it pretty well as far as we are concerned. One final question, then.
You and I have not had any off-the-record conversations, or prior
conversations before we began taking your deposition, have we?
Mr. PAPPAS. Only when you wanted to finish your coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When I saw you out in the hallway and asked you to wait a
few minutes?
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But we did not discuss anything pertaining to your
testimony at that point?
Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any further questions. I want to thank you
very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us. The tape
recording and the photographs which you have provided in the past have
been of considerable use to us.
Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you for having me here, and I hope I have been of
some help in getting to the bottom of all of this.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. McCULLOUGH
The testimony of John G. McCullough was taken at 11 a.m., on July 29,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel, and Stuart Pollak, staff member, of the
President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the advisory staff to the general counsel of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
It is our normal practice before deposing a witness to explain a little
bit about what the Commission is about. I think you will find most of
what I have to say you are well aware of.
As you probably know, the Commission was established pursuant to
an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of
Congress. Under those two official acts, the Commission was directed to
investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee
Harvey Oswald, and to report back to President Johnson, to find out all
the facts it is able to determine.
We have asked you to come here today in particular because you were in
Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November, and because you did have
occasion to see Jack Ruby on one of those days.
I might also indicate that under the rules and regulations that have
been established by the Commission, I have been specifically designated
to take your deposition.
Also under these rules, you are entitled to a 3-day notice in writing
before you appear here. We did send you a letter, I believe. I don’t
know when you received it.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I received the letter 3 days ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I might note for the record at this point Mr.
Stuart Pollak has just walked in. Do you have any questions that you
would like to ask?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. None at all. I think I am familiar with the purpose of
the Commission, and the reason for my being here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will raise your right hand, I will administer the
oath to you.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. John G. McCullough.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. 6345 Woodbine Avenue, Philadelphia, Pa.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By whom are you employed?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The Philadelphia Bulletin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you employed by the Bulletin in November of 1963?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I was; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your employment with the Bulletin, did
you go to Dallas after President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went to Dallas within an hour after President Kennedy
was shot, and arrived in Dallas by plane about 7 p.m., Dallas time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas? Where did you go
first?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Do you want me to just continue?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went immediately to the Dallas Municipal Building,
and to the police headquarters. I am uncertain now of exactly what
floor this was on. I stayed at the police headquarters floor of the
building for 6 or 7 hours, since this was the scene of the operations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on that floor continuously during that period, or
were there times when you were off?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There were times when I was off the floor, to use the
telephone, or to consult with other members of the Bulletin staff who
were also on assignment in Dallas. But most of the time I was on the
floor and in a narrow corridor outside the room in which principals in
the assassination of the President and the subsequent events were being
questioned by Dallas police officials. And I believe by members of the
Federal agencies.
I was not alone. There were at least 50 other reporters along
this narrow corridor. It was around midnight, to the best of my
recollection, when they brought a man who police told us was Lee Harvey
Oswald into an interrogation room. Trying to get a look at the physical
setup inside this room. I stood briefly on a metal ashtray that was on
the corridor. And coming down from this metal ashtray, I hit with my
right elbow a man who was standing beside me. I apologized for bumping
into the man and expressed the hope that I had not struck his notes,
assuming he was another reporter. He explained to me that he was not
a reporter, that he was a businessman in Dallas, and I noted then
that he was carrying a box. I would guess it was about 8 inches to a
foot square. And the reason I remember it is on one side, in white
lettering, on a blue background, was the word “Alpacuna.” It struck me
as odd, that a reporter would be carrying a box. And then, of course,
when he explained he was a businessman I took a good look at him,
because I think reporters get annoyed--because there were enough of
us in the corridor without outsiders being there. I mentioned this to
another member of the Bulletin staff later, and then discovered after
the shooting of Oswald, the man I had bumped into that night was Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you some questions about this. You mentioned
that you were trying to look into an interrogation room.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this meeting with the man you think was Ruby, did it
occur on the third floor of the police department?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I am not certain--on whatever floor the police
department offices are located. There is a whole string of them. There
is a homicide squad, robbery, theft units. I believe it was on the
third floor. It was not the upper floors. There were floors above. I am
fairly certain it was the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was on the floor that the detective bureaus were on?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is correct; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what particular detective bureau or interrogation
room were you looking into at the time?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There, again, I have to go on the basis of
recollection, but I believe it was the homicide squad. The officers
immediately involved with the investigation had been moving in and out
of that particular door for hours, bringing in, for instance, a bus
driver, a taxicab driver--at least from the clothing they wore. At one
point Oswald’s mother, at another point his wife were in and out of
this room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Lee Oswald that you were trying to get a look at?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Actually, I knew I could not see him. I just was
wondering whether it was one large room or a maze of partitioned
offices, so I could describe it in the story I had planned to write.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I wanted to ask you is was the thing that
prompted your getting up on this ashtray the fact that Lee Oswald had
been taken into that room?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is correct; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall a press conference that Henry Wade held
down in the basement some time that evening?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this event which you are now describing, in which you
climbed up on the ashtray--did that occur before or after the press
conference?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The event that I described, stepping up on the ashtray
momentarily, happened several hours prior to the press conference held
by District Attorney Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you arrive at the conclusion that it was several
hours?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, there, again, I have to go on recollection. But
there was this much time ensued. In other words, after meeting the
man that I believed to be Ruby, I stayed for a long period--I would
estimate 2 hours, before the press conference was held.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Lee Oswald was brought down into that
interrogation room again between the time you saw the man you think is
Ruby, and the time that Henry Wade held his press conference in the
basement?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. He was brought out of the interrogation room. I don’t
recall that he was brought back into it before the press conference was
held.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you up on the third floor at the time that--just
shortly before the press conference was held?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall, were you there when Henry Wade and,
I think, Captain Fritz, and perhaps Chief Curry, walked out of the
homicide room, just before everybody went down into the basement? Do
you recall that?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I do. I believe that I was in an opening, or
at the main corridor, at the bay near the elevators, when the three
officers you mentioned, the three officials you mentioned, walked along
and said there would be a press conference.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that at that time, or just before Chief
Curry and Fritz and Wade came out, that Lee Oswald had been in the
homicide office?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. In other words, Oswald had been in the homicide
office before I again saw those three officials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is whether you recall that Fritz and
Curry came out of that homicide office just after something had taken
place in there with Oswald.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; this I do not recall--whether there was any
immediacy involved there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this question, then: Are you clear in your
mind that the occasion on which you saw Ruby was a substantial period
of time before the occasion when Fritz and Curry came out?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. However, I might add that certainly Fritz, and
I believe to a lesser extent Curry were in and out of that room many
times. I mean it was not just one movement into the room, and then a
long period of time, and a final movement out by those two officers.
They were moving in and out at different times during the evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe we can work at the time that you saw the
man you think is Ruby from the other end. That is, focusing on your
activities shortly after you arrived at the police station. You say you
arrived in Dallas about 7, and you went directly to the police station.
So I assume that you got there somewhere around 7:30. Did you check
into a hotel first?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; we checked into a hotel immediately across the
street from the police station, municipal building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up there in the police department, did
anything occur between the time you arrived and the time you saw the
man that you think was Ruby that is significant in your mind that we
might use to pinpoint time here?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; except that there was, again, a period of time
ensuing between my arrival at the police headquarters and my seeing
Ruby, and that would have been occupied on my part by trying to talk
to the police officials and trying to get, I believe, to see Wade and
interviewing just everyone I could get ahold of who knew anything at
all about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw the man you believed was Ruby, did he
indicate to you what kind of business he was in?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; he didn’t say what kind of business. This is what
made the box stay in my mind. I assumed he was a shirt merchant or
something, or that it was a sweater. And there, again, the reason for
my remembering him was a bit of annoyance on my part that there was
outsiders in that row, when it was terribly crowded.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this look like the kind of box one would carry clothes
or shirts or sweaters in?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Only because I in my own mind related the word Alpacuna
to some sort of textile trade name. I had never seen the name before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what Alpacuna is. Have you subsequently
learned?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; and the man at the time was wearing, I believe it
is called, a porkpie hat, and he had a topcoat. This, I remembered,
because most of the reporters were not wearing topcoats, and certainly
were not wearing hats.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a topcoat did he have on?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. It was a dark blue topcoat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you rubbed elbows with this man, what was his
response in the sense of--was it a polite gentlemanly response?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. It was a smile. And the explanation, as I said, that he
was not a newspaperman, and that he was a businessman. In other words,
he indicated there was no need to apologize, that I had not struck
his notes or made him scribble. And he, as everyone along there, was
starting into this door, waiting to see what would happen next.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not see him at the press conference at which
Oswald appeared. However, the fact that he was there and wearing the
same clothing was told me later by a police judge who was present at
that press conference.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Justice of the Peace David Johnston?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. I went to his office the following day in another
part of--actually in a suburb of Dallas, to follow up the story. And--I
am sorry, it was not the following day. It must have been Monday,
when it was then clear that the man who shot Oswald was Ruby. And I
mentioned to Johnston that I had bumped into this man. And the police
judge said, that he, too, had seen him at the press conference, and
that Ruby had approached him and handed him a card, a gray card,
advertising the club that he operated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a clear recollection that Johnston said that
Ruby was wearing an overcoat?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This I don’t--I have no clear recollection, but I did
mention the clothing, the hat, and Johnston said that this was the
same--the hat I did mention.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. But I don’t remember whether or not I mentioned the
topcoat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see what sort of clothes the man you
believe was Ruby had on under the topcoat?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I could not see that. However, after the jostling,
after I had jostled him, we did stand together, I would guess, for 5 or
10 minutes. There was no further exchange, conversation between us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him attempt to talk or talk with other people?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not notice; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the assembly room, where Henry Wade
had his press conference, do you recall where you were standing in
relationship to Wade and the front of the room?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; it is a large room with tables and benches. I
would have been to the left side of the room facing what was a standup
box, a police lineup box, a screen police lineup box, and some distance
back, about one quarter of the distance back--in other words, I was not
immediately in the front.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say the left side of the room----
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Facing this police lineup box, and there was a small
stage, a foot perhaps in elevation from the floor level.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I have already asked you, when you were down
there, you did not see this same man again?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not see Ruby again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after the Henry Wade press conference
ended?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I stayed there for perhaps a half hour talking to other
reporters. Of course, Oswald himself was brought into the room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. And someone put a microphone in his face. He said
something about his civil rights being violated. He was taken out. We
talked to Wade. He gave us some information. When Wade left, we talked
to various--there, again, it was just a general attempt to interview
everyone and anyone who knew anything at all about the offense. And I
would guess that after about an hour, I went back to the hotel. I am
sorry that I am fuzzy on the times, but I have not used my notes to
recollect or jog my memory on all these things. I perhaps should have.
But I haven’t had an opportunity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have your notes with you now?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I do not. They would be in the office. I used a
regular spiral notebook, and kept pretty full notes. However, I did
give a statement to the two agents from the FBI of the Philadelphia
office, within a few days after my return to Philadelphia. This would
have been before the end of November and the times would, of course,
have been a great deal clearer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you use your notes in the course of that interview?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the press conference room for a
substantial period of time after Henry Wade left, or did you follow out
and do something?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I would say between a half hour and an hour. In other
words, when all of the police officials and other municipal officials
of Dallas left, there was no one else to talk to, so I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the police department that
night, then?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, it would have been from perhaps 8 p.m. Dallas
time, Friday night, November 22, until perhaps somewhere between 2 and
3 a.m. of the Saturday following, November 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is it your best recollection that you returned
to the police department during the day on Saturday?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Probably about 10 a.m., and I say that again without
any vivid recollection, but because of the fact that we are an
afternoon paper and we are publishing in that period. And this was my
assignment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall what you were doing and whether you
were at the police department between approximately 2 in the afternoon
on Saturday and 6 in the evening?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; this I cannot recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the police department some time Sunday
morning?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went to the police department Sunday morning at about
9:30 a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you station yourself?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went first to--again--to the police headquarters
offices on the third floor, and then went down to the basement garage
after it was explained to me that Oswald would be moved to the basement
garage level in a special elevator serving the cell block, and would
be taken from the basement level, put in a vehicle, and taken to the
county prison.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long before Oswald actually came out did you go
down into the basement?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There, again, it is a guess. I would say an hour, an
hour and a half. I was there quite a long time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were standing at the time that
Oswald was shot?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; this I recall very clearly, because I stood on
a guard railing protecting a ramp leading to a parking level in the
garage. This was a metal railing perhaps 2 feet high, and I stood there
supporting myself against a very wide concrete pillar to get a better
look at what was going on. There were so many people there, it was
difficult to get a decent look, because of my height.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar--as you are down there in that basement,
and you are standing on that guard railing, looking toward the jail
office--that Commerce Street is on your left, or to the south, and Main
Street is on your right, or to the north?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I am not too familiar with the streets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you a sheet of paper. Why don’t you draw a
diagram of that basement, and see if we cannot locate you in reference
most particularly to the ramp and the jail office.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This on an overall basis would be the municipal
building. This cross section would be the basement level. Leading into
the garage section of the basement is a door. And this section right
here is, I think it is called, the police check-in room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jail office?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to write in there “Jail Office” where that
is?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There is a door then leading into the corridor. This is
the ramp. It is a slight grade, leading down to the parking levels on
either side of the ramp. There are several large pillars, I guess over
2 feet square, concrete pillars, along here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to write in there what is the ramp that the
automobiles come in from the streets.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. These would be--as a matter of fact, this is the in
lane, and this is the out lane.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have drawn an arrow indicating the in lane which is
Main Street, if you want to write that in.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I didn’t know the names of the streets there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, the out, or up ramp is Commerce Street.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I was there for a sufficiently long time, for instance,
that there were very few reporters there when I arrived. The police
officers on duty asked me several times for credentials, which I
showed. I was there while they went into parked police cars and removed
from the parked police cars weapons which they took somewhere into the
jail office. I was there when they backed in an armored car from the
Commerce Street exit. They could not get it very far back because of
overhead ducts, the heating ducts serving the building. So they had to
leave the armored car virtually at the exit. It was parked then on an
incline.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The railing that I mentioned leads along this ramp,
and actually it is two metal bars. And I stood on the upper metal bar,
leaning against this pillar. In other words, my position would have
been here, where I am putting this “X.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me state for the record that you have marked a
position on the railing which is along what I will call the entrance to
the garage. You might write “garage” there. And it is not the railing
that is actually on the Commerce Street ramp, or Main Street ramp.
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Actually--that is right. I was immediately against the
pillar. In other words, I was using the pillar for support.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the Commerce Street side of the garage?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you stood up there on that pillar, or on that
railing, do you remember an automobile coming out of the garage and
coming up the Main Street ramp just shortly before Oswald came out?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I do not. I remember one car coming out of the
parking level and heading toward the Commerce Street ramp, and parking
there. Because, for awhile I feared--had it not moved forward, it
would have blocked my vision. But it did move forward slightly toward
Commerce Street, and then it did give me a clear view.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ability you had to see from the
position that you were at up to the top of the Main Street ramp, and to
distinguish faces and figures?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This would have been very limited. I made no effort to
look in that direction.
Mr. GRIFFIN. My real question is do you recall----
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I don’t recall. I may add--the area along the
inner part of the ramp, that is the part of the ramp closest to the
parking garage, and nearest to Main Street, was pretty well taken up by
television cameras, the heavy rolling type, rather than the hand type
of equipment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any initial instructions that were given
to the press people in the basement, as to where they were to station
themselves?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; we were told by several police officers--as a
matter of fact, from the first moment of my entry into this area, I was
told that we were to station ourselves along the ramp, not too close
to the exits, and once we were told that Oswald was on his way down,
that we were not to move at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any instruction being given that you were to
remain on the garage side of the railings that border the automobile
ramp?
Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I don’t recall any such instructions, because at one
point. I was standing against a wall, which would be the side of the
ramp away from the garage area, and closer to Commerce Street. But I
left that, there again, because I had no vision--there was nothing I
could see from that particular point.