and went to Oklahoma City. No; I went to Tulsa, Okla., and worked 7
weeks, and then came back. I don’t think I went back with him then. No;
I came back a week or two, and then I went back up to Oklahoma City,
and I stayed 6 weeks last summer. Then I went to Kansas City for 2
weeks last summer also, and then I came back. August, I was up here.
I was up in Oklahoma and it was awfully hot up there. And when I came
back from Oklahoma City, after August, I went back to work for him. Are
we up to this year yet?
Mr. GRIFFIN. We ought to be up to the fall of 1963. Let me answer this
telephone. Let me interrupt you here and ask you, is there a difference
between an exotic dancer and a striptease dancer?
Mrs. POWELL. Now, you have goofed me up. The difference between them
is, an exotic is like a belly dancer, comes out on stage with veils and
panels and things, like the dancer of the seven veils. And a stripper
comes out fully clothed and takes it off. But an exotic doesn’t take
anything off. It is like, I don’t know, Egyptian or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dancing do you do, striptease, or exotic?
Mrs. POWELL. A lot of girls would prefer to be exotic, but as far as
I am concerned, it is a dirty old stripper. I have a friend that is a
comedian that wants to team me with him, and I think I will.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think before we digress here, Mrs. Powell, we were
trying to figure out when it was that you started to work for Jack Ruby
again just before he shot Oswald?
Mrs. POWELL. Let’s see----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated something about being in Kansas City?
Mrs. POWELL. I get confused on these things, because when you just skip
around, you don’t--let’s see, did we establish I was working for him in
January of----
Mr. GRIFFIN. New Year’s Eve of 1963 you said you were working for
him----
Mrs. POWELL. I lived over here for a while in the same apartment
building he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live on Ewing Street?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 223 South Ewing Street?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t move there until about the first of the year?
Mrs. POWELL. We moved in at the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living with him?
Mrs. POWELL. No. I wasn’t living with him, the ugly thing. I had an
apartment. I presume you have seen his apartment and everything and
know about it. My apartment was right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Across the hall?
Mrs. POWELL. Actually, I was away down here in the corner, and you had
to walk around this corner, and my apartment was right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living there alone, or with somebody else?
Mrs. POWELL. I lived there part-time alone, and this other girl that
danced here was my roommate for awhile when she was in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. POWELL. Raven.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live there before you went to Oklahoma City, or
after you went to Oklahoma City?
Mrs. POWELL. That was the last time that I quit, was while I was living
there, and I have forgotten when it was.
Now, in January I lived there. I moved in about the same time he did,
because the apartment was a brand new building, and I was living down
on Ewing, but further down, and there were a bunch of people living
there that were kind of loud and it wasn’t a very good environment, and
Jack didn’t think I should live there, and they were always fighting
and calling the police, and he looked at this apartment, and he was
going to move in.
He was real enthused about them, they were so great, and he got me to
go down there and look at them, and I got an apartment there, because I
don’t like to stay by myself. I am real scary. I always think somebody
is going to follow me home and do something to me, and I wanted to live
in the same building as Jack so if I had any trouble, I would get him
to help me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s go back to last summer. Were you working for Jack
last summer?
Mrs. POWELL. Last summer; no. Last summer I was up in Oklahoma City, so
that means I came back and went to work for him, right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You moved into that apartment sometime the early part of
1963, and then when you went to Oklahoma City, did you move out of the
apartment?
Mrs. POWELL. You see, I quit the last time. It was while I was living
in the apartment building. That is when I quit, and I didn’t come back.
No, I came back one more time, and I left just 2 days before this
happened, from the Carousel, then I was gone, and I came back after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you quit Jack on November 20, that is 2 days before
the President was shot----
Mrs. POWELL. That was the last time I quit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time, were you living at South Ewing?
Mrs. POWELL. No. I quit before then. I was living on South Ewing, and
there was a girl working up there that is married then to the emcee,
and they were always, that doesn’t work out in show business too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?
Mrs. POWELL. And his wife, Shari.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she working there as a stripper at Jack’s place?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. There is always a lot of confusion when they were
around. They were kind of tough. Really, they are. They think they are
great stars, and they cause trouble for other people, and I don’t need
it, because I can work, and I didn’t feel like I could take it.
But anyway, we had some trouble, and I quit. This must have been in
March, because I remember the weather wasn’t bad. It was still cool,
but it was like the summer, sun was shining.
It was March or April. Let me think, March or April. Must have been
March or April, I guess. I don’t really know. I can’t remember.
But anyway, I quit, and I told him I would never work up there again as
long as they were there.
And I worked some place else. I guess I went to Tulsa. I guess that is
where I went. I worked some place.
I came back. It was in December, the month of December I worked in
Oklahoma City for 4 weeks of this past year, and I came home for
Christmas. And he called me. He has a partner, wanted his partner to
ask me to come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul.
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. But Jack didn’t want to. Jack and I really had it all
the time. I don’t know, either Ralph asked me or he did, but anyway, I
went back. I told him I wouldn’t work with them, so he fired this Shari
so I would come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you came back?
Mrs. POWELL. Wait a minute. I was up there in December, and New Year’s
Eve I worked in Fort Worth for the Skyliner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which year, New Year’s Eve?
Mrs. POWELL. This past New Year’s, this year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1964. You are on beyond the assassination at this point?
Mrs. POWELL. Am I really? I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you are.
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes, yes; I am. Yes; I am way beyond. Sure that had
already happened when I was in Oklahoma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Jack around March of 1963?
Mrs. POWELL. Wait a minute. I know I went to Tulsa, and I worked the
last 2 weeks in March. I stayed in Tulsa in March, and I worked 2 weeks
in Kansas City, and came back, and stayed in Tulsa, until June 2, and I
came home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you come back and work for Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Wait, don’t rush me. That was last summer. How did I get
up way past the assassination? It was last summer. Well, I worked for
Jack up until 2 days before the President was assassinated. I closed on
Tuesday. It happened on Thursday, didn’t it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday.
Mrs. POWELL. Then I closed on Wednesday, because it was just 2 days
before the President was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to quit?
Mrs. POWELL. I got mad at him. Let me see if I can remember what it was
about now. I don’t even remember--something. He always had something
going, you know; but I got mad and quit for some reason.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any advance notice?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes; I gave him notice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much notice?
Mrs. POWELL. A week’s notice. Under union contract rules, you have to
give the employer a week’s notice, and he has to give you 2 weeks, if
you are booked indefinitely like I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the AGVA rules?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time?
Mrs. POWELL. I was living in Fort Worth then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack pay while you worked for him? What was your
salary?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, it was $110 a week, I think, or $115 he paid me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack meeting the union scale?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. See, in classified clubs like A, B, and C clubs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s classification?
Mrs. POWELL. I think it was classified as a C club, because he had
connections. The C clubs don’t have to pay as much as the class B, or A
club would have to pay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Jack’s reaction to your having quit him?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, he always acted like he didn’t care, like he was
glad to get rid of me, and then he called me to come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on Jada?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually witness that episode?
Mrs. POWELL. The whole thing. As a matter of fact, I thought he was
going to turn and jump on me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened?
Mrs. POWELL. Let’s see, she was pulling her pants down, and that is
against the law. She could close him up. And he got real excited. He
was real excitable and he was running back and forth, and he didn’t
know what to do, so he just turned the lights out on her, and she just
kept on dancing. Then she came off stage, and he got this idea in his
mind, that she was--she had been doing this ever since she had been
there, and all of a sudden he just noticed it. He had this idea in his
mind that she was going to try to get his club closed down, and she was
doing it to close the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get that idea?
Mrs. POWELL. How did he get any of his ideas. He just got weird ideas
about them. Like me, for instance, ever since the day I went to work
for him, he never trusted me. He liked me and he had a lot of respect
for me, but he said I was a conniver and I was a sharpie, and he said I
was always thinking, trying to figure out a way to rook somebody out of
something. I don’t know where he got that impression, because I am not
like that at all.
I would walk up to him in the evening and say, “Helloooo Jack,” on
purpose, because he had this weird reaction, and he would look at me
and say, “What do you want?” Because he thought I wanted something. And
one day I said, “What have you got that I would be trying to beat you
out of?” He couldn’t think of anything, but it didn’t change his mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you sort of teased him a bit?
Mrs. POWELL. I understood Jack and we got along great. We had fights
and I would cuss him and he would cuss me, but he liked me for that. He
never liked girls he could push around. He would much rather holler at
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jada was in cahoots with your competitors in
any way?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I think he was getting ready to let her go anyway,
because she had been there quite awhile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because she had been there quite awhile and wasn’t drawing
much business. At first she drew a lot of business, but she was there
for a long time and weren’t doing much business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is the reason that she took this extra
license in the middle of her act, because she hadn’t been drawing much
business?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. She really had been doing it--she came from
New Orleans, and the first night she did her act, she was awful.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she do?
Mrs. POWELL. She was pulling up her strings, and they did things like
that in New Orleans, and the girls don’t work like that, so Jack had
her to clean her act up about three times so he wouldn’t get in any
trouble. But she loved publicity and would love to have been taken to
jail for it.
Believe me, I love and adore her. I think she has everything on the
ball. She is flashy and she is what a stripper should be if they are
going to be one, but she would do anything, just anything, and she
went out with every reporter in town to get her name in the paper,
from sports writers on up. And Jack got the word, or somebody that she
was going to get arrested, because when she gets in town, she wants
everybody to know she is in town, and if she has to go to jail to do
it. She is smart, because she is clever. Because people come to see
her for curiosity. I don’t think that was it. He just happened to
notice her doing it, and I don’t really know. I think they had a little
trouble or something, and an argument. They argued a lot too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that she was pulling her pants down?
Mrs. POWELL. She wasn’t pulling them down. She wore these very brief
flesh-colored things underneath the G-string. She took the G-string and
was pulling this front out from her body.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She would take off the G-string and have the flesh-colored
pants on?
Mrs. POWELL. She had her hands like this and was pulling them out or
pulling them up, and he saw her, and he just turned the lights out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But this is something you had seen her do previously?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, I had seen her, sure; but he has a way of not seeing
everything. He is always so busy. I remember one night on the stage I
went out and I was very mad, and I stomped around and acted real silly
like I had never been on the stage before, for his benefit, and I do
15 minutes, and I was waiting for him to come back and jump on me, and
he didn’t even see it, and he was right there in the club. He doesn’t
observe everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after he turned the lights out on Jada?
Mrs. POWELL. She went on and kept dancing in the dark. And she came
off and was hollering and screaming, and he went back immediately and
jumped on her and said she was trying to get the club closed. And they
had a big row and he fired her. He told her she couldn’t work the rest
of the night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten or strike her in any way?
Mrs. POWELL. No: he didn’t hit her. I wouldn’t doubt that he might
have. I wouldn’t put it past him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen him hit any of the employees?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had any of the employees tell you that he
hit them?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I guess I call him everything in the book, and he
never made an attempt to hit me. I argued with him more than anybody up
there, and he never made an attempt to hit me. He never even threatened
me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you had a little protection. You were friendly
with his backer?
Mrs. POWELL. That wouldn’t stop Jack. He doesn’t care. I mean, if he
felt like doing it, he would do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit any customers?
Mrs. POWELL. Once I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that episode?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; Ralph was up there, and Ralph and I were sitting by
the door, and this guy came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Ralph Paul?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; and this guy came in and he sat down in a chair
behind me, and he was rubbing my back, and I told him to take his hands
off of me, and so he wouldn’t stop, and Ralph, you know Ralph--my
hero--he told him “OK, that is enough. Get out of here.” And he was
pushing him out, and Jack was in the club and saw him, and he came
running over and grabbed the guy and was pushing him out, and he got
very upset because he thought quite a bit of Ralph, and the guy took a
swing at Ralph. When he did, Jack just hit him. He hit him and pushed
him out and closed the door where he couldn’t come back in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a pretty strong fellow?
Mrs. POWELL. From what I understand, he is pretty rough. I have never
actually seen him fight or anything. He is actually pretty good
natured, really. I have seen him argue with his best friends and tell
them to get out of the club and don’t ever come back. He and Earl
Norman got into a fight one night up there too. And he and Earl were
good friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a fight or an argument?
Mrs. POWELL. He hit him, but it was Earl’s fault.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened there?
Mrs. POWELL. Earl came in the club, and he drinks quite a bit, and he
used to work up there as an emcee, but he drinks a lot, and when he
gets drunk--well, we better go back to Jada, because this happened over
that deal. On that night, Jack told Jada she couldn’t finish out the
night. She was going to do it anyway, and she called the union man so
she could finish doing her last two shows. And the union man came up
there and he talked to them, and he told Jack to let her go ahead and
finish. So, they got together and decided to let her finish the week
before she left.
Then they got into it again over something, I don’t know, and she says
that he threatened to hit her and all this, so the next night she is on
stage working and the police came up there, and she had got a warrant
for his arrest for threatening her or something, I don’t know, filed
charges against him, and they come up and took Jack and Jada before the
night judge, got him out of bed or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there and did you actually see the police come up
and get Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; they took Jada with them. In the meantime, she had
put all her stuff and packed it away in trunks and bought this paraffin
that you seal things with and seal all her things up so if Jada missed
anything--she said he threatened to burn her wardrobe also. And he went
down to the police station and went before the judge, and they were
gone about 2 hours, and he came back. The reason they went is because
Jack didn’t want to pay her for the week. He wanted her to leave, and
she got her money, $250. The judge gave it to her. And he came back and
was furious, and he said she went down and told the judge all kinds of
bad things about all of us, and he got the other girls worked up, and
they were going to go to the motel where she was staying and do all
kinds of things. And I am sitting there. I am pretty levelheaded, and
I like Jack, but he likes to fabricate, and I couldn’t believe that
she said all the things he said she did. Anyway, if she did, she was
telling the truth. She said, “I told the judge I pulled my pants down
too, so I did.”
I took up for her. I said, “Now, when you are calling her all these
things, you go out and jump on her, and that is not going to make
you any better than she is.” He got mad at me because I didn’t want
to go out and jump on her. He felt like I was against him, so he was
hollering at me and said, “I used to have respect, but I lost all
respect. He thought I was stuff and tough.” And I don’t know, so I
just left the club. I said, “I don’t even want to talk to you.” I went
inside and I went back in and Earl Norman came over, because he is on
the board of directors. The union man couldn’t come over, and he sent
Earl over there to stay there until Jada got her things and got out, so
there would be a representative there in case anything happened. And
she filed a claim. Jack thought Earl was against him also because he
came over there.
So, he was in the club, and Jack started hollering at him and told
him--first of all, it started out as a nice conversation, and Earl is
great about quoting you new rules. He knows all of them, and he goes
by the book, and especially when he is drinking. That is all he can
talk about is union rules. He drives you crazy sometimes. And he was
explaining to Jack, Jack said, “You are against me. You are against
me.” And he said, “No; I am not. I had to come over, Tom Palmer told
me to, and it is my job as a member of the board.” And Jack told him
to get out. He said, “I want you to leave. If you don’t, I am going to
punch you in the mouth, so you get out now.” And he was walking the
floor. He was really, very, very angry. So Earl tells him, “You better
not ever hit me, or I will get a gun and come back and shoot you.” He
shouldn’t have said that. Jack went to pieces and he smashed him in the
mouth, but Earl wasn’t going to give up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Earl leave at that point?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he kept explaining and mouthing off, but Jack didn’t
hit him any more. The band was there and I was there. We had closed up
already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack send anybody out to get a gun?
Mrs. POWELL. No. It wasn’t Jack that made that statement. It was Earl
Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was Earl Norman who said he was going to get a gun and
shoot?
Mrs. POWELL. Earl said if he ever hit him, he would go home and get a
gun, and Jack hit him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack did hit him?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I don’t blame him much. He provoked him, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Earl do? Did he leave?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he kept on, and they got Jack calmed down, and Earl
kept on, because when he drinks, he doesn’t have good sense, Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when Earl Norman came back to the club
about a week before President Kennedy was shot and Jack wouldn’t let
him in? Do you remember that incident?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, well, he had come up a lot of times and Jack wouldn’t
let him in. He has been barred from there a hundred times. He would
have an argument, and Jack would bar him. One time they ran him off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to follow it from the time of this episode with
Jada.
Mrs. POWELL. He came back after that. Jack never stayed mad at anyone
for a long length of time. He would throw him out and tell him, “Don’t
come back,” but Earl would call, “Is it OK if I come up,” or he would
come to the door and ask if it is all right, and I don’t remember Jack
not letting him in. But a lot of times it was depending on how drunk he
was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe any kindnesses or anything that Jack
showed?
Mrs. POWELL. He was very kind to a lot of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any specific instances of kind acts?
Mrs. POWELL. He was always picking people up off the street or
something, that didn’t have a place to stay or any money or a job or
anything. He just had all kinds. Well, he had this one guy who used to
sleep in the club. We had three or four guys sleeping in the club every
night because they didn’t have a place to stay. And he would give him
$2 or $3 a day, and they were sort of flunkies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the last fellow, Larry Crafard?
Mrs. POWELL. Isn’t he kind of a carnival guy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the fellow.
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about Jack’s twistboard?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. I demonstrated his twistboard here in the building
with the exhibits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Texas Product Show?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you go out to demonstrate?
Mrs. POWELL. Just once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, about 30 minutes to an hour. Jack called me, and I
went there before work one night, and then I went home with him and he
cooked lamb chops.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, get up on the board?
Mrs. POWELL. There was another boy, he had picked up by the name of
Tommy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had another fellow?
Mrs. POWELL. At this time that I was demonstrating the twistboard,
there was this boy living with him. His name was Tommy something, and
he was staying with him the last time I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Living in Jack’s apartment?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. Because they came out there, and we went to the
apartment, and Jack cooked dinner for us all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a fellow was Tommy?
Mrs. POWELL. About 25, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he look like?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I think he played--he told me he had played
baseball. He looked like a baseball player. Baseball players all look
alike, sort of athletic type, but not musclebound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how tall?
Mrs. POWELL. About 5´ 11´´, had brown hair, and I think he was from
Iowa or someplace like that, a really nice kid. And he had a job; he
was working though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he working?
Mrs. POWELL. Gee, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Tommy been living with Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. He was living with him when I came back for
work the last time, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he move out?
Mrs. POWELL. You got me, I don’t know. I mean, I didn’t keep up with
all of these guys. He just picked guys up.
One night he had this boy up there, and he said, “You are going to Fort
Worth. I want you to give this friend of mine a ride.”
And I said, “OK.” He says, “He goes to college at TCU, and you can drop
him off.”
And I said, “OK.”
And the kid is working around there, and when I get ready to leave and
I get him in the car and we pile his books in at the bus station, and I
start on the turnpike, and I said, “How long have you known Jack?”
And he said, “I don’t know him. I didn’t have enough money to get to
Fort Worth, and I started talking to him on the street, and he told
me to come up to the club and he would give me a couple of dollars to
work, and then he got me a ride.”
And Jack doesn’t know him, and here I am on a dark turnpike with this
guy. But that is the way he does things.
There was a guy standing down one night in front of the place looking
at pictures out in front, and Jack was down there, and he started
talking to him, and that guy stayed around for a long time, and he got
to be, well, he knew a lot of people here, and he was a pretty nice guy.