I don’t even know that he told Ralph what he was going to do with it.
[Repeating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you refer to “he had it in the drawer,” you mean Jack
Ruby?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes. But he was telling us again what I had overheard
over the telephone about the gun and about out with one or the other.
And he said that he had told Jack that he was either crazy, or
something like that, that he didn’t know what he was doing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was present during this conversation on Sunday?
Mrs. HELMICK. Everybody that worked for him was gathered around there
on the other side of this object that I have drawn where the cashier
stands. We were all standing around in a huddle, and John was standing
on one side of the counter, and we were all on the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you refer to Johnny, do you mean Ralph Paul?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you name the other employees who were there?
Mrs. HELMICK. It was Rose. I don’t know their last names. It was Rose
and Bonnie, and a boy named Joe and this tall man, and I don’t remember
his name, and Curly. This is an old man that works there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all those people still employed there?
Mrs. HELMICK. As far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave your job there?
Mrs. HELMICK. I was sick for a week, and my baby was sick for a week,
and whenever I got sick, I was off for about a week and 3 days, I
guess, and whenever I went back after my job, he told me I couldn’t
have it, that he had hired someone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a fight with Ralph?
Mrs. HELMICK. No, I hadn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ralph Paul before then?
Mrs. HELMICK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get your job there?
Mrs. HELMICK. He called me on the telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to get your name?
Mrs. HELMICK. I went down there after I quit another job at Pal’s
Drive-In in Arlington, I went down there and asked about a job, and he
called me about 3 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he made any advances toward you?
Mrs. HELMICK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had never had anything but a business relationship
with him?
Mrs. HELMICK. That is all. I must have not got too well acquainted with
him. I didn’t talk to him because I didn’t understand him. He didn’t
talk like you. He was Jew or something and I couldn’t understand him,
so I just didn’t talk to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel any hostility toward him?
Mrs. HELMICK. No, I felt he had it toward me. He made me feel that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to get that impression?
Mrs. HELMICK. The first day I started working for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the day was the conversation on Sunday that
you overheard?
Mrs. HELMICK. It was before Oswald died. It was about 20 minutes, I
guess, after he was shot, because everybody else already knew it, and
they was calling Ralph and telling him about it.
As soon as he found out about it, he called Tammi on the telephone, and
Tammi came down and they left together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication from Tammi that she had seen Jack
the night before?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t remember. I can’t remember if Ralph had said that
“I saw Tammi the day before”, or not, but he told us that, I believe he
told us that he saw Jack that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that your recollection is that on Sunday he
told you that he had seen Jack on Saturday night?
Mrs. HELMICK. I believe he did. I don’t remember. It’s been too long
ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who have you told this story to besides the FBI and people
here in this room?
Mrs. HELMICK. I told it to my husband the day that it happened. He was
there. As soon as I got the gossip I went and told him. That is all it
was to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell anybody else that you recall?
Mrs. HELMICK. I told my whole family about the telephone call and about
what happened over there, and I guess everyone knew it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends?
Mrs. HELMICK. If we got to talking about the subject, I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular girl friends that you might
have told it to?
Mrs. HELMICK. Girl friend?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or boy friends?
Mrs. HELMICK. I was talking to Joyce Bradley. I was talking to her
yesterday on the telephone and told her about the letter that you all
had sent me, and told her what I just told you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean shortly after this happened.
Mrs. HELMICK. Oh, well, my family, and I guess, well, I wrote to Don’s
relatives in Baltimore, Md., right after it happened and I told them
I worked for him, and told them what was going on down here on TV and
everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell them about this conversation that you
overheard?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of that relative?
Mrs. HELMICK. Let’s see, Rosemary Helmick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?
Mrs. HELMICK. In Baltimore, Md.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have her address?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t have it now, but at the time I wrote her, it was
4116 Dartford.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has she moved since then?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI?
Mrs. HELMICK. Twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time, did they ask you these questions that I
have just been asking you about who else you told?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes, but I don’t think I told them about me writing the
letter, or I don’t remember what I told them. I mean I have been so
nervous and everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why didn’t you report this to the police or to the Federal
authorities shortly after you heard about it?
Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t think it was anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you certainly must have thought it was something.
You told your husband.
Mrs. HELMICK. No, I didn’t tell him. I thought it was something, I just
thought it was gossip, so I gossiped. They went down and talked to the
police the day that Jack Ruby got arrested, so I didn’t think it was
anything.
I thought surely that they would tell them, so what was the use of me
telling them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you knew that now when you followed the Ruby trial,
you knew that none of this came out in the Ruby trial?
Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t follow the Ruby trial. My TV has been broke.
Well, it is not really broke but the antenna is messed up on it, and I
haven’t had a good TV antenna in 2 or 3 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in the newspapers, didn’t you follow the
newspapers?
Mrs. HELMICK. No, I don’t take a newspaper. But Ralph Paul wasn’t
brought out in any of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. HELMICK. I just know that he wasn’t because I never heard his name
mentioned by anybody else. I mean, I got the gossip. But right after
the trial, I guess I don’t know when the trial was, but the FBI soon
found me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They didn’t find you until sometime in June, did they?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know, but these people that I worked for, they
was trying to keep everything so much of a secret, and I didn’t see
anything wrong with what they had said. I mean, they was trying to keep
Ralph Paul hid sort of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts were they making to hide it, as you say?
Mrs. HELMICK. Well, whenever the newspaper would call on the telephone,
they would say that he doesn’t own this place any more, or he isn’t
here any more. Even if he was there, they would say he wasn’t there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the same day that Oswald was shot, or was that
later on?
Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it was that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a fellow by the name of Jackson that works there?
Mrs. HELMICK. Jackson, I believe that was that tall fellow’s name that
I mentioned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the fellow that Ralph Paul lived with?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know. I didn’t know he lived with anyone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with Tammi?
Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t know he lived with anyone at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in that--how many waitresses did he
have? Carhops and so forth?
Mrs. HELMICK. Carhops, there was me and Toyo, and 4 waitresses--this is
during the daytime?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. HELMICK. There was Bonnie and Rose.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have in the evening?
Mrs. HELMICK. I believe his name was Joe, and his wife was working
nights. She had just started right after I started to work there. I
don’t remember if there was anybody else working there as a waitress,
but there was a girl named Joe, a tall blond-headed girl, and a girl
had just gotten out of the hospital and was coming back to work about
three or four nights after I was working there. I can’t remember her
name, but we all chipped in to buy her something, some kind of gift. It
was a nightgown. And she started to work there again after I did, but I
don’t remember her name. But I would recognize all them people if I saw
them again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you thought of anything else that might be helpful to
us in this regard?
Mrs. HELMICK. Now I may not know anything that would help you, but
surely I am not the only one that heard this. I know that I am not,
and Rose and everybody that was standing around there at that counter
hearing Ralph talk, they all know what I have just said. But whether
they heard the conversation on the telephone that night, if they did,
I don’t know. They wouldn’t tell me but I didn’t ask any of them. But
they never did say. Them people were quiet. They kept everything to
theirselves. The reason I didn’t call anybody, I was afraid to get
involved, really. And I didn’t know that I could be of help to anybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anybody suggested to you that you shouldn’t get
involved?
Mrs. HELMICK. No one ever suggested anything; because I didn’t believe
that it was--I mean I figured that they would find it out sooner or
later, and I didn’t figure that it was anything that anybody was
hiding. I mean, I wasn’t hiding it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what significance that telephone conversation
has?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know that it has any bearing on the case at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you remember it then?
Mrs. HELMICK. Because of the gun, and after Oswald had been shot the
next day, I knew that it was bound to have something to do with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think it has to do with it?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know. My own opinion has nothing to do with this,
I don’t think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think the conversation about the gun didn’t have
anything to do with the shooting of Oswald? Is that what you are saying?
Mrs. HELMICK. It was the same gun that they were talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. HELMICK. Because Ralph told us the next day that it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think that has to do with the shooting of
Oswald?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know that he told him that he was going to shoot
Oswald or not, but I do know that he told him about the gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You must certainly think that he might have been telling
him that he was going to shoot Oswald? That is the reason he was
talking about the gun?
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know what I thought. I mean, I didn’t give it too
much thought. I didn’t give anything much thought about it then. I have
thought a lot since.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What have you thought about it since?
Mrs. HELMICK. Well, in my own mind, I believe that he told Ralph Paul
that he was going to shoot Oswald. But if he did, Ralph didn’t tell
none of us that he did. At least I don’t think he did. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your coming here and helping
us on this.
Mrs. HELMICK. I have thought a lot on it, but I just can’t remember.
It’s just been too long ago. If someone had suggested me calling the
police or FBI or something right away, I would have. I mean I didn’t
have nothing to hide. I wasn’t trying to hide from them, but I just
never thought of it. It didn’t even enter my mind, and I would have
remembered a lot more then, I guess, if there was anything to remember.
But it’s just been too long ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, it’s been very good of you to help us even at this
point, and we are very grateful to you. I have no more questions,
unless you can think of something else that you might want to add.
Mrs. HELMICK. You want to keep this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark this.
Mrs. HELMICK. I marked it all up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram.
Mrs. HELMICK. You want me to tell you what all this is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me mark the diagram. I thought we had an
explanation of it, but I am going to mark the diagram that you have
drawn “Wanda Helmick, Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”
Where are you a native of? Are you a native of Dallas?
Mrs. HELMICK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Texas?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts?
Mrs. HELMICK. Commerce.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know where that is. Do you want to explain to us
this diagram?
Mrs. HELMICK. This little line here in zigzag----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The light wavy line that you have drawn at the bottom of
the page?
Mrs. HELMICK. This is tables back in here where there is extra
customers for dinner hours, and these booths are just used----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do people park their cars in this drive-in?
Mrs. HELMICK. I haven’t got it drawn in on here, but it is back this
way [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the other side of the wavy line the
garage or parking area? Would that be proper?
Mrs. HELMICK. There is places [marking].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would the wall of the building be in the front?
Mrs. HELMICK. Right along in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to indicate that with a heavy black line. Do
you want to write “wall” on it?
Mrs. HELMICK. OK; this is the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a walkway up?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes; there is not no walkway. There is just bars out
there to stop the cars from running into the building. But there is a
parking area all the way around the building for carhops. I have wrote
“car parking” where the carhops just service the cars. But there is
a place for them to park all the way around the building. There is
mirrors outside in front for the carhops to see from the booths.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to mark that this is a booth where you put
your X?
(Mrs. Helmick marks.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to mark in the area where the tables are?
Write the word “tables” where it was you said the tables were.
Mrs. HELMICK. Oh, these?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
(Mrs. Helmick writes.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if that is a reasonably accurate diagram of what we
were talking about, I will ask you to sign it. If you think there is
anything more to put on it, go ahead and do it.
Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you sign it with the pen I gave you there?
Mrs. HELMICK (signing). It is not a very good diagram.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think it is accurate enough for the purpose of
what you have explained to us?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you one more question. How many telephones were
at the Bull Pen Drive-in?
Mrs. HELMICK. Just the one pay telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that it is a pay telephone?
Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF NANCY MONNELL POWELL
The testimony of Nancy Mennell Powell was taken at 11 a.m., on July 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself first. My name is Burt Griffin,
and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Now, we routinely try to explain to the witnesses before we get into
the testimony what we are here for, and a little about the Commission,
so I will say to you at the outset that the Commission was established
as a result of an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint
resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts the Commission
has been directed to investigate into the assassination of President
Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then to report back to
President Johnson all the facts that we are able to determine.
We have asked you to come here today in particular because you had
worked for Jack Ruby for a period of time. Maybe it will give us some
insight into what kind of a person he was and his activities. Under the
rules and regulations that have been established by the Commission, I
have been specifically designated to take your testimony. I might tell
you that there is a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled
to have 3 days’ notice in writing before being asked to testify, so I
will ask you first of all, have you received a letter from us?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive it?
Mrs. POWELL. Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Last Sunday, so there is no problem on the notice there?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask me?
Mrs. POWELL. No, sir; not really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before I administer the oath to you?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I have been questioned by the FBI three times already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Only three times?
Mrs. POWELL. That is enough. They were following me around everywhere I
went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if there are any questions that should arise as we
proceed with the testimony, you feel free to ask them.
Mrs. POWELL. I will; don’t worry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand and let me administer the
oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. POWELL. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your full name?
Mrs. POWELL. Nancy Monnell Powell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mrs. POWELL. M-o-n-n-e-l-l Powell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a professional or stage name that you use?
Mrs. POWELL. Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mrs. POWELL. T-a-m-m-i T-r-u-e [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, now, Mrs. Powell?
Mrs. POWELL. I live in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?
Mrs. POWELL. Mrs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in Fort Worth?
Mrs. POWELL. 1217 Clarence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you living alone, or with your husband?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I am divorced. My grandmother is living with me, and I
have two children living with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mrs. POWELL. June the 9th, 1938.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed presently?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mrs. POWELL. The Islands Club in Oklahoma City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the I-s-l-a-n-d-s [spelling]?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there?
Mrs. POWELL. Since Wednesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working before that?
Mrs. POWELL. I wasn’t. I have been off for 6 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about before that?
Mrs. POWELL. I worked in Oklahoma City at the Dugout Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long do you expect to be at the Islands Club?
Mrs. POWELL. I have a 2 weeks contract, with 2 weeks option.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any place where, if we should want to talk to you
again, that we could locate you?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, while I am in the city, I am staying at the Rio
Motel in Oklahoma City, but this is my permanent address. I own my home
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Fort Worth?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does your grandmother always know where you can be found?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be easiest to contact you through her, or do you
have an agent?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I don’t have an agent. I use a lot of different agents.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you worked for Jack Ruby; is that right?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?
Mrs. POWELL. About 2 years ago, or 2½ years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a better estimate of the time? Was it in
early 1962, or the summer of 1962, or when?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, gosh, I have to stop and think. Let’s see, it was in
the fall. I know it was in the fall. I don’t remember. I think it was
probably in the, well, it might have been early spring. I think it was
in March when I went to work there, and I think it was 1962. I can’t
remember that. I can’t remember dates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him altogether?
Mrs. POWELL. You mean when I--not counting the times I was gone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you work for him steadily after you first went
to work for him, or were there times when you didn’t work for him?
Mrs. POWELL. I worked steady for about 9 months or a year, and then I
went out of town for 2 or 3 months, and then I came back and worked,
and went out of town, and came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you first go to work for him?
Mrs. POWELL. This friend of mine was working over there, and she told
me about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. POWELL. Shari Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you worked as a dancer before?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; but I hadn’t been working steady. I had been doing
club dates. There is a club in Fort Worth that they have exotics on
weekends, and that was all I was doing. I had never worked seven nights
a week before, and three shows a night, and she wanted me to go on the
road. I am her protege.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is her real name?
Mrs. POWELL. Kay Garcia.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live in Dallas or Fort Worth area?
Mrs. POWELL. In Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?
Mrs. POWELL. If you hadn’t asked me, I could have told you. I am a
blank. I know the address and the number and everything. She lives out
off Garland Road someplace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you were her protege. Are you still her
protege? Or was that back a couple of years?
Mrs. POWELL. I am considered a star now, but that was, it might have
been 1961 when I went to work for Jack, because I started in--let me
go back and think. I got my divorce in 1960 in May, and I think it was
in January or February of 1961 that I started dancing. It was about 6
months after I got my divorce that I first started, and I just worked
around Fort Worth for about 7 or 8 months. That would make it 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you figuring this as I am going along?
Mrs. POWELL. It is hard to remember, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You got your divorce----
Mrs. POWELL. In May of 1960.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you didn’t start to work as a dancer until about 6
months later; is that right?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes, about 6 months, I believe. I think I started in
February. That would be 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked around Fort Worth for another 6 or 7 months?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you go to work for Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that still would have made it 1961, perhaps the latter
part of 1961?
Mrs. POWELL. No; wait a minute--well, I don’t know, seems like I have
known him for a hundred years. But what was I telling you--oh, yes; she
wanted me to--where was I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were telling me about Shari Lynn and your friendship
with her and you were her protege.
Mrs. POWELL. So, she was working for Jack. She has been in business a
long time, and she asked him to put me to work, so I could get some
experience, 7 nights a week, and I did, and I stayed there. She only
wanted me to work there 2 or 3 weeks or something, and I stayed there
forever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you work continuously for Jack before
you stopped working for awhile?
Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I really don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from?
Mrs. POWELL. It was a long time. It was, you know, close to a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you work?
Mrs. POWELL. I think I went there in March of whatever year it was, and
I didn’t go on the road until the next summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A year and a half then, almost?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because it was in the summer--two summers ago. Not
last summer, but the summer before last. I went to Houston, for, I
don’t know, a few weeks or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And came back? Would that have been 1962?
Mr. POWELL. October.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have started working for him in about 1961?
Mrs. POWELL. I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you on the road in the summer of 1962?
Mrs. POWELL. Let’s see, I worked down there, I think, 3 weeks in
Houston, and then I came back, but I didn’t go back to work out there
immediately. I was off for awhile. I didn’t work any place for awhile
and then I went back, but don’t ask me when, because I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you did go back, which would have been, I presume in
the fall of 1962, even later, maybe the winter of 1962?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I was there New Year’s Eve, I know, of that year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went back to work for Jack, and then how long did
you work for him after that?