Chicago, because he knew that people, we were always teasing him about
picking people up and helping them out, so he got to where he would say
they were old friends from Chicago or someplace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were demonstrating the twistboard, did you sell
any of them?
Mrs. POWELL. We sold one to the guy that is the head of--what is the
biggest extract company that makes food extract?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunt Foods? H. L. Hunt?
Mrs. POWELL. No. What is it? They distribute it here. It is a big
extract company. They make vanilla and almond and all this.
The man’s name that we sold it to was the man who owned the company,
and he gave Jack, supposed to give Jack a case of rum extract or
something.
Jack was trying to figure out a way to serve drinks after hours, and
there is no way you can but this way you can serve rum and coke, and
you can put rum straight in coke and sell it, and there is not enough
alcohol in it that the law could do anything about it, and you can sell
it for 60 cents. That was my idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested that you sell it for 60 cents and mix the
rum extract?
Mrs. POWELL. The whole thing, so he was tickled to death this guy was
going to give him a whole case of rum extract.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever try that?
Mrs. POWELL. No, he never did do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were out at the Texas Product Show, did Jack ever
pick up any literature from H. L. Hunt?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any radio scripts from Life
Line?
Mrs. POWELL. No. What is Life Line?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack have any political discussions with
anybody?
Mrs. POWELL. No; never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember about this fellow Larry, the carnival
kid?
Mrs. POWELL. I remember I didn’t like him too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, because I thought he was kind of a bum, and I
don’t like bums. He is kind of a--like kind of gave me the creeps or
something, like some guy. I think he looked at you kind of funny. I
don’t know, I didn’t like him, and he got pretty bossy.
Jack let him sleep up in the place there, and he decided he was big
cheese, and he came back there one night telling me something that I
should do, and I really jumped on him and told him, “All you are is a
flunky and you are just up here to sweep floors.” So, I don’t think he
liked me too well after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever give you any of the reducing pills he was
taking?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any to the other girls?
Mrs. POWELL. No. I didn’t know he was taking reducing pills. He had
some kind of powder junk and you are supposed to put it in your coffee
and it will hold your appetite down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Diet pills is what I meant when I said reducing pills.
Mrs. POWELL. But I just saw this powder and he had that sitting on the
table by the coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any transactions he did under
the name of Banker Drugs?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard that? Banker Drugs?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a number of the girls that swore out
affidavits against Jack for AGVA, and they said in their affidavits
that Jack wanted them to mingle with the customers contrary to the AGVA
rules and so forth? What do you know about that?
Mrs. POWELL. That is not true. That is absolutely untrue, absolutely.
Jack had a hard time in that club because the other clubs were in
competition with him, and they have been here 20 years. Not near as bad
as Jack imagined.
He had this big thing built up in his mind that they were trying to put
him out of business, but really they weren’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t think they were. Why should they care. They have
been in business 20 years, and still doing the same things. Other clubs
help you. It is competition, and people like that, and people like to
go to other clubs in different districts.
Jack was upset about the amateur nights and I can see why, because the
amateurs were all working and they got $10 a night doing a show.
They had four clubs in Dallas they could work, and that was $40 a week,
plus all the daytime jobs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the four clubs? I know of the Carousel, the
Theatre Lounge, and the Colony Club. What was the fourth?
Mrs. POWELL. Vegas. He let the girls work at the Vegas to help them
out to get another $10. He didn’t need it at the Vegas. The place was
packed all the time.
They passed this rule that you couldn’t have amateur exotics any more
because it was knocking some legitimate acts out of business, so
Jack immediately--they sent wires to all the club owners, and Jack
immediately stopped.
But the other two clubs continued to have their amateur exotics. But
they said the girls had to join the union. You had to pay them $35 a
night. That is union scale for a night.
But they weren’t paying them that. They were paying them $10 or $15
just per usual.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the girls tell you?
Mrs. POWELL. I got a direct line.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the girls tell you how much they were getting
paid?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody in one of the clubs tell you?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. POWELL. I really don’t remember. I really don’t remember, but that
is what I heard, and I just know. Listen, I know these club owners.
They are not going to give their girls $35. They are not, because I
know them. They kept having their shows over there.
And I was in the office when Jack called the head man, I think, in New
York or Chicago. He went up, as a matter of fact, to New York and paid
a visit to him.
Then when I went to New York last year, he wanted me to go over and
talk to him. And one night in his office, I was in there when he made a
call. He was very upset about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us from your knowledge of Jack that in
the couple of weeks or months before President Kennedy was shot, Jack
was more excited and worried and concerned about his club and his
competitors than he had been at other times?
Mrs. POWELL. No. Maybe he was. He got to where he hadn’t been coming in
so much, being so worried about it.
He became more relaxed about the club. At first, he would never leave
the club. He was there all the time, but he got to where he would go
out and come in later like at 10 o’clock or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the feeling that in fact in the month or so
before the President was shot, Jack felt confident enough about his
club so he was out doing other things?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, not that he was out doing other things. Just that he
wasn’t coming in until 10. I think he had someone working up there at
that time that was running it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I think there was someone up there that was
kind of looking after the place, but he had the club pretty well going
smooth enough to where he could do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy Armstrong pretty able to run the club for him?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. We had all been there so long and we knew what to do
and when to do it and how to do it.
Really, Jack didn’t have much of a problem, because the kids had been
with him for a long time, most of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you described the episode with Jada and as a result
of it you mentioned that he felt people were against him, and you sided
with his competitors, and he was mad at Earl Norman and felt Earl
Norman was on the other side, and so forth.
Had there been other occasions when Jack had said the same thing, or
was this a new concern on his part that everybody was turning against
him?
Mrs. POWELL. No. Ever since I have known him, he had been that way. He
is the type of person that he gets an idea about something and I don’t
care what it is, if that is the way he feels about it, you can’t shake
his mind, and it doesn’t do any good to argue, because that is the way
he is.
And he never thinks before he does anything, never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How common was it for him to feel that people were against
him?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, it is very common, because I think--I don’t know,
because I wasn’t there, but from being around him and from knowing
Ralph as well as I do and other people that know Jack, I understand
that he had a pretty hard time getting up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From your own experience, I am asking you?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, it was very common, but you know, like all of his
life, he has had to fight for things, and he feels that in order to get
some place, he’s got to do everything, he is going to do it before
somebody else does it to stop him.
He has always had this in his mind that somebody was going to do
something to him, and he was going to beat them to the punch.
Does that make sense to you? Do you understand what I am saying?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted to get in there first?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t care how much money Jack had. If he had been a
millionaire, he wouldn’t have been one bit different. He didn’t have
any class, and he really wanted to. And no tact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had he ever said to you about his desire for class?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, now, you could tell the way he acted, and if you
were around him a great deal. Jack really wanted to be somebody, and
have class. He used the word class quite often, so I know it was an
important thing with him. This girl that worked up there, he said,
“She’s got class,” and he would go on about class. Everything had to
have class. And I think that is what he wanted, but he could never
have it, because Jack was just Jack. He has no tact. I mean the club
could be packed, and if he is standing over on this side and there is
something doing, he would holler, “Hey, you hit the door.” He is just
weird.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we will get back to this in a little bit. I want to
ask you some questions about your own activities on November 22 and
from then on, and we will maybe work back into this again.
Mrs. POWELL. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first learned that President
Kennedy had been shot?
Mrs. POWELL. I was at this guy’s house over here in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. You probably got his name down. I don’t know
which name you got.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know whether I do. Mike Ryan? Mickey Ryan?
Mrs. POWELL. That is the one, the guy that Jack picked up, the one I
was telling you about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go over to his house?
Mrs. POWELL. I had some friends come in from Old Mexico that morning.
There were five of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I didn’t know all of them. There was this one guy
I knew was a bartender in Tulsa, and when I worked in Oklahoma I--the
last time, he rode this far with me. He had a friend in Old Mexico, and
he was going to go over there for about a month or so. And I brought
him over to the apartment. As a matter of fact, he went down there, and
he had been gone about 2 or 3 months, and that morning someone knocked
on the back door, and this was him, and he had these other people with
him that I didn’t know. Like I say, my grandmother lives with me. And
he said, “I have some friends in the car and we have driven 1,500 miles
and haven’t eaten and didn’t have any money. They had been down bumming
around and could they come in?” And I said, “Sure.” And he gets out and
brings in a girl, a beatnik, which doesn’t bother me. My grandmother is
76, and she is a beatnik.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not your grandmother?
Mrs. POWELL. No; the girl is a beatnik type. She is from England or
something like that, I think. And his other boy comes in from New York
and all three people are from New York, and he brings this colored
guy. And like I live in the South, but I just figured that this is my
property. He was a very nice guy. He was studying to be a doctor, and
they had gone there for the summer. They came and I fixed breakfast and
coffee. And this friend of mine from Tulsa has a friend over here and
he wanted me to bring him over to see if he could borrow some money,
because he was going to ride as far as Tulsa, and give them some money
to get to New York. So, I brought him over here and went out to his
friend’s house and his friend wasn’t at home. His friend’s house is
very close to the apartment that Mickey was living in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living at that time?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. It is where Gaston Avenue--are you familiar
with the city?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I know the street.
Mrs. POWELL. It is where Gaston comes into, you know, you go out
Gaston--have you gone out Gaston? If you haven’t, I am not going to
go through this. It is where Gaston and Grand Avenue come together.
He lived on Gaston, but just off of Grand Avenue. It is a real pretty
apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was it when you got over there?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. What time was the President assassinated?
That is what time it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About 12:30?
Mrs. POWELL. That is what time it was, because when we went in, the
television was on, and when we went in, Mickey turned the TV off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your friends with you?
Mrs. POWELL. No; just Pete and I. His friends stayed over in my house
and we came over here alone. When we went in, TV was on, and Mike
turned it off, and we were sitting there talking, and Pete was looking
for a job or something, so he said, “I have this friend that Mike had
just gone to work in a bar out here at the Marriott or some place,
and he said he had this friend that might be able to help Pete find a
job. And he went to the phone and called him, and we were sitting in
the living room, and he asked this guy, and the secretary said that he
was outside. Anyway, I don’t know about that conversation, but all of
a sudden he said, “Oh, no.” He was going on something terrible, and I
thought what happened to his friend. So I said, “What happened to your
friend?” And he didn’t answer. Then he came out of the bedroom and he
said, the President has just been shot, he walked right to the TV and
turned it on, and we thought it was a joke, that nothing like that
could happen, it just couldn’t. And we were laughing and everything,
and he turned it on, and they had the TV cameras out where he was
supposed to make his speech. They announced it, and it was unbelievable.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mrs. POWELL. We didn’t remain very long. We just stopped by there for
a minute, and we left there and came downtown. No; we went to Parkland
Hospital. We were there long enough, because we found he was in
Parkland Hospital. And Pete and I went over to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at Parkland Hospital before it was known
that the President was dead?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; go ahead.
Mrs. POWELL. So, we went out there to the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, because I thought of another
question.
Mrs. POWELL. OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the driving conditions going out there to
Parkland?
Mrs. POWELL. Very bad. Well, they weren’t so bad. I came through town
to start with. We started down to get an extra, because we knew they
would have extras, and I wanted to get one to save for my kiddos.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did stop downtown?
Mrs. POWELL. Over here some place at one of the newspapers. We stopped
for just a second and ran into see if they had the extras out yet. No;
maybe we didn’t. I think we went directly to the hospital, because it
had just happened. Anyway, we went to the hospital, and it wasn’t too
bad going out, but around the hospital it was just terrible. But we
parked and we walked up and stood there, and the TV cameras were there
already. And I guess we had been there about--on the way out there,
they announced over the radio that the President was dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove out, did you go out the expressway? That is,
Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive out the Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was the traffic on Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. It didn’t seem to be too bad on the expressway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make normal time?
Mrs. POWELL. I drove very fast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you? Where did you get on the
Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I came through town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get on there the same way the President had gone?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I sure did, because Pete had never been here before.
It was his first time. Just when he got the plane to go to Mexico. And
I was showing him. We drove by the Depository down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long would it have taken you to drive out there?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don’t recall that it took any longer than it
normally would to drive out there. Of course, I slowed down through
town. We came down and I slowed down and we looked up at the window.
Of course, there was a lot of people, but they were keeping traffic
moving, and we went exactly the same route, because I pointed out the
building where he was supposed to make his speech. Then I got off, and
I wasn’t too sure where the hospital was, to tell the truth. I got off
and I found it all right, and there was just a lot of traffic around
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble parking when you got to the
hospital?
Mrs. POWELL. Sure. People were parking everywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you got out there after you learned the
President was dead?
Mrs. POWELL. They hadn’t announced it to the people there, I don’t
think. I know that I knew that the President was dead. The people
standing around the hospital did not know it as of yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you standing around the main entrance or the
emergency entrance?
Mrs. POWELL. I was around at the main entrance, I guess. The main
entrance faces this way? Like this is the hospital, and this is Harry
Hines, and this is the main entrance?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to draw a diagram. Put Harry Hines
Boulevard and the Parkland Hospital, and then draw it in such a way
that we can tell.
Mrs. POWELL. I will make the hospital here, and this is Harry Hines
here. I parked down here somewhere, and all the TV cameras--there was a
big truck, was like here with the cameras, and I stood just right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a “P” where you were.
Mrs. POWELL. I stood right here, and there was an entranceway here,
and, of course, there was a curb right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see President Johnson come out of the hospital?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I didn’t. I don’t think he was seen, was he? Did they
put him in a car with the curtains drawn? I know they kind of worried
about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the entrance that you were standing by, the entrance
that President Kennedy’s body was taken into?
Mrs. POWELL. No. See, I wasn’t there when they took him in or anything,
but I was standing here on this side. Now, this would be Harry Hines
running north and south; right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. POWELL. I was standing on the south side of the building, and I
think the emergency is around here. There wasn’t any way I could, get
close to the emergency, because it was just full of cars and people, so
I came down here to Hines and pulled up over a curb and got upon the
grass and parked down here. They brought the President from somewhere
around here, because this is a curb and a street all through here like
the front of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to have to stop you a minute, Nancy, because I
want to make what you have been saying clear to the people that read
the record.
Mrs. POWELL. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you at this point where you think the entrance
was that you were looking at, the entrance that you were near?
Mrs. POWELL. Right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the south side of the building?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes, it is on the south side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, you have drawn a line of some sort out of the north
side of the building?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, you told me to show you where I thought they brought
him out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. Now, would you make an arrow on that and
then along the arrow that you have drawn, indicate the place from which
you think President Kennedy’s body was taken? Would you write something
to the effect, “Place from which President Kennedy’s body was taken”?
Mrs. POWELL. But I didn’t see it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have some idea. I am trying to get some idea in
case you are not clear really on what entrance this is.
Mrs. POWELL. I am clear on the entrance. I know it is the entrance on
the south side, and I know that is where a lot of reporters and people
were going in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. While you were standing there, at any time did you
see Jack Ruby around?
Mrs. POWELL. No. Do you want me to do this now? This is a curb.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I think it is good enough to leave it the way
it is, and I won’t ask you to mark President Kennedy’s route.
Mrs. POWELL. I know where he came from, and it apparently must have
been from here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The north side is what you are pointing to?
Mrs. POWELL. I was standing here, and when they came out, they had him
in a hearse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the hearse come by?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. It came from around the end of the building like
this, and they came down this way through here and down Harry Hines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mark some arrows on that line so that we know it is the
route of the President.
Mrs. POWELL. This is Harry Hines, and they went down this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark it for you so I will show you what I want. I
am putting arrows along the route to indicate where it was, and I am
going to mark this, “Route of President Kennedy’s hearse.”
I am going to mark this piece of paper that we have been working with
here as “Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”
How long did you remain out at Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. POWELL. Till they brought his body by.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. What I thought was his body. I mean, I didn’t see in
there, but I know it was a black hearse and the curtains were drawn,
and they had a motorcade, so I know it must have been him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. Then I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?
Mrs. POWELL. I went back to Fort Worth, because my grandmother was
very, very fond of the President, and she was pretty old, and I knew
she would be very upset.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your friend back with you?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?
Mrs. POWELL. Pete.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his last name?
Mrs. POWELL. If you hadn’t asked me, I could have of told you. Devoire,
D-e-v-o-i-r-e [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said he was from Tulsa?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does he do for a living?
Mrs. POWELL. He is a bartender.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was he working in?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, he was working in Enid whenever he went to Mexico,
and I don’t know the name of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are working up in Oklahoma?
Mrs. POWELL. In Oklahoma City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your friends back at your grandmother’s house when
you got back there?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got back to your grandmother’s
house?
Mrs. POWELL. My grandmother was cooking dinner, and she was really very
shaken up about it. She was in tears practically, so I went in and we
sat down and we ate.
We got up, and this girl did the dishes, and, of course, we discussed
it at great length, and we all watched TV, I would say, until we got
sick, just listening to it any more. I thought I was going crazy, but
we sat up and watched TV until late that night. Then we went to bed,
and the next day we watched TV again. They left the next day in the
afternoon. They went on. But they stayed overnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after they left?
Mrs. POWELL. I didn’t do anything. Then I just did normal things that I
do when I am at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t you go into Dallas Saturday night?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes, I did. Why did I come over here that night? I had
some reason for coming over, and I don’t know what it was. I forget
what it was now.
I had to see Pappy, this agent here. I was going out of town. I know
what it was, I was leaving on Monday to go to Oklahoma City to work,
and I needed some money to go up there on, so I had to come over and
got money from Pappy to go, and I called Little Lynn.
She used to ride with me until I quit, and I called her and told her
that I was coming over here, and if she wanted to ride, she could,
because she had to ride the bus. And she said she would like to ride,
so I went by and picked her up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you pick up her husband also?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you pick her up?
Mrs. POWELL. She was supposed to be at work at 9 I think, so I must
have picked her up around 8, between 8:10 or 8:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. We came over and went to the Colony Club, and Pappy
wasn’t there, so I went over to the--no, first of all, we went to the
Carousel. When we got there, it was closed, and the other clubs were
open.