third floor, and, as a matter of fact, what we were trying to do was
move one of the cameras from the third floor down to the basement,
so I left instructions to do that and went down to the county jail
where we had another mobile unit, for the first time, and we had a
communications setup where I would, since I knew everything, I would
call the shots, so to speak, from the county. Right before they were
going to move him I came back for a last minute check at the city jail,
and actually at the time of the shooting I was at the county jail.
About 30 minutes later, 40, 40 minutes probably, after the shooting,
and after we went off the air, I came back, we dispatched the county
jail unit to the hospital and I came back and operated once again out
of the city jail, so I was there a number of times.
Mr. BALL. You were at the county jail, then, at the time of the actual
shooting?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. At the time of the shooting I was calling the shots in
the other mobile unit.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, on Saturday when you went into the various
parts of the building that were being used by the Dallas Police
Department, were you ever asked to identify yourself in order to get in?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I think conceivably once I was asked to show a
credential.
Mr. BALL. What about on Sunday morning when you went into the basement?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No.
Mr. BALL. Were you asked to show a credential?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No. In fairness to the Dallas Police Department, I
would offer the fact that a guy who has been out there in a mobile
unit for over the period of time I was there, I was recognized.
Mr. BALL. As a man with NBC?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. As a man with NBC.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. And as a director, you know.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you go down the ramp in the morning, on Sunday
morning?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you walk down the ramp?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I had a cameraman with me.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a camera?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, the electronic camera was already down there,
although later on I supervised the moving of a camera down there.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a badge on display?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No.
Mr. BALL. Did the cameraman have a badge on display?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No. This was one of our problems, because after the
shooting they insisted on badges and the WBAP--although I carry a Los
Angeles Police Department Badge, which proved sufficient, the WBAP men
had no identification.
Mr. BALL. Now, I have the first name of a cameraman at WBAP, Herman.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes; that’s the wrong first name, it’s Homer.
Mr. BALL. Homer?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. And I still can’t remember the last name. But he and I,
Belli subpenaed he and I down in Dallas on the trial. We never got on
the stand. I can’t think of his name.
Mr. BALL. Then there was a reporter named Pettit, you have mentioned
his name.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Tom Pettit; right.
Mr. BALL. Then a film man from Shreveport, La.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Whose name still escapes me.
Mr. BALL. He is a free lancer?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. And he was just working for you that day?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. He was working over that 3-day period.
Mr. BALL. As a film man for you?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right. Either of these men’s names are available if you
want to call up.
Mr. BALL. Would you do that and call it in?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I sure will.
Mr. BALL. I think that’s all. Is there anything else you would like
to tell us or that you think would be of any assistance to us in the
investigation? Do you know anything else other than what you have
already told us about the problem?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I really don’t. I really don’t. You know, I don’t think
this is particularly valid for the record, but my overall impression
was that Ruby had no particular in with the Dallas police, he was--if
you work in the news business there is a type, and you know this a lot
better than I do, who enjoys authority, and to ingratiate himself into
what he considers high places he does almost anything. The general
attitude of the police and the people of the Dallas press and whatnot
of Ruby is that he was sort of a nuisance, but an omnipresent nuisance,
you know, he was the kind of guy you just accepted there, and I have
always said this is just the kind of guy who becomes practically
inconspicuous because he is well enough known as a nuisance type, and
I have always--my own personal conviction, which is worth absolutely
nothing, is that if there had been not a newsman in the place, somebody
would have been sure to find Ruby there and pushed him out of the way,
but Ruby would have been able to get in simply because he was such a
familiar type, you know, everybody there just knew who he was. I never
found anybody who said anything endearing about him. That’s all I can
say.
Mr. BALL. That’s all, then, I guess.
TESTIMONY OF ICARUS M. PAPPAS
The testimony of Icarus M. Pappas was taken at 9 a.m., on July 29,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself for the record.
My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of
the general counsel’s office of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission was set up pursuant
to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution
of Congress, in November of last year. As you probably know, the
Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of
President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report
back to President Johnson on all the facts we are able to determine.
We have asked you to come here in particular this morning, Mr. Pappas,
because you were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and you had
occasion to meet Jack Ruby.
Now, under the rules of the Commission, I have been specifically
designated to take your deposition. I might also add that under the
Commission’s rules, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice in
writing before you appear here. So I would ask you at the outset if you
did receive a letter from us and when it was that you actually received
it.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; actually, I received it Monday afternoon, this being
Wednesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then we have not complied with the 3-day notice
requirement. But I see you are here. And I presume you are willing to
waive the notice requirement.
Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes; that is why I came here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any questions you would want to ask me about
the deposition we are going to take before we get into it?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think so. I think I may have a question as we go
along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free to ask it.
If you will raise your right hand--do you solemnly swear the testimony
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAPPAS. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your name?
Mr. PAPPAS. Icarus M. Pappas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?
Mr. PAPPAS. 301 East 48th Street, Manhattan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. New York?
Mr. PAPPAS. New York City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living there in November of 1963?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you employed at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. WNEW Radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you still employed there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a New York radio station?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you happen to be in Dallas on the 22d of November?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you arrived in Dallas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Approximately 8 p.m., Dallas time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that when you arrived at the airport?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Dallas Police and Courts building some
time later that evening?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. It was the city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you to get out there? When
would you expect you arrived?
Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly 8:30, 8:20. It took us as long as it takes to get
from the airport to the city hall. And I believe it is about 20 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you went directly to the city hall?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people with you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was with you at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. There were several other reporters and photographers from
New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember their names?
Mr. PAPPAS. Only one that I can remember. His name was Bill Saro.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he with?
Mr. PAPPAS. He left United Press--he is with the Herald Tribune, I
believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was with United Press at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. I believe he was with the Herald Tribune at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
You used the word Saro, and it sounds a little like Carroll. I notice
in one of the interviews the FBI had with you they reported that one
of the people you were with was a man by the name of Carroll, Mickey
Carroll of the New York Herald Tribune. Is this the same person?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; Carroll was later on. We worked together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Now, when you arrived at the city hall, where did you first go?
Mr. PAPPAS. We went to the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with any of the officials there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were stopped at the elevator by a police captain,
I think, or a lieutenant--some officer--he checked our credentials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, was there any procedure set up for
identifying and screening newsmen that you were aware of?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, only the procedure I described--that there was a man
posted at the elevator who asked for my identification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not asked to check in with any central office?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time while you were there were you given any
instructions by the police department as to where you were to be,
where you were allowed to be, and what procedures, if any, were to be
followed?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were instructed that we were not to be in the
office, the homicide office, where the questioning was going on. We
were in the corridor, on the third floor. We were not told--I don’t
think that any limitations were drawn, or any boundaries beyond which
we could not go were laid out for us, except that we were not allowed
into the homicide office. And they had a guard outside to make sure of
that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware of anyone in the police department who
was performing liaison responsibilities with the press, or who had
some special designation as a person that members of the press should
contact?
Mr. PAPPAS. No, no; later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Later meaning----
Mr. PAPPAS. I am talking about the trial. They had a public relations
man. The thought flashed across my mind. But that was during the second
time I was in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your activities at the police department
between the time you arrived and about midnight when District Attorney
Wade held a press conference down in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I performed the job I was sent there to do--mainly
to gather information and to report back to New York on it. I stayed
on the third floor hoping to get interviews with people who might have
seen the assassination, and I was required by my office to report back
immediately, which I did. I went across the street to the White Plaza
Hotel, made a phone call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time would that have been? How soon after you
arrived?
Mr. PAPPAS. I would say 45 minutes, and that is only an approximation,
because I have not thought about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have access to the phones in the police department
for communication with New York?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; but not immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that come about?
Mr. PAPPAS. After midnight for me, sometime after midnight, well into
the morning, when things had settled down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember--let me ask you this. You did have
occasion to meet Jack Ruby while you were in Dallas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time before the
press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I did not meet him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a reporter from one of the Washington
newspapers by the name of O’Leary?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; not by name. Perhaps by sight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you this because in talking with O’Leary, O’Leary
had the recollection that he met Ruby with you on the third floor of
the Dallas Police Department sometime before the press conference,
and he thought it was in the vicinity of the public elevators. Do you
recall anything like that?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t recall that; no. If this incident happened, if
O’Leary is right about the person that he was with, I don’t remember
it. Perhaps somebody--I don’t even know who it was that I was with that
night. There was a lot of confusion. If this person was Jack Ruby, he
didn’t do anything that would make that occurrence stick in my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I might be able to identify O’Leary, a little better for
you, by indicating that he explained to us that on Sunday you and
he had worked out a procedure whereby you figured out whether you
could, by running, beat the elevator from the third floor down to the
basement. As I recall his explanation, he said that you rode on the
elevator and he ran down the stairs, and you two found that he could
run down the stairs before the elevator could get down there. Do you
remember that episode?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t. I think O’Leary has me mistaken for someone
else. I don’t recall that at all.
This was Sunday, of course, the day of the killing of Oswald?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t recall that incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Henry Wade came out of
the homicide office just before the conference was held in the assembly
room?
Mr. PAPPAS. Friday night, you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how close you were to the homicide door,
and what happened that you recall?
Mr. PAPPAS. As I recall it, I was at the head of the corridor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where is the head?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the public elevators?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it is near the public elevators; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or were you closer to the homicide room?
Mr. PAPPAS. It is in an “L” form. As you come out of the elevators,
you have to turn left to go down the corridor. Well, from the elbow,
let’s say, of the “L” to the homicide office, I couldn’t judge--perhaps
30 or 40 feet, roughly. I don’t know. But I was--if we are using that
standard that I just described, I was approximately 30 feet from Mr.
Wade, who was coming out of the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when Wade came out?
Mr. PAPPAS. I listened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened?
Mr. PAPPAS. Then everybody crowded around him and they said, “What
do you have to say, Henry? What about this? What about that?” And he
started to talk, and a lot of people protested, they said they could
not hear him, the Nation was listening, they wanted to know who this
fellow Oswald was. He finally agreed, I believe--he said, “Okay, let’s
all go downstairs.”
I didn’t know where downstairs was, but I said to myself if that is
where they are all going, that is where I am going. And I asked someone
beside me, and said, “Where are we going?” and he said, “They are going
to hold a press conference downstairs.” I said, “Great.” And I followed
Chief Curry and District Attorney Wade downstairs, where we all jammed
into the lineup room, I suppose.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself in the assembly room in
relationship to Henry Wade?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were all in there first, before Wade came in. He
stayed outside for awhile. I set my microphone up, or tried to get in
position with the other microphones which were on the table. And we all
expected Wade to come over there to deliver his statement, and also
to answer questions. Actually, Wade placed himself in position to me,
which was right next to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby while you were in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any conversation or any remarks that Jack
Ruby made to Henry Wade while in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after--how long is it you estimate that the press
conference lasted in the assembly room?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think I could estimate that. I don’t know. I really
didn’t pay any attention to the length of the press conference. I don’t
want to mislead you. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after the press conference
ended?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, afterward is a long time. You mean immediately
afterward?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately afterward.
Mr. PAPPAS. Let’s see. Yes--I wanted to talk to Henry Wade, wanted
to get a personal interview with him. And he did give us one or two
statements, and then he wandered out, everybody else was wandering
out. And I decided that I would try to get Henry Wade on the telephone
directly to my office in New York. I went outside. I saw some other
reporters--I didn’t know who they were, but they knew the ropes, I
suppose, of the police station, and they were using the phones out
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where, specifically, was this?
Mr. PAPPAS. At the reception area, outside of the lineup room. There is
a long reception desk, with other desks behind the long reception desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with what is called the records room of
the police department?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I suppose--was that the records room--I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am getting to. If you knew what the records
room was, that would be my next question.
Mr. PAPPAS. Specifically I didn’t know whether they called it the
records room. It looked like a registration area to me. They did have a
lot of desks, files, people doing clerical work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know which room is the jail office, don’t you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the room that you are talking about now, was that the
jail office?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; this was the area immediately outside of the lineup
room. The jail office is a much smaller area, and it is enclosed. And
this was a wider, broader room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephones were located in that particular room
that you are talking about?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; they were on a counter-like affair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to go into the room to use the telephones, or
could you stand in the hallway next to the counter?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, as I recall it, when you stepped out of the lineup
room, you were in the other room. And the phones were right there on
the counter. In other words, the thing that marked off the room, or
the beginning of the room, apparently, was the counter. And on the
counter were the telephones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what you did then, at that point. You
picked up a telephone, or what happened?
Mr. PAPPAS. Henry Wade was on the phone to other radio stations, I
imagine, or to other newsrooms, because he was being asked a question,
and he was answering into a telephone. This is a technique that we use.
I felt that it would be more expeditious for me to do it that way. And
I picked up a phone, after Henry Wade had gotten toward the end of
his interview--I picked up a phone and dialed New York, and I asked
him, “Could you do this interview with me?” and he said, “Yes, but I
have another phone call over there.” And he pointed across the room.
Somebody had said, “Come over here.” I don’t know whether he recognized
him or what. But he left my telephone, and I don’t know whether I hung
up, or whether I had them wait in New York for me to get him back. But
at any rate, this disturbed me, because it was long distance, and I
had promised them this interview, and I wasn’t coming through with it
immediately, and this is always frustrating.
It was at this point that I ran into Ruby--the first time that I
recall. He came up to me as I was waiting for Wade and he said, “Where
are you from?” I said, “New York.” He said, “Are you a reporter?” I
said, “Yes.” He said, “How long are you going to be in town?” And I
said, “I will be here as long as it takes to do this story.” And he
reached into his pocket, and he pulled out a card. It said the Carousel
Club on it. And I was amazed. I didn’t know who he was or what he was.
My immediate impression of him was that he was a detective. He was well
dressed, nattily dressed, I imagine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his clothing?
Mr. PAPPAS. It was a dark suit. Whether it was gray or not, I don’t
know. But he had on a gray hat, fedora. And I looked at the card. I
couldn’t imagine what was happening.
It said, “Jack Ruby, your host,” on it. I said, “Are you Jack Ruby?” He
said, “Yes; come on over to the club if you get a chance--you can have
some drinks”--or something like that--“there are girls there.” And then
he disappeared. Naturally I had other things on my mind at the time. I
must have put the card in my pocket. And----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Can you describe his mood? Was it
straightforward, was it somber, businesslike, was it exhilarated?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I would not call it exhilarated. I would say that he
was in a very animated mood. He moved quickly, and he spoke quickly. Of
course, I cannot tell you what his mood is, because I don’t know the
man. Maybe this is the way he is naturally. Maybe when he is in a mood
he is somber. I don’t know. But to me he appeared very worked up by the
happenings, by the activity, by the people, by the reporters, by the
cameras, by the flashguns, and everything else. He seemed, as I said
before, very animated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have the card that he gave you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; I don’t have it personally. I have it--someone has it.
It is a magazine editor who is keeping it. He wanted to see it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after Jack left you?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I still had to get Henry Wade. He was on the
telephone, on this long interview. I was trying to get him over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you calling to Wade, or making any indication?
Mr. PAPPAS. He knew I wanted him on the phone.
Then it was awhile, and he had some other people to talk to. Then I
think he had another phone call. Anyway, he was occupied, and Ruby came
back. He darted past me again. I was still in this frustrated--this
look on my face. He said, “What’s the matter?” I said, “I am trying
to get Henry Wade over to the telephone.” He said, “Do you want me to
get him?” I said, “Well, if you can, certainly, I can use any help I
can get. I don’t know the area.” At least these are the thoughts going
through my mind. I don’t know whether I said that to him or not. But
I said, “Yes, I would like to have him over here.” And he went around
the desk, over to Henry Wade on the telephone. I don’t know what they
said to each other, but Ruby pointed over to me, and Henry looked up,
and then Ruby came back and he just left. I don’t know whether he said
it will be okay, or what, but he just darted out again, out of the
enclosure. And in a short while, Henry Wade finished up his telephone
conversation and came over to my phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby didn’t actually accompany Wade over, then?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t think he waited.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it that you don’t have any recollection of it, or do
you feel certain----
Mr. PAPPAS. I am sure Henry Wade came over by himself, because Henry
was on the phone for several minutes after Ruby spoke to him. I imagine
he was wrapping up his conversation before coming over to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened when Wade came over?
Mr. PAPPAS. I did the interview with him to New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that interview?
Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think so, because this was not done on my tape
recorder, as I said. I think we have a copy of a portion of it, because
when it did get up to New York--I don’t know really whether it was used
on the air or not. I imagine it was. And when we do use them, we edit
them down. So I believe we have all of our tapes from last year. And if
it was used, we have it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the telephone number that you called in New York?
Mr. PAPPAS. MO 1-3621.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a collect call?
Mr. PAPPAS. It was--I could not tell you, I am not sure. I think it had
to be, because I could not call directly from the phone. I would say I
assume it was collect. I cannot recall whether I called collect or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a credit card?
Mr. PAPPAS. No; we reverse the charges usually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished the interview with Wade?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, then he disappeared and I went out back into the
lineup room where the Justice of the Peace Johnston, was holding an
interview with other reporters, and he was reading the initial charge,
I believe, against Oswald, to us. And I did an interview with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby there at that time?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do after that?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, after that I went--I got through with Johnston, and
then I went over to a radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. KLIF, yes. I forget what time this was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--how did you get into KLIF?
Mr. PAPPAS. I rang the bell downstairs, I believe, knocked on the door.
Somebody came down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do when you got in there?
Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I had to prepare a lot of material for the morning. I
had a lot of tape to feed to New York. And I worked.