Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember having anything to eat at KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get that from?
Mr. PAPPAS. From one of the diskjockeys there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you have?
Mr. PAPPAS. I had sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Corned beef sandwiches?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t know. I am not sure. I don’t know what type they
were. Might have been corned beef.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people we have talked to at KLIF recall that
you were present when Ruby was there. Do you have any recollection of
that?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; this is absolutely incorrect.
Now, the sandwiches were there when I arrived. I had not eaten. And I
was very happy to have a sandwich. It was quite good, also. And I had a
bottle of pop, and I said this is terrific, where did you get all this?
And the person I spoke to said, “Oh, some guy brought them up.” And I
said, “Great.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge at the time you were there, would you
have been able to have seen Ruby in the place if he were there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I am sure if he was--if he was in the same area I
was, certainly. I don’t know whether he was or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would depend on how many rooms the radio station has.
Were you in the newsroom?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t believe they have a newsroom as such. They have an
area off of a control room which has some teletypes in it. I guess if
that is their newsroom--yes; I was in the newsroom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in any of the broadcast studios? Were you in any
of those?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; you see, the area that I was describing serves, from
what I could tell, as a newsroom, as a broadcasting area, and as a
control area, also, control room, because the person on the air was
speaking into a microphone, broadcasting and doing his own control work
while the teletypes were going, I believe, right in the same room, with
all of us. I was having a sandwich while he was broadcasting, and I was
doing my own work, as I recall. Wait a minute now. No; there is another
studio next to it--that is right. At any rate, there is a control area
and a studio, and I think the one that I was in that Friday night
served as a broadcast studio, also. But there is another studio right
next door to it, and you can see into it. There is a big glass panel
there and everything; else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any way of fixing the time that you were at
KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; it was early in the morning. I am not quite sure when.
Maybe 2:30. I don’t know. It was well into the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as 3 o’clock in the morning?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been any earlier than 2 o’clock in the
morning?
Mr. PAPPAS. It is difficult for me to say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the people whom you
met there?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t recall the names offhand. I have a mental image of
one person, but I cannot recall his name immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a fellow by the name of Russ Knight, called
The Weird Beard?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he at the studio when you were there that night?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people at the studio?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; there was one other person. He is the person I have a
mental picture of, but I cannot think of his name right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Glenn Duncan?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the man?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Saturday, what time did you arrive at the police
department?
Mr. PAPPAS. I am afraid that Saturday--I went directly from the station
to the police station. I didn’t get any sleep at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. On, I remained there until Saturday night at approximately
8:45 or so, 9 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to fix at all where you would have been
between 3, Saturday afternoon, and 6 o’clock Saturday evening--that is
to say, can you tell us if you were up on the third floor during that
period?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I was there most of the day. I am sure I had occasion
to be there from 3 to 6.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you station yourself permanently up on the third
floor, or were you throughout the building the day that you were there,
on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were throughout the building; yes. I was, I would
say, all over the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all at the police department on
Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed
being taken when you were at the police department on Saturday, first
of all with respect to the admission of newspaper people onto the third
floor?
Mr. PAPPAS. They were following the same procedure, posting a man,
two men, sometimes three men, at the elevator doors, and checking, I
suppose the credentials of the people who came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your credentials checked on Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. I wear my police badge in a situation like that, or
the New York City press card, which is issued by the police department,
so that it was visible all the time. They had checked it. So I suppose
they didn’t want to check it again, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lee Oswald moved at any time through the third floor
hallway when you were there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of protection was provided for Oswald that you
recall in moving him?
Mr. PAPPAS. He was given a police escort. Whenever they were going to
move him, they would have all of the reporters clear a way through the
corridor. We were all jammed in, and they cleared a path through the
mass of bodies. And then Oswald would be taken out by detectives and
uniformed police.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close could you get to Oswald as he was being moved?
Mr. PAPPAS. Right next to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you leave the police department on
Saturday?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, roughly 9, 9:15 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left, had you heard anything about the
movement of Lee Oswald the next day?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard?
Mr. PAPPAS. We had heard just before we were sent home, that he
was--that he was not going to be moved that night. We heard that from
Chief Curry. He said, and I remember his quote--he said, “We plan to
move this man not tonight.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about what time he would be moved the
next day that you recall?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was sort of a question and answer thing. The
questioning went like this. After he said--we were all wondering
whether we were going to have to spend the entire night at the station.
And--you know, waiting for Oswald’s departure. And we were quite
relieved when Mr. Curry came out and he said that they did not plan
to move him that night--at least I did--I wanted to get some sleep. I
hadn’t slept in a couple of days. And the reporters started to question
him. And the questioning went like this:
“When will you move him?”
“Well, if you boys would be here by 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, that
will be early enough.”
And someone yelled, “Do you plan to move him at 10 o’clock?”
And the answer was something to this effect--“Well, if you boys get
here by 10 o’clock”--or “It won’t be any later than 10 o’clock.”
And we all got the pretty good impression that is when they were going
to move him.
He didn’t come out and say, “We will move him tomorrow at 10 o’clock.”
But we all got the distinct impression that is when it was going to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive back at the police department on
Sunday morning?
Mr. PAPPAS. At 9:15, 9:20.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go at that point?
Mr. PAPPAS. Went to Chief Curry’s office. Third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go inside the office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes--into the chief’s complex of offices.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened when you got in there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, when I got there he was talking to some reporters,
having another press conference, about Oswald’s activities overnight,
what he had for breakfast, and things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before Oswald was actually brought down in the
basement, did you receive any indication, either by what you observed
or by what someone told you, or by what you overheard, with respect to
the manner in which he was going to be moved, or the route by which he
was to be moved, or the time or circumstances under which he would be
moved?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told that he was going to be moved in an
armored car, or an armored truck. And someone at the window said,
“There is an armored truck downstairs.” And there was one. I just got
a glimpse of it. I don’t know whether he was trying to back into the
garage at the time or not. I can’t recall.
And we asked him why the armored truck. And he said, “Well, our police
cars are not bullet proof.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Curry said that?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the armored truck arrived, did you have any
indication that the armored truck might be on its way to the police
station?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I didn’t see the armored truck arrive. Somebody just
said there is an armored truck.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean before you saw the armored truck the first
time--did you have any idea that the armored truck was going to be used
at all before you saw it down there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told by Curry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before you actually saw the truck?
Mr. PAPPAS. Almost immediately before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do then, when you saw the armored truck?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I went back to talking to Curry. He was waiting
around up there. People were asking him questions. He was passing the
time of day, and we were getting information.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later is it you estimate that Oswald was
finally moved out of the homicide office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Let’s see. Later than what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, than this particular episode you have just been
describing, talking with Curry, and having seen the armored car.
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, Curry left. A lot of other reporters left. It was
about 11 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am probably not making myself clear. How much time
elapsed between the time that you finished talking with Curry, after
having seen the armored car, and the time that Oswald was actually
moved?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, I would say 20 minutes, 25 minutes. To the best of my
recollection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Oswald was taken out of
the homicide office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when he was brought out of the office?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I saw Captain Fritz coming out first, and Oswald was
behind him. I walked up to Fritz and I asked him a question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your tape recorder with you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any tapes of what took place up there in the
hallway at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they be available for us to listen to?
Mr. PAPPAS. You have them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have that particular tape?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is one of the tapes you had given to the FBI?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you right now then if you recall
what--generally what were the contents of these various tapes which you
gave the FBI?
Mr. PAPPAS. I gave them only one tape--the tape in the hallway, and the
actual shooting of Oswald by Ruby. It was all on one reel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Oswald got past you up there on the third floor,
what did you do?
Mr. PAPPAS. I went down to the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ran down the stairs?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long before Oswald emerged from the jail
office was it that you arrived down there in the basement?
Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly a minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see happen as Oswald came out?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oswald came out. There were two detectives on either side
of him. Captain Fritz was leading the way. There were other detectives
behind him. Detectives behind, both walls from the exit to the jail,
the basement walls. Oswald came right past me, and I did as many of us
did throughout those 2 days, I shouted a question at him. And then I
noticed a black blur, and I noticed a bang--I heard a bang, rather, I
recall a flash, and then pandemonium.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack Ruby say anything as he moved toward
Oswald?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think if he had said something, that you would
have heard it?
Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on how loudly he said it. If he whispered it,
certainly I could not hear it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if he had spoken in a normal voice?
Mr. PAPPAS. If he had spoken in a normal voice--that would be difficult
for me to tell. I could not say if he spoke in a normal voice. If he
shouted something at him, I would say that I could have heard it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you able to hear Oswald’s groan or response as
he was hit?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the volume of that response compare to somebody
speaking in a normal voice? Was it an extremely loud sound that he
made, or don’t you have any recollection?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, an extremely loud sound--it is hard for me to
estimate what is loud and what is not. It is very vague.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, describe it in your own words.
Mr. PAPPAS. It was like an expulsion of air, a gasp. It was audible
from where I was. I heard him. If I said it was loud, I don’t know
whether it would mean anything to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can make a statement like that and then maybe you
can----
Mr. PAPPAS. It didn’t throw my head back or anything like that. I have
been blasted by loud sounds. But this was an audible sound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other people speaking and shouting at the time?
Mr. PAPPAS. At the time of what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this gasp came out?
Mr. PAPPAS. No. There were people--I imagine there was a slight din.
But I noticed distinctly that the shot went off, and there was a cold
moment of silence, and then the gasp. It was a very quick split-second
thing. But there were these two moans that I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I have not listened to the tape yet and that
might answer many of the questions.
Mr. PAPPAS. I think that would help a lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order--of course, the tape is a result of a
microphone, which may or may not pick up everything that the human ear
picks up. Maybe we can work into this by my asking you, was this a
directional mike or to what extent did the microphone itself that you
were using limit the ability of the recording apparatus to pick up the
kinds of sounds that the human ear would have heard?
Mr. PAPPAS. It didn’t limit it at all--from my knowledge of the
instrument. It is nondirectional microphone. Its field travels in a
slightly elliptical fashion. But it encompasses a greater area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here a number of pictures which I think you
provided to the FBI.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do is to have you look at them. But
I want to mark them first. And I would like to get some idea of what
distances are really involved in these pictures. I am going to mark a
single large photograph which shows a picture of Jack Ruby approaching
Lee Oswald, and Oswald in this picture is not looking at Ruby--I am
going to mark this Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964. Exhibit
No. 1.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition
Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to look at it with me. Now, you are
in this photograph, and I take it you are the person who someone has
circled in ink.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far are you actually standing from Jack Ruby as
you recall in that picture?
Mr. PAPPAS. From Ruby, I don’t know, because he was just a blur over to
my left. I was approximately 5 feet--5 or 6 feet from Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I am going to mark the next picture in the same
manner--Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition
Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a series of six photographs on one photographic
sheet. It is a sequence of shots showing Lee Oswald approaching, and
in each of the first four pictures, starting at the top, you appear,
and your head is circled. In the first picture in the middle row, you
can see you holding out a microphone. Do you have any recollection,
or are you able to give us any identification at that point where the
microphone is being held out in this first picture in the second row
how far that microphone really was from Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was at this point that I was asking my question,
and it was--maybe 4 feet, or 5 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the next picture, and that is the second picture in
the second row, shows a figure which is Jack Ruby approaching toward
Oswald, and the microphone appears to be between Ruby and Oswald.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea in that picture how far the
microphone would be from Jack Ruby’s face?
Mr. PAPPAS. From Jack Ruby’s face?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I do not. I did not see Jack Ruby at that point. I
could not estimate it, because I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how far was the path that Jack Ruby traveled as he
would have got directly in front of you--how far would he have been
from you at that point? Do you have some recollection of his path?
Mr. PAPPAS. It was just a quick streak. I don’t want to mislead you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to. I don’t want to lead you into saying
something which you cannot be accurate about.
Mr. PAPPAS. No. I was concentrating on Oswald. He was the person that
we had to speak to. And--you notice I am watching Oswald throughout.
Here is Ruby, apparently going right for him. And I suppose when he got
up around forward of me, I saw this flash. And I really cannot judge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having to pull the
microphone back as this flash went past you?
Mr. PAPPAS. No. I realized at a certain point that Oswald was not going
to answer my question, and I still held it out. It was still out here.
And--it was still projected forward at that point, still hoping that he
might turn around and say something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again let me ask you--what is your best estimate of how
far Oswald was from you, as you look at the second picture in the
second row?
Mr. PAPPAS. The best estimate is 6 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way that you can describe at a distance of,
say, 4 to 8 feet, the pickup ability of your microphone?
Mr. PAPPAS. Do you mean if the subject is 4 feet from my microphone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. Then what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then in terms of the volume of the sound, what ability
does your microphone have to pick up sound at that point?
Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on the volume of the sound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can it pick up conversation in a normal tone of voice at 4
feet?
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about at 8 feet?
Mr. PAPPAS. At 8 feet it would. It would pick up normal conversation.
Naturally the volume of it would be less, but it would be audible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way you can think of that we can describe the
ability of this microphone at these two distances, 4 and 8 feet, to
pick up sounds which are of less volume than a normal speaking voice?
Mr. PAPPAS. I am not sure whether I understand your question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, trying to find out--you said that it would not
pick up a whisper at one point. Now, somewhere between a whisper and
normal speaking voice there are other conversational tones or ranges
of loudness that you might be able to describe in your own words and
from your own experience, that this microphone might pick up at those
distances.
Mr. PAPPAS. I have had no experience with any volume of voice between a
whisper and a normal speaking voice. I could not tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark a document for the purpose of
identification as Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit
No. 3.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition
Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this document consists of two pages, numbered
consecutively at the bottom 475 and 476. And it is a copy of an
interview report prepared by two special agents of the FBI, Lower and
Hester, as a result of speaking with you in New York City on July 2,
1964. I would like to ask you to look at this interview report, read
it over, and tell us if that accurately reports your conversation with
them on that date as best you can recall.
Mr. PAPPAS. I think it does; yes, basically.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you, then, if you would sign the
interview report on the first page and initial the second page.
Mr. PAPPAS. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it on the first page at a conspicuous spot at the top.
Mr. PAPPAS. This is an affidavit?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; this is just an interview report.
Mr. PAPPAS. Do I get a copy of this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can get a copy of the deposition that is being taken
here. And we can then----
Mr. PAPPAS. Can I have this read?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to----
Mr. PAPPAS. No; it is all right.
All right. Where shall I sign it--right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top; yes, and just initial the next page.
Now, let me hand you also what I have marked as Icarus M. Pappas
deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4.
(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition
Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is another interview report prepared by two agents
of the FBI, Eugene W. O’Neill, and James J. Rogers. It reports an
interview that they had with you in New York City June 30, 1964, and it
also consists of two pages. If you would read that, and also tell us if
that accurately reflects what you told them at that time.
Mr. PAPPAS. This does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign that, then, on the first page, and initial
the second? I might ask you one final question, which is a very general
question. In your experience, reporting this event, the events of
November 22, 23, and 24, do you feel that there were any--that any
restrictions or precautions could have been taken, either to have
provided more orderly distribution of information to the press, or to
safeguard Lee Oswald, that in your estimation were not taken?
Mr. PAPPAS. I wonder if you could state that again?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me state it as two questions. From the
standpoint of a newspaper reporter, do you feel that the local
authorities in Dallas could have or should have instituted procedures
which would have provided a more orderly flow of news to the press, or
more restricted flow than was permitted?
Mr. PAPPAS. It is hard to say for me. I think that we got the news from
the police department. That is what I am concerned with. And how I get
it, whether it is orderly or not, is really none of my concern. I think
if that is the way they do it, holding interviews in a hallway, that is
the way I have to get it. I think that if they had set up an auditorium
somewhere and came in with reports, this would be orderly. But how
productive it would have been, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have----
Mr. PAPPAS. I think ideally, as a reporter, as a newsman, I think
ideally if there is an incident, a crash, or a homicide, or something,
it would make our job a lot easier if we could have all of the
witnesses and all of the interviews that we have to get brought in and
placed in front of us in a large auditorium. This would be nice and
orderly for us. But, unfortunately, that is not the way our business
works.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you think it would have been proper for the
police to have refused access--refused you people access to the third
floor?
Mr. PAPPAS. As far as a newsman is concerned; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you the second question, on the protection of
Lee Oswald. Did you observe any inadequacies in the manner in which
Oswald was protected that you would be able to bring to our attention?
Mr. PAPPAS. I am not a police officer. I don’t know what is adequate
and what is not. I could not tell you. I am not a law officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. I appreciate that. Do you have any
other observations that you would want to make about your experiences
in Dallas on those 3 days?
Mr. PAPPAS. Just that it was one of the saddest assignments that I have
had to cover ever, and that it was professionally a challenge. That is
all I could say generally about It.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any information that you think would be of
significance for us?
Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no. I have just told the story so many times. I
have just made every statement that I think could be made by me. That
is what I know at this point. Unless you can think of something else
specifically that you are puzzled about.