who were on guard, and one of them says he recalls a man, who says he
recognized Ruby, that he recalls a man who looks like Ruby, but it
wasn’t Ruby, come up and do what you have previously described to the
FBI, and go on. Would that shake your judgment in any way?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No. I don’t, of course, claim that I cannot make a
mistake. In my judgment, the man I saw was Jack Ruby. I know no one
else who looks like that. Obviously, I could have been mistaken, but I
don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you think Jack Ruby, the man you think was
Jack Ruby, what you recall him doing.
Mr. ROBERTSON. He walked up to the door of Captain Fritz’ office and
put his hand on the knob and started to open it. He had the door open
a few inches and began to step into the room, and the two officers
stopped him. I was reasonably certain one of them, or some voice at
that time had said, “You can’t go in there, Jack.” And the man in
question, if it was not Jack Ruby, turned around and passed some joking
remarks with a couple of people who were there, I don’t know who, and
went back down the hall toward the elevator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how Jack Ruby was dressed on that occasion?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No. All I saw was his head; as you know, he is a
comparatively short man. I saw him through a break over some people’s
shoulder, and all I saw was about, well, from the shoulders. Not all of
the shoulders, but a portion of the shoulders, the neck and the head.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him; did you get a full front face view of him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No. He was in profile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing in relationship to the homicide
door and the main elevator, public elevator?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I was standing almost immediately opposite Captain
Fritz’ door. Perhaps a matter of 2 feet beyond it toward the pressroom,
which is opposite, the opposite direction of the elevators. As this
happened, I stepped closer, and ultimately was on the elevator side of
Captain Fritz’ door about the middle of the hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby on down the hall to see where he went?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many feet he would have walked before he
got out of sight?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No. He was out of my sight almost instantly in that
melee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you say he walked on down the hall, could it have
been that he just walked a few feet and stopped?
Mr. ROBERTSON. It could have been; that’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him come back down the hall in the other
direction?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at your position after you saw
Ruby?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I have no idea. Considerable length of time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you standing there for?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Trying to get a chance to talk to Bill Alexander.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Alexander inside Fritz’ office at that time?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I wasn’t certain whether he was at that time or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you subsequently find out he was in there?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I subsequently saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I saw him coming out of Captain Fritz’ office later. But
now I have no idea how much later. I don’t know whether he had gone in
in the meantime, or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you may have walked away and come back?
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think Alexander was inside Fritz’ office?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Somebody had said so; I assume.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that if we knew when Alexander was at the police
station, we might have a more accurate estimate?
Mr. ROBERTSON. He was in and out several times throughout the evening.
As a matter of fact, I saw him three or four times up until late in the
evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you saw Ruby, do you recall any of the other
news representatives who were around there?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No. There was a whole hall full, and I recall some of
the people who were in the hall, but not necessarily in connection with
that particular instant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe that the first time you were interviewed by
the FBI was on January 17, 1964. Do you recall being interviewed by an
FBI agent by the name of Scott?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe they called me and asked when I could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, had they had any information that you had
seen Ruby up there?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that there did come a time after these events
occurred that you made a radio tape recounting your experiences of the
3 days?
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that tape made? I don’t ask for the exact date,
but approximately.
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know. At the time this question arose and the
Commission asked the FBI if they would look into it further, Agent
Drain contacted us and we tried to recall at that time precisely
when the tape had been made, and couldn’t do so. To the best of our
recollection, it was sometime around the first of the year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would your best estimate be that at least a month passed
before you made this tape?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Sunday, November 24, after Ruby shot Oswald, did
you report to anybody in your station that you had seen Ruby?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell that to?
Mr. ROBERTSON. To Walter Evans.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this used in any way as part of a newscast?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I doubt that it would have been used for a newscast. I
had been under the impression that I had mentioned it in connection
with a wrap-up broadcast that we had done shortly after the events,
within a week or so. When all of this came up, I mentioned that, and
Walter said that he recollects it was not included in that, and I
believe he checked the material. But I had thought we had. I thought I
talked about it at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you think back over how your own recollection of this
event has evolved, have there been any changes in your mind about, in
other words, as you first reported this to Evans? Has there been any
difference in your conception of what had happened when you reported on
it to Evans, as opposed to what it is now in your mind?
Mr. ROBERTSON. You mean have the events or descriptions changed any?
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I mean to say is, very often the first time we think
about this, we will describe it in one way, and then as we think about
it and talk about it again, why in our own mind it changes and our
description changes. Has that happened in connection with this event at
all?
Mr. ROBERTSON. If it has, I am not aware of it. The only way in which
I would say some sort of mutation of this sort has taken place is
that, looking back from this perspective, I don’t feel so greatly that
thundering herd in the hall as I did at that time. I am further removed
and it seems more of an abstraction. It was at the time, frankly
indescribable, in my judgment. But other than that, I can’t recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned when you talked with one of the FBI agents
that in the time you had seen Ruby, you had seen him bawling out his
fellow employees. Can you give us some specific instances of that?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I remember one particular--I am sorry I can’t say
when--I can’t even say which girl it was--and I recall I only heard
a portion of the conversation. Apparently the girl had been running
around with someone of whom Jack didn’t approve, and the gist of the
conversation, as I understood it at the time, and this was fragmentary,
was you either leave this guy alone or find some place else to work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if you know any of these people. Do you
know Ruby’s stripper, Little Lynn?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know her before November 22?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Not as far as I know. I don’t know her now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his stripper, Kathy Kay?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know his roommate, George Senator?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I never met Senator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you downtown at all on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any information which might indicate how
Ruby got into the police department on Sunday morning?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I heard one story, and I have no idea whether there is
any validity to it or not. The story I heard was that he had gained
entrance to the basement by helping a camera crew push a camera down
the ramp, that he had attached himself to the crew pushing the camera,
and got in that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything that would indicate that any
police officer gave him any assistance or any advice?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a
copy of the interview report that the FBI made after talking with
you. The first one is a report made by Special Agent Paul Scott of an
interview he had with you on January 17, 1964, and it consists of three
pages, and are numbered at the bottom of the page, 10, 11, and 12,
and I am going to mark this at the top “Victor Robertson, Deposition,
July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.” I would like you to look at it, Mr.
Robertson, and read it over and tell me if there are any changes
or corrections that you would make in it. I really have particular
reference to whether or not that is an accurate report of what you said
at the time.
Mr. ROBERTSON (after reading report). The only comment I would make
about the report is that where it says, “While at Houston Street with
Hugh Aynesworth, a WFAA photographer, he heard on a police radio that
Officer Tippit had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he and Aynesworth
proceeded to Oak Cliff.” Aynesworth was not the photographer. There
were two separate people. The other thing I would comment on is, in the
second paragraph, Mr. Scott reports accurately that I had seen Ruby,
and said sometime possibly between 5 and 7 p.m., which is what I told
him and was my best judgment as to the time, although it may have been
slightly somewhere between 3:15 and 7 or 8 p.m. That is what I told him
and I answered to my best judgment on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In light of the conversation that we have had today, is
that still your best judgment or would you narrow it in some other way?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I can’t narrow it. The only thing that I can do is
really broaden it to be sure that it is comprehensive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the latest you would place it at?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe the latest possibly would have been 7 or 7:30
p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as Victor Robertson’s
Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. This is a document that
consists of two pages, and it is an interview report by FBI Agent
Vincent E. Drain, of an interview he had with you on June 9, 1964. I
ask you to read it and comment on that in the same way that you did on
the first one.
Mr. ROBERTSON (after reading report). The only comment I would make on
this is at the end of the second paragraph. Mr. Drain has stated that
the first time Ruby was mentioned by him was on a portion of the time
that he reported in late December, 1963, etc., etc. This apparently is
Vincent’s report of the consensus that was true at the time. As I said,
I mentioned to him I thought I had had it in the earlier broadcast, but
Walter Evans said it had not been. The other observation I would make
is that I don’t recall having said between 5 and 6 o’clock. I thought I
had said between 5 and 7.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you then if you will sign each of
these exhibits up near the top where I have marked them.
Mr. ROBERTSON. Is this all right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any place that is conspicuous.
Mr. ROBERTSON (initials).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your taking out this
time.
Mr. ROBERTSON. My pleasure. If there is anything else I can do, let me
know.
TESTIMONY OF FREDERIC RHEINSTEIN
The testimony of Frederic Rheinstein was taken at 10:30 a.m., on July
22, 1964, at 120 Linden Avenue, Long Beach, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A.
Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Frederic Rheinstein, called as a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Frederic Rheinstein.
Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to give your testimony in this
matter, haven’t you, by a letter? Did you receive a letter?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You haven’t been advised of the rules of the Commission?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, you are willing to testify, though, aren’t you?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I am.
Mr. BALL. The purpose of the Commission is to investigate into the
facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and in the
course of that investigation there is also an investigation into the
murder of Oswald at the police station in Dallas.
Now, what is your occupation?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I am a producer-director for NBC News.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with NBC News?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, I have been with NBC 15 years, and with NBC News
about 8.
Mr. BALL. And what is your age?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Thirty-six.
Mr. BALL. What was your education before you went with NBC?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I have a bachelor of arts degree from Princeton
University.
Mr. BALL. And you went with NBC after your graduation?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. 4906 Encino Avenue, Encino, Calif.
Mr. BALL. Were you in Dallas on the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Starting at approximately 5 o’clock Dallas time.
Mr. BALL. And that was on a Friday, was it not?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you commence broadcasting about that time?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. From WBAP Fort Worth, Tex., which is the NBC affiliate
for the Dallas area.
Mr. BALL. And at any time later did you go over to Dallas with a sound
truck?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Very early Saturday morning we took a WBAP remote
television truck to the city jail in Dallas, I would guess at
approximately 7:30 in the morning.
Mr. BALL. Where did you park the truck, just describe it in general?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Approximately in front of the entrance to the city hall
and directly adjacent to the ramp to the police department basement.
Mr. BALL. That’s good enough.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. With the front of the truck facing the Hilton Hotel.
Mr. BALL. Now, it was reported that during the day a man was around
your sound truck, you saw him around there several times, and that you
noticed him particularly because he was there around your sound truck
three or four times; is that right?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then later on, the next day, on Saturday when you saw his
picture----
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Excuse me, Sunday.
Mr. BALL. On Sunday?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. On Sunday when you saw his picture you thought that you
identified him as the man who had been around your truck; is that right?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. And who was that?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That was Jack Ruby.
Mr. BALL. In other words, it’s your impression that you saw Jack Ruby
around your sound truck on Saturday, November the 23d?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. About when is the first time that you saw him there?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. To the best of my recollection, I would say it was late
morning.
Mr. BALL. Before lunch?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Before lunch.
Mr. BALL. And just tell in your own words what you noticed then and
what he did and what you saw.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. My initial impression of Ruby was that a man, whom we
later identified as Ruby, put his head through the open window of our
remote truck very near the television monitors and was interestedly
watching the pictures on the monitor. He caused me to look up because
in putting his head through the window he put aside a curtain allowing
light into the otherwise darkened truck.
Mr. BALL. How close were you to him at that time?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say about 3 feet. No more than 3 feet. He made
no impression, because there had been several other people who had done
this; not a large number of people, but it was an irritant, so his face
became fixed. Do you want me to go on?
Mr. BALL. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Subsequently, in walking around outside the truck later
I saw the same man, and I believe in person twice more and I believe I
saw him during the day on our television monitors, which were not at
the time necessarily being broadcast, although they were being taped
possibly back in Fort Worth, but the electronic cameras are on all the
time and this man passed by. He was later pointed out----
Mr. BALL. By “passed by,” you mean on the sidewalk?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No; in the corridors.
Mr. BALL. Oh, in the corridors?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. In the corridors.
Mr. BALL. What floor?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had cameras on the third floor and cameras on the
ground floor.
Mr. BALL. Now, you believe----
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say both times when we saw him he was on the
third floor.
Mr. BALL. And he passed the cameras?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. And that was during the daytime or evening?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would all be during the daytime on Saturday.
Mr. BALL. And would that be in the morning or the afternoon that you
saw him?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. It would be in the morning and in the afternoon. The
most pointed appearance, or the most memorable appearance of his
followed an incident that took place thusly--do you want me to go ahead?
Mr. BALL. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. An unidentified WBAP engineer alleged that the man
we had seen around the truck, subsequently identified as Ruby, had
taken one of the fried chicken dinners which had been brought into the
truck for the WBAP crew. This allegation was made when he was seen on
the third floor going into an office in which District Attorney Henry
Wade was purportedly working. The reason this was significant was that
reporters had not been permitted inside that office, and this man whom
the cameraman pointed out as the same one who had earlier been around
the truck had gained access where newsmen had been unable to gain
access.
Mr. BALL. Now, would that be after lunch?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would be after lunch, because this was all tied up
with he being the fellow who allegedly took the fried chicken dinner.
Mr. BALL. And you had ordered the fried chicken for your lunch, had you?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had ordered 14 fried chicken dinners to feed the
group.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, this incident, then, must have occurred in
the afternoon of the 23d of November?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.
Mr. BALL. And did you see it on your screen?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I saw the man who I am reasonably certain was Ruby go
into a door where Henry Wade purportedly was. I did not see him come
out.
Mr. BALL. He went in, but you didn’t see him come out?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. He went in. He was later reported to have come out and
he was followed in about 10 minutes by District Attorney Wade who then
became available for questioning by newsmen.
Mr. BALL. Was it reported or did anybody tell you, any of your men tell
you why this man had gone into Wade’s office?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. The cameraman and stage manager reported to me on the
earphones that this man, who was never, by the way, identified by name,
always referred to as “the creep who was down at the truck,” had told
them that he knew Wade personally and he could get some information for
us or he could get him to come out and talk to us. Both during that
day and, of course, during the following days, in discussions with the
newsmen around there, there seems no question about the fact that the
most distinguishing thing about Ruby was his desire to be friendly with
the press and also to indicate that he had an entree--not necessarily
influence, but an entree into the police rooms and premises at city
hall.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see him later that day in or around your truck?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. The last time we would have seen him--the last time I
saw him either in person or on the television screen was when he walked
in the door where Wade allegedly was.
Mr. BALL. And that was in the afternoon?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would be in the afternoon; right.
Mr. BALL. Before dinnertime?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Oh, yes; it would have been, because we left there at
5:30, to go to WBAP to continue broadcasting.
Mr. BALL. Then it would have been before 5 that you saw him go into
Wade’s office?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes; I would say so. Certainly before 6.
Mr. BALL. And how many times do you think you saw him on the street, on
the sidewalk?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say once on the sidewalk, once in the truck--or
once poking his face into the truck, and twice with our cameras.
Mr. BALL. And the entire span of time, then, was sometime late in the
morning until not later than 5 in the afternoon?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Five to six; right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you mentioned the fact that you didn’t know this man’s
name that you saw these several times.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No; I didn’t.
Mr. BALL. And the next day you did alone identify the picture of Ruby
as the man you had seen the day before, or were there some others who
agreed with you that they had seen him?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. There were a good number of the men of the same crew
that identified him.
Mr. BALL. Tell me, when was it that you did identify him, tell me the
circumstances.
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We identified him--the first time we took a good look
at his face, at his picture, was a mug shot which was a front and
profile shot which somebody obtained while still wet on the third
floor of the Dallas Police Department, and our reporter was Pettit,
Tom Pettit, and he held the mug shot in front of the electronic camera
where it was transmitted to a tape machine where it was taped, and
on both looking at it at the first time and on subsequent replays of
the tape we were certain that this was the man we had seen around the
truck. We certainly had his name almost immediately, because as soon
as he was shot a number of people recognized him and we got the name
right to our reporter, who was actually there while he was shot, which
was Tom Pettit.
Mr. BALL. Then the first time you heard his name was on Sunday after
the shooting?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had his name about 10 minutes or less than 10
minutes after he shot him, actually. NBC did, and we were late because
we were all out-of-towners.
Mr. BALL. Then when you saw the mug shot, when your group saw the mug
shot on a replay of the tape you knew the name of the man?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, how many of you were around the camera or how many of
you saw the mug shot?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would guess the discussion was had with about four or
five people. Basically the men who work in the truck. And, I’m sorry, I
can get the names of the men who were there for you, but I----
Mr. BALL. You don’t have the names now?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. There are too many trucks and too many things. There
would be a switcher and a director and a video engineer and an audio
man.
Mr. BALL. They were all Fort Worth people, were they?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. All WBAP, Fort Worth, and they were the same group who
had been with us constantly. And there was a technical supervisor who
also was there. I can put their faces to you, but I can’t give you
their names.
Mr. BALL. You don’t remember their names. Now, I will turn to another
subject, Mr. Rheinstein. Did you go in the police building on Saturday
and on Sunday?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You weren’t there on Sunday, were you?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were at the police building on Sunday?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, I had two mobile units on Sunday morning because
they were moving him from the city to the county. I started at the
city, made sure the cameras were all in place and----
Mr. BALL. That’s in the basement of the city hall?