Bill Rainbow. No, I didn’t leave. No, I stayed there. Pauline and that
New York reporter----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Underwood? Ike Pappas?
Mrs. GRANT. No. I think his name is something like Denson or Jensen. I
think he said New York Times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time were you watching television when your brother
shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. I got up early in the morning. I took
a pill. I freshened up myself. I didn’t get dressed into my clothes.
I went back into the bed. Then I decided to get out, and I turned on
television, and all I saw is important people passing the coffin on
television, people from all over the world.
I started to put on water, and I didn’t feel good, and I was listening,
and then all of a sudden they started, they changed the scene
themselves, and I saw a guy with, it seems to me a three-quarters
length coat with glasses and a lot of hair, and he is talking, and is
mumbling.
Mr. BURLESON. Tom?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know who to this very day. I don’t know who they
were talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was on the occasion----
Mrs. GRANT. This was after 11 o’clock now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But this was how you learned that Jack had shot Oswald?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. My phone rang, and I heard this guy
say--this may be twisting the words around. “There has been a little
excitement here,” and he stopped and he says. “I think they shot
Oswald.”
And my phone rang. Leonard Wood was talking to me on the phone. This
is all in--whether he was listening to another station, or something,
I don’t know, and he is talking to me, and what do you think I said to
him, I said, “Leonard, you don’t call me every day. Now don’t tell me,
‘How do you feel, Mrs. Grant?’”
“Fine. Do you know where Jack is at?”
And I said, “No.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Leonard tried to call Jack in the morning?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, don’t ask me that. I want to tell you. I don’t know
what he tried to do.
Now, we talked about different things, and then he was almost gone, and
hanging on, and he said, “Are you watching television, Mrs. Grant?”
And I said, “Yes.”
I was watching, but I wasn’t listening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon did you learn that Oswald had been shot?
Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you how many phone calls I got. This is one
for the books. I am talking to him, and I finally said, “Now, listen,
Leonard”--I figured he was trying to find Jack to get some money. I
said, “Now, listen, Leonard, you know things have been pretty rough in
the club, and you got $10 either last night or the night before.”
And he said, “I don’t want any money.” And he said, “Are you all right?”
And I said, “Yes.”
See, he probably--I never got to talk to Leonard. I wish he would come
to see me. I don’t know whether he knew of something or what, and he
was hemming and hawing over the phone, I didn’t get a chance to put the
phone down a second, not a second. The phone rang and Andy said, “Mrs.
Grant, this is Andy. Where is Jack? Is Jack with you?”
And I said, “No. He is at home.”
He said, “No, he is not at home.”
I said, “Listen, you know when Jack takes a shower--ring him again.”
And he said, “I rang four or five times.”
I said, “Hang up and call again.”
And he said, “Mrs. Grant, I rang.”
I said, “If he is in the bathroom, he isn’t going to hear the phone.”
And we talked--I don’t know if he knew. I mean, this I found out he
knew.
I asked him about 2 weeks later, or a week later, and he knew about it.
Wait a minute, I am not through. The phone rang again, and I want to
tell you, you may know I put on water for boiling--Madeline Blainey was
on the phone.
By this time I got to the television. I only had to walk from there to
a few feet. I had it on that wall, maybe 9 feet, and I turned it up,
and this is what I heard, “John Logan, no Jack Luby.”
I wanted to back in the kitchen with the phone, and I wasn’t walking
too much, and I turned it down.
Madeline is on the phone and says, “How do you feel?”
And I said, “Fine.” I am talking to her, and I turned the damn thing
down.
I saw--this is rerun--if it is, I don’t know--I actually saw what the
other people saw. This is my conversation with Madeline and why they
never went to see her, I will never know.
I am watching it. “Don’t forget,” I said, you get the name, repeat the
two names. But I turned it down, because it was too close to the phone.
I wasn’t going to go out of the living room, and I wasn’t going to
eliminate one or the other. I wanted to be sure I know both things are
going on.
I said, “How are you,” and she said, “OK, who is there?”
And I said, “Who would be there.”
I am wearing my mu-mu my daughter-in-law sent me for Christmas, and
I wouldn’t dare let anyone in. I am shooting my mouth off about Joe
Johnson. I have a great admiration--he’s a colored boy been with us 8
years. He told me, “We had a fight, not 130 fights, but a fight.”
I said, “Madeline, I want to apologize for sort of neglecting you,”
because when I was in the hospital, Madeline and Joe came walking in
the very same time to visit me in the hospital. Here both walking in.
Madeline and I understand, but this is the guy we want as a band leader
to come back.
I said, “Joe, take a seat.”
I said, “Madeline, I hope you don’t resent me talking to Joe about his
children,” and we talk about his children, and he kept on talking.
She said, “Eva, I don’t want to be the one to tell you this. Do you
know who did the shooting?”
And I said, “No.”
She said, “Jack shot Oswald.”
That was the end of me. Now, I never hung up. I never turned my
television off. I remember these people, Jim Holland and his wife,
Margo, and a fellow who, these people live next door, Jim Reed--the
manager had gone away for the day, but I didn’t know it. As a rule, she
would have heard me. I didn’t know for 2 days that she wasn’t there
Sunday.
I ran to the door, and I don’t know what happened--this I tell you. In
the first place, no one ever told me. I thought they killed my brother
too.
All I know is, I was out of my mind. I ran to the door--I don’t usually
dress in this--in my mu-mu to meet strangers, but there was such a
knock on my door. There were minutes I can’t recall.
I will not tell you any stories. I don’t know exactly, before I knew
it, all I know there were photographers there--and your best guess is
to ask Pauline what took place, if you get in touch with her.
I go into the bathroom. I want to change, but instead, I had put a robe
on. This is what I think I done.
Whoever talked to me, I thought they said they killed Jack too. I don’t
know what took place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant, what you are telling us now can’t affect
your brother’s case in any way.
Mrs. GRANT. I am not trying to hide anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize, but I want to tell you--I realize you want to
tell us, and I am going to have to cut you off.
I want to explain to you that what you could tell us from here on,
since it is all after the fact, is not material relevant to the
shooting of Oswald. So, we are at the end really.
Let me ask you this question: Did you talk to your brother at all
about the President’s visit, expected visit to Dallas before President
Kennedy arrived?
Mrs. GRANT. During that week on Monday--now, it may have been Tuesday,
Dallas Morning News had a picture of a desk similar to this. Looked
like two doors, and little John-John was right here, and the President
was back there, and the President was looking at him, and my brother
had said, “This guy don’t act like a President. He is just like a
regular father.”
This is what my brother enjoyed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your brother talk to you about going to see the parade?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if we can do this. You brought a number of
items here that you would like us to look at. I don’t want to take them
from you without making a record.
Mrs. GRANT. I want to sign that paper for you. That is what I want to
do.
I think you are being very fair, and I am going to tell you this, there
are a lot of things that concern these things, and they are upsetting
me because I can’t tell them, and I can’t leave them here. I know your
time is limited.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try and reassure you this way. I think I am going
to be back in Dallas, probably once more, and I know that you probably
would like to talk to us again, and we will make arrangements to talk
to you at that time.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, if you don’t talk to me, I am going to Washington,
and I am going to do some pretty stiff talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We want to hear everything you have to say. I wonder if
you would want to send to us the particular things that you want to
talk to us about, so we can be prepared to handle them perhaps in a
relatively orderly fashion?
Mrs. GRANT. No, I don’t want it in any mail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t want to send anything to us?
Mrs. GRANT. Not through the mail.
This is the stuff, take it with you.
Mr. BURLESON. That is the post office package that Jack picked up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the material you had printed?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR F. ROBERTSON, JR.
The testimony of Victor F. Robertson, Jr. was taken at 2:05 p.m., on
July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I
am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy.
We have a general procedure of giving a little spiel in advance about
what we are here for, so I will tell you that the Commission has been
set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint
resolution of Congress and we have been directed to investigate and
evaluate and report back to the President all the facts that have to do
with the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey
Oswald.
We have asked you to come here today because in particular you provided
some very helpful information to the FBI.
We want to find out what you can tell us about the events of November
22, 23, and 24. Did you receive a letter from us?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive that 3 days ago or longer?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I received one about 10 days ago just before I left for
San Francisco and the convention. This one is dated the 18th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are entitled to receive a written notice 3 days before
you get here. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask
about the deposition that is about to be taken?
Mr. ROBERTSON. None at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your full name for the court reporter.
Mr. ROBERTSON. Victor F. Robertson, Jr.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you give us your address?
Mr. ROBERTSON. 414 South Willomet Avenue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. ROBERTSON. December 17, 1933.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. ROBERTSON. With WFAA radio and television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do for them?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I am a reporter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a news reporter?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Oddly enough, the only way I can clarify it as a
reporter, I work covering the city hall beat primarily, and political
assignments. I do some work on the air, actually, I am assigned outside
the station just as a reporter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you first met him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I am not sure I can give even an approximate date.
Considerably prior to February of 1963, but how much before, I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times had you seen him before February of 1963?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Perhaps a dozen or two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had it been that you had seen him on those various
occasions?
Mr. ROBERTSON. One of the men who had been working for our station had
an interest in one of the girls who was working in Jack’s club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which girl was that?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t remember her name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which employee was that?
Mr. ROBERTSON. She was one of the girls who, I guess, “danced” for
Jack. All I can remember about her is that she had at one time worked
for Lone Star Cadillac and she quit there and went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the employee who was interested?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Murphy Martin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he employed at the radio station in November?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. He was working for us as our primary newscaster
until February of 1963 when he went with the American Broadcasting Co.
in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave Dallas in 1963?
Mr. ROBERTSON. He left; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited the Carousel with him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right. There were several of us that used to go
up there in a group.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After February of 1963, did you have occasion to see Jack
Ruby?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. Not frequently. I would see him on the street or up
at the city hall or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anybody that you have confused with Jack Ruby?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, where were you when you first heard that
President Kennedy had been shot?
Mr. ROBERTSON. In the phone booth in the Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time of the day was that?
Mr. ROBERTSON. It must have been immediately afterward. I had called
the station. One of the men in the news room, John Allen, answered the
phone, and I told him where I was, and he said, “My God, he’s been
hit.” So far as I know, the phone is still hanging there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I took off on a dead run down Main Street to the
Depository.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the Depository?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Until the call came over the police radio about the
officer having been shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I went out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go out with?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I drove out with Ron Reiland and Hugh Aynesworth of the
Dallas Morning News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you driving the automobile?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; Ron drove.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go out to the scene where Tippit had been shot?
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived out there, what did you find?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Perhaps I should correct that. Actually, we went first
to a location on West--no; East Jefferson Avenue, not quite opposite
the Dudley Hughes Funeral Home where the man who shot Tippit was
believed to be in the building. This was approximately a block and a
half from the site where Tippit was shot. Then we went to the site
where he had been found, and from there to the Texas Theatre.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at the Texas Theatre before Oswald was
brought out?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Oswald being brought out of the theatre?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you observe?
Mr. ROBERTSON. As he was being brought out. He was in the back of the
theatre in the center section, perhaps a quarter to a third of the way
over from the right-hand aisle as you look down toward the screen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go into the theatre?
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right. I was looking through the drapes at the
back over the little railing as they arrested him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive before he was actually taken into custody?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see the police officers doing as you got
there?
Mr. ROBERTSON. It was kind of confused. He rose in his seat and lifted
his arm with his pistol just about simultaneously with the time they
landed all over him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far were you from him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. About three or four rows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would that be?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Possibly 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?
Mr. ROBERTSON. The officer in charge said as they were taking him out
of the theatre, “Don’t let anyone see his face,” or words to that
effect. “Don’t let anyone touch him.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you inside the Texas Theatre before you saw
Oswald rise out of his seat?
Mr. ROBERTSON. A matter of a length of time it takes to walk from the
door to those curtains and pull them apart. It was a matter of seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, just as you pulled apart the curtains, you
were able to see him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, there is a slight delay there. When I arrived
inside the theatre, the main portion of the theatre itself with the
audience, it was still dark. I think the camera equipment must have
been turned off, because I have no recollection of sound, and it was
still dark when I opened the curtains. But the lights came on almost
immediately, and the screen, of course, was blank at that time, and
then again, just seconds, he rose, and they took him in custody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close was your photographer to you?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t have any idea. He was there someplace shooting
his pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he got a picture of that episode?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I thought he did until just the other day when they told
me he didn’t. Apparently the filter in the camera was in the wrong
place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Oswald had said something, if you would
have heard it from where you were standing?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to hear the police officers as they were
standing next to Oswald some 10 feet away from you?
Mr. ROBERTSON. All I can say about that is, if I heard them, what I
heard was not significant, and I don’t recall having heard anything. I
mean, there obviously was noise connected with it, but I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If Oswald had said something and you had heard it, do you
think you would have remembered it?
Mr. ROBERTSON. If it had any significance to me, yes; but I really
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did
you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of
shooting the President?
Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have been there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Oswald was apprehended and taken out
of the theatre?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, we followed the officers and Oswald out of the
theatre and then they put him in the squad car and drove downtown. We
got our own car and returned to the station to leave the photographer,
and then I went on down to the police station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later was it that you arrived at the police
station after Oswald was apprehended?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Judging by normal driving time, half an hour or 45
minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at the police station?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Stood in the hall and asked questions of those people I
knew, and listened to what was going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have dinner that night?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes; one of the fellows in the auto theft bureau bought
some hamburgers and brought them up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never left the building?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; depending on what you mean here. I was not in that
hall all the time. There were times that I was in the new section of
the municipal building adjacent, in the city manager’s office, because
the police department was reporting to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to Elgin Crull?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present at the time when they were reporting to
him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about what kind of action they were
reporting and what sort of control he was exercising over them?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I had the impression that their reports were advisory.
They were keeping him posted as to how the investigation was
progressing. There was one officer and I am not certain which one, who
talked rather loud, and Mr. Crull had to hold the phone some distance
from his ear in order to be comfortable. And it was as a result of that
that I learned that they were definitely going to file both charges
against Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was that you learned that,
approximately?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Approximately 3:15 in the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the charges were not charged against Oswald until much
later that night, isn’t that right?
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you place it at approximately 3:15 in the
afternoon that the decision to file had been made?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know how I placed it. This I can’t correlate in
regard to anything else. If I could--now I assume I must have looked at
a clock about that minute, because there has never been any question as
to what the time was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you making notes as you were at the city hall in
following out your assignment?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reporting back to anybody who was making any
record of what you were observing?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I was reporting back to Mr. Walter Evans of our station,
who at that time was the radio news director, keeping him advised of
the information that I gathered, some of which we published and some of
which we did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated when you talked to the FBI that you saw Jack
Ruby sometime on November 22.
Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time at which you saw him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, it was after 3:15. I can’t place the time
accurately. I have tried to do so in my own mind. I am reasonably
certain before I had this opportunity to eat, which my best estimate
is after 7 o’clock, and before 8 o’clock. As I say, it was definitely
after 3:15 after I had learned about the other. Between this time, I am
at a loss.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place it in terms of the press conference that
Henry Wade held on Friday night?
Mr. ROBERTSON. It was before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much before that?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, I got the impression it was a considerable time
before that, although time seemed very long in that afternoon and
evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when Henry Wade and Chief Curry walked out
of Captain Fritz’ office and the reporters crowded around and the
decision was made to go down to the assembly room? Were you present at
that time?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I was not. I was on the telephone in another room
and I didn’t see Mr. Wade come out of Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after you got off that telephone, what did you do?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I learned that they were holding the press conference
down in the basement, but I did something else first rather than go
down there, because we had a man down there on television. I don’t
recall just what else it was, but I had something I wanted to check on,
so subsequently I went downstairs and I talked with Henry after the
thing was over, briefly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would there be any possibility that you saw Jack Ruby
between the time you got off the telephone call and went down to the
basement?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s try to work backwards. Before you made this
telephone call, do you recall what you had been doing? What did you
make the telephone call about?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I have no recollection of that at all. It was one of a
series of telephone calls that I can’t even give you any idea of how
many, which was just a continual feeding of information into Walter
Evans, and then trying to determine between ourselves which of this was
valuable enough to publish and something that I would report on and
what we ought to sit with until we got more confirmation, and that sort
of thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to pinpoint time at all between the time you
had your sandwich or hamburger and the time you made that telephone
call?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Not in my own mind. Perhaps there is. If it is any help
to you, if you have information on time which can go with this, it may
narrow it down. It was before the police department changed for the
first time their shift on guard at Captain Fritz’ door. It was, I am
reasonably certain, during the first shift of the two officers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the officers who were on guard?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I do not. I believe--let me stress that word because
I may be wrong about this, that it was after the first session of
interrogation in Captain Fritz’ office. Whether it was while Oswald was
upstairs, or after he had been brought back, I am not certain, but I
believe it was after the first session of interrogation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there any question in your mind about that man
that you did see was Jack Ruby up there on the floor?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I have no doubts.