealings with some carnival people at one time. But I mean----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the sentence that says, “She said
Ruby was not, to her knowledge, a gambler, and to her knowledge, never
associated with carnival people?”
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because at one time he had invested in a carnival
show. They asked me if I knew this Slayton, and I told him I thought I
knew him. Down here it says I said that I believed Ruby formerly had an
associate named Joe Slayton. They asked me if I knew Joe Slayton, and I
said I thought I did, that I thought he was a partner or something at
one time. I never knew Joe Slayton at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, if you don’t have any other
questions in that, to sign that.
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t like the way they said that, “An acquaintance with
an exotic dancer.” Where do you want me to sign this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top.
Mrs. POWELL. Right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. POWELL (signs).
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell
Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 3. That is a 3-page document
which is a report of an interview that two FBI agents, Gary K. Wilson
and Joseph G. Peggs, had with you on November 24 in Dallas.
Mrs. POWELL. I sure wish I had a cigarette. I didn’t know really I was
going to be up here 10 hours. Very well, where do you want me to sign
this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign on the first page at the top.
Mrs. POWELL (signs name).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial each of the other pages?
Mrs. POWELL (initials).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you have any questions, Tammi?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for spending all this time
and coming all the way from Oklahoma City.
Mrs. POWELL. Well, tonight I will hate you. A little later I will be
real mad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you working tonight?
Mrs. POWELL. Sure. I didn’t get off until 3 o’clock this morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you going to be able to make it back?
Mrs. POWELL. I have to do three shows tonight. I will get back just in
time to go to work, and I have to do three shows. I don’t have to work
tomorrow, though, Sunday. I am going to rest up all day and go out and
see all the other people that have to work on Sunday. And I have to
write a letter to the Commission.
TESTIMONY OF KENNETH LAWRY DOWE
The testimony of Kenneth Lawry Dowe was taken at 9:45 a.m., on July 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again, my name is Burt
Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the
President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Routinely we explain to the witness before we proceed with your
testimony, a little bit about what is going on here.
The President’s Commission was established by virtue of an Executive
order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress.
Under those two official acts, the Commission has been directed to
investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee
Harvey Oswald, and to report back to the President on all the facts
that we find.
We have asked you to come here today in particular because you have had
some contact with Jack Ruby. Of course, we are interested in anything
you might be able to tell us about any of the events and activities
that we are interested in.
Under the rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the
Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition.
I might tell you also that under the rules of the Commission, you are
entitled to receive a 3-day notice before you appear here, and that is
a written notice. Do you know whether you received a notice from us or
not?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive that letter?
Mr. DOWE. Two days or 3 days ago. Three days ago, I’m sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, if we haven’t complied with the 3-day
written notice, are you willing to go forward anyway?
Mr. DOWE. Oh, certainly; yes, indeed; go right ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me before
I administer the oath to you?
Mr. DOWE. No; not a thing in the world. It is self-explanatory, really.
I am here to help if I can. I hope I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and I will administer the
oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give,
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help
you God?
Mr. DOWE. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state to the court reporter what your full name
is?
Mr. DOWE. Kenneth Lawry Dowe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Dowe?
Mr. DOWE. 4617 Samuell Boulevard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?
Mr. DOWE. That is here in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas at the time President Kennedy
was shot?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; I was. Just had moved here. I had been here about a
month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you lived before that?
Mr. DOWE. Atlanta, Ga.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me back off just a second. Would you tell us when you
were born?
Mr. DOWE. March 10, 1941.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing in Atlanta before you came to Dallas?
Mr. DOWE. I worked for a radio station for Esquire Broadcast, WQXI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?
Mr. DOWE. I was a diskjockey at the station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work there?
Mr. DOWE. Approximately 10 or 10½ months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any appointments before that?
Mr. DOWE. I was here in Dallas before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you work for in Dallas?
Mr. DOWE. Balaban Radio Stations, KBOX.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for KBOX?
Mr. DOWE. I was a diskjockey there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KBOX?
Mr. DOWE. About 9 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?
Mr. DOWE. Diskjockey in San Diego.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work as a diskjockey there?
Mr. DOWE. About 9 months. I was climbing radio markets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?
Mr. DOWE. I was with WABB in Mobile, Ala., and before that I was in
college at Hattiesburg, Miss.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What college was that?
Mr. DOWE. University of Southern Mississippi.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Mississippi?
Mr. DOWE. Yes, I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have met Jack Ruby?
Mr. DOWE. I met him; yes; I think the second day I came to town. It
must have been the second day, because I was being shown around the
radio stations, and I met him that day. That was when I came to KLIF.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with you?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; Chuck Dunnaway introduced him to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long were you in Ruby’s presence?
Mr. DOWE. No more than 3 to 5 minutes--3 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to hear about Ruby between that
time when you first met him and the time that you came in contact with
him after the President was shot?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did. I heard that he came around the station
frequently and that he was always inviting the diskjockeys up to his
club, and that if I were to go up there, he would probably give me all
the free drinks I wanted and be very nice to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever give you a membership card or pass to the
Carousel Club?
Mr. DOWE. No; not a pass. I don’t recall him ever giving me anything.
No; not a pass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other reason that would give you occasion to
remember your first meeting with Jack Ruby?
Mr. DOWE. None other than the fact that it was one of the first few
days I was there. It was on that occasion that I met him. And also I
was told that he was known around the station for procuring women for
different people who came to town; record promoters. And this was a
fact, and I was a little amazed at this, but nonetheless, that is what
I know about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you told this?
Mr. DOWE. At the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasion that you first met him?
Mr. DOWE. That is the first occasion, right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say procuring women----
Mr. DOWE. I mean that he would get you a date with one of his girls
in the club, or a girl that he knew or something, and I was told by
Chuck Dunnaway that this was a fact, and that it was his understanding
that several record promotion men came to town--record promotion men
are people who work for recording stations, and it is their job to see
that a record is promoted, and see if they can get air place at the
radio stations, and these people frequently come to town, and they have
very large expense accounts, and this was the reason I was told that
he furnished girls sometimes for these people and for other people,
different people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything said to you which would have led you to
believe that Ruby was getting any money off of this?
Mr. DOWE. No; not at all. I hardly remember meeting the man. I only
remember about what he looked like, and that his name was Jack Ruby,
and that he owned a club downtown. I was pretty much preoccupied in
other things at that time, and I just didn’t even--it almost passed me
by.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were at the time you first
learned that President Kennedy had been shot?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; I was driving down Central Expressway, and I was
listening to the radio station. I was about 2 blocks from KLIF, and we
had a bulletin on the air that said there was a possibility he may have
been shot, and they didn’t know and were checking further reports.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?
Mr. DOWE. Shortly after 1 o’clock, as I remember it now. I don’t know
exactly what time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you proceed to after you heard that?
Mr. DOWE. I went straight to the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work that day?
Mr. DOWE. I was there all day from that time until when I got off the
air about 7 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after you got off the air?
Mr. DOWE. I guess 1 went home. I usually do. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the Dallas Morning News downtown?
Mr. DOWE. No; I assisted the KLIF News reporter on that day, because
of the tremendous overload. I fed news stories to our radio on the
phone about the assassination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in contact with your newspaper people out in the
field on the 22d?
Mr. DOWE. I don’t know any of them except the newsmen that work for us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I mean.
Mr. DOWE. Was I in contact with them on the 22d?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. DOWE. On the 22d of November, you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The day that the President was shot.
Mr. DOWE. Oh, yes; I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, did you have KLIF reports at the police
station and Dealey Plaza that were called into you?
Mr. DOWE. No; I was strictly taking reports written by the newsmen and
calling other stations in the country and giving them reports.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were your newsmen getting their information?
Mr. DOWE. Some of them were probably covering the assassination. I
recall one was at Parkland Hospital, and some were inside the station,
and they were moving in and out all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the newsmen who were inside
the station who were passing information on to you, passing reports on
to you?
Mr. DOWE. I got one report from Glenn Duncan. I remember that Glenn
gave me one report; it seems that he did. The rest of them, I wrote
myself. And at that time, I think it could have been Roy Nichols,
because Roy, I believe, was at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t understand how you were writing the report
yourself unless you were in contact with somebody who was giving you
information.
Mr. DOWE. I was getting information off the wire service. We have a
wire service of reports that I heard. In other words, I would listen
to our report from the air, ad-lib them for the most part, and put
together any statistics I needed off the unit press wire service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got off the air at about 7 p.m., what did
you do?
Mr. DOWE. I went home. I would imagine I must have. Maybe I was around
the station for a little while, but I didn’t go any place besides the
station and home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to work the next day?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; that day I was--I came in, of course, early. It was
about 1 o’clock. I usually am there before 2:30 or 3, and my regular
shift is from 3 to 7. And that day I was there from 1 to 7. The next
day probably I must have gotten there earlier. I am sure in a situation
like this I would have been there earlier. What time, I don’t know, but
in between times I was only at the station and only at my house. The
next day was Saturday, wasn’t it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. DOWE. The next day was Saturday, so I came to work at noon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go right on the air at noon?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; we didn’t--there was no air work per se done by the
diskjockey. There was constant news coverage of the events that had
taken place, and we were just, I was just sitting there running the
control board monitor gains and things like that. Purely technical.
I was on from 12 to 6. That was my shift that day, same as today,
Saturday, 12 to 6.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to hear from somebody that you
subsequently believed was Jack Ruby?
Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did that afternoon. Honestly, it has been too long,
and I have told the story so many times, that I am really not sure, so
I am going to give you the facts as I remember them as of this moment.
At that time I got a telephone call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time?
Mr. DOWE. Four or five o’clock. It seems to me in the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time?
Mr. DOWE. Well, because I didn’t have but a couple of hours left. I
watched the clock constantly. That was part of my job. I give the time
every few minutes, or after every record. And it seems that it was
around 4 or 5. We have an awful large number of commercials to be
played on Saturday, and I was quite busy, and I don’t remember that
day having anything to do, and it was a long time, and I had been on
the control board for quite a while, so I remember that I had been
there for a while, and it seemed like it was around 4 or 5 o’clock. The
newsman was Gary DeLaune, or something. I have forgotten.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he at the time?
Mr. DOWE. He was in the newsroom sitting almost opposite me in the
newsroom, and the first call I got, this person who said he was Jack
Ruby said, “Do you know Gordon McLendon’s telephone number?” I said,
“No, sir; I don’t.” And he said, “Well, that is all right, because
I know it anyway, but I need to talk to him.” And I said, “Well, I
thought he was some crank that had gotten our hot line telephone.” The
hot line is a DJ number and only the personnel of the radio station
should know. And I said, “I don’t know his number.” Because we are not
allowed to give numbers on the air. As a matter of fact, I didn’t know
his number. And he said, “That is okay, because we are good friends.
I know his number, and I will call him, and this is Jack Ruby.” And I
said, “Fine: Jack Ruby, that is good.” And I put the telephone back
where it was.
A few minutes later I got another telephone call. I got two or three
that day, but I am almost sure that it was three. Anyway, in the course
of the next conversation or conversations, this person who said he was
Jack Ruby called again and said, “I understand they are moving Oswald
over to the county jail. Would you like for me to go over there and
get some news stories? Would you like me to cover it, because I am a
pretty good friend of Henry Wade’s, and I believe I can get some news
stories.” And I said, “Just a minute, let me see,” and I tried to
talk to Gary DeLaune who was in the other room, and I said, “The news
department is busy, Mr. Ruby, but if you want to help us any way you
can, we will appreciate it.” And I put the phone down and I turned on
the intercom system and I said, “Gary, who the devil is Jack Ruby? He
called me twice on the hot line, and I don’t know who he was, and he
said I am the guy that runs the Carousel Club down the street. I said
I remember I met him when I first came up.” He said, “He is just a guy
that calls on the telephone and he knows everybody in town and maybe he
can help us. That is good.” And I said, “Okay.” I had asked Gary if he
wanted to talk to Jack, but that was before the same telephone call,
but he was busy, and he said, “No, no,” like this. He was preoccupied.
So, that was when I talked to Jack and told him if he wanted to help
us, he could, and that is the last I heard from him. I found out later
that night that he came up and brought some sandwiches and things, but
I had been gone quite a few hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know it was later that night?
Mr. DOWE. One of the news people, I believe Glenn Duncan, said he was
there. This was after Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything from your own experience that would
indicate whether these telephone calls from Ruby came in the afternoon
before Ruby showed up in the evening, or whether the telephone calls
came in the afternoon after Ruby had showed up the previous evening?
Mr. DOWE. No; I don’t recall. I remember him telling me he had come
down and brought some sandwiches. I thought it was at night. Glenn
Duncan would know. He was there, at this time. I didn’t know. At
the time of the telephone calls, I didn’t know anything about any
sandwiches or anything about Jack Ruby. As a matter of fact, I didn’t
remember meeting him. I wasn’t very impressed, evidently, or I would
have remembered him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you learn that Ruby had brought sandwiches?
Mr. DOWE. After Ruby had shot Oswald and after they were discussing it
at the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that Ruby called
you on November 23, that is, Saturday, rather than on Friday?
Mr. DOWE. I am absolutely positive it was Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you sure it was Saturday?
Mr. DOWE. Because I was on the air about 4 o’clock that afternoon,
and there was nothing happening, and it was the second day. It was
after the assassination, so it must have been Saturday. If he was
assassinated Friday, he didn’t call me Friday, because he called me
Saturday. I remember going over to Chuck Dunnaway’s house Sunday
morning, and he said, “Ken, you should have been here a minute ago,
because Ruby just shot Lee Oswald.” And I said, “Who is Jack Ruby?”
And he said, “Some guy that owns a club downtown.” And I said, “Jack
Ruby; that is the guy who called me yesterday. You must be joking.” I
was amazed, and I remembered he had called me yesterday, because we
answered the telephone constantly. I get many calls, and I wouldn’t
have remembered if it had been any longer than a day or two. I would
have remembered, but at that time it just hit me, and I said, “That is
the guy I talked to yesterday afternoon.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. You remembered on Sunday when you first heard that Ruby
had shot Oswald, that it was the day before that you had talked to him.
Mr. DOWE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you answered the telephone on these couple of
occasions, did you at anytime give your name to Ruby?
Mr. DOWE. Probably; yes. I don’t remember doing it. I am sure I must
have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall Ruby calling you by name?
Mr. DOWE. No; he did not call me by name. He asked me, now I remember,
when I first answered the phone, he said, “Who is this?” And I said,
“This is Ken Dowe.” And he said, “Is there a newsman or somebody? This
is Jack Ruby.” And he talked like he knew me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the conversation did he use your name, or don’t you
have any recollection?
Mr. DOWE. I don’t have any recollection. I don’t recall him using my
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time do you think separated the first telephone
call and the last telephone call?
Mr. DOWE. I couldn’t honestly pinpoint it, by any definite number of
minutes, but more than a few minutes. Likely less than 15 or 20.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did Saturday night, the night
before Oswald was shot?
Mr. DOWE. No; I don’t remember what I did last Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain at home and watch television, or listen to
the radio?
Mr. DOWE. Let me see. Sometimes I did. I have forgotten. I think I gave
testimony to somebody what I did. I recall there was some peculiar
circumstance that--no; they asked me what I was doing Sunday morning,
and I finally remembered that I had gone to Chuck’s house because of
the Jack Ruby thing and all, and had gone to eat some chili with them.
But Saturday night, I don’t remember. Probably I was at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes of your experiences on the 22d and
23d and 24th?
Mr. DOWE. None whatsoever.