through the telephone book and I went along Oak Cliff Avenue, and I
even went to the city directory.” Now, whether I had said something to
him earlier or then, or what, but I figured that would be the police.
It is in the back of my mind. I said something, whether I was telling
him to go, or he told me he had been, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he telling this bit about?
Mrs. GRANT. He was telling, mostly he talked, I would say, 15 minutes
anyway to Stanley Kaufman, his attorney here in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About the city directory?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know about that, but I know we talked about it. He
said he was looking for Bernard Weissman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?
Mrs. GRANT. You messed up on a lot of stuff that went on Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take place in your presence?
Mrs. GRANT. This conversation was made in front of me, and this is what
I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you missed anything on Friday that took place in your
presence?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Betty Gouchuin came with the newspaper on Friday
morning at 10 a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We covered that.
Mrs. GRANT. Even the second time after the conversation, and while he
wasn’t there, I read the darn thing, and I am going to tell you the
truth, I am not smart enough to detect if there is any animosity. It is
like we sent wheat to Russia.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk----
Mrs. GRANT. He asked me did I see the ad, and I said, “Yes, but I
didn’t like it. I looked at it.” And since he has already been fed up
and fouled up in the newspaper office, when he came Friday he brought
me back the morning paper and the evening paper with “The President is
dead,” and he said, “Look at it.” He said different things like, “Any
other city would be honored to have him visit them. Of all the cities
in the United States to have the President to come here.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back to Saturday with this understanding that if
there is anything that took place in your presence or that Jack said to
you on Saturday that we haven’t covered already? We are finished with
Friday. When you read this transcript again, if there is anything that
comes to your mind in reading that transcript, write it out and send it
to us. But let’s go on to Saturday. Let’s stay on Saturday. Now, the
telephone calls, you said he called Stanley Kaufman?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he talk to Stanley Kaufman about that you heard?
Mrs. GRANT. He went to the post office, and he was still talking about
these pictures, and he said he couldn’t find a name like that anywhere.
He implied that this was not a Jewish man that did it. It was a
gentile, and he just wanted to get the Jews in trouble.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He implied that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually say that?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I could tell from the way he worded. You don’t have to
say a lot of things if you know a person as well as I know Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at that conclusion on Saturday when you
were talking to him, or is that some conclusion you----
Mrs. GRANT. This was Friday. Well, no, I got to thinking that (pause),
I had said this to him. “It could be a gentile with a name just like
that,” and didn’t think anything of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you suggest to him that it might be a gentile?
Mrs. GRANT. I said in words that it might be a gentile, with a name
like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think that?
Mrs. GRANT. Because I know a lot of Swedes, like the name Swanson, or
Peter. I know a lot of Jewish people named Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you the idea that the Weissman ad was put in by
a gentile?
Mrs. GRANT. Nothing any more than I was just trying to cover--not cover
up--maybe in my subconscious mind I didn’t want a Jew to be connected
with it either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack suggest that to you, or you to him, first?
Mrs. GRANT. This is it. We both feel--we don’t have the feeling that
anyone would be such a low life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember which one said it. We felt that way. We
talked about it. I could have said a lot of things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, what do you remember saying to Jack about the
Weissman ad on Saturday afternoon or evening?
Mrs. GRANT. I asked him, I said, “Did you look in the city directory?”
I probably indicated stuff like he is a Commie, and by Saturday he
already changed. I figured I talked about Birchers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, on Friday when you talked with Jack about
the Weissman ad, did you suggest to him, or was there any talk that
Weissman might not be a Jew?
Mrs. GRANT. He was a commie straight with Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday when you talked about the ad; is that right?
Mrs. GRANT. I mean, he implied little things like that. After all, it
is my brother. We have a right to have private conversations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. GRANT. I maybe even said, “Jew” to rile up everybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first talked with Mr. Burleson about this, did
you tell him what you have just been telling us here?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. If he remembers, he is doing better than I
am doing. If he thinks I lied, or I am not telling the truth, I don’t
know--did I leave something out?
Mr. BURLESON. Not that I know.
Mrs. GRANT. Saturday afternoon he brought me three pictures, and he is
reading them, and this is on the paper, “Impeach Earl Warren,” and
he thinks this is commies and Birchers. That is when it all came, to
remember about Birchers, and I know very little about them, and I know
less about communism.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention any literature by H. L. Hunt?
Mrs. GRANT. He had that literature for some time. I think he had that
literature a couple of weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about that literature after?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he hated him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hated whom?
Mrs. GRANT. H. L. Hunt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he mention this to you?
Mrs. GRANT. He don’t have to say he hates. I know my brother. If a man
looks at his wife, he don’t have to tell me. He implies he hates her.
This was something--he went someplace and he told me something that,
I think we read this in the paper, I will be honest about it, that at
the World’s Fair they don’t want them in. I don’t know where I got the
information.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any radio script he got from H. L. Hunt?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the day I was in his car, he took me from
the hospital, and I think he had it in there before I even went to the
hospital, I don’t know. It seems to me in October or September I seen
something that my brother didn’t like in Life Line. I can’t use the
words for this machine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you remember any other phone calls that he made on
Saturday from your apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. He made a lot of them. He was there until almost 8 o’clock,
or 10 after 8. He did not leave before 7:30, and he was out of my house
before 8:30, but he spent a good 4 hours Saturday, and he slept a
little bit. He said he hadn’t slept for two or three nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call Tom O’Grady from your apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. He may have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that?
Mrs. GRANT. In the back of my mind, he may have; yes. Now, I don’t
know. You know what, I am going to tell you something. I wasn’t too,
what do you call it when you can’t recall your thoughts--it was 2
terrible days. It was the worst days for me than a lot of people,
because I was taking pills.
Mr. BURLESON. Amnesia?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I was more like in a trance. I was sick physically. I
was taking these pills. The shock of the President knocked me off gear.
I thought the world was coming to an end. My brother sitting there like
a broken man crying. All this went until days for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call Ralph Paul from your apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I think he did. He may have even called Friday, I
don’t know. If it is on my bill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Ralph?
Mrs. GRANT. No. I think I called him that following Sunday, the 24th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t call him on Friday or Saturday?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I had very little business with Ralph Paul. Not that I
remember. It would have to be an exceptionally good reason, and I don’t
know what reason it would have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack receive a telephone call from Little Lynn while
he was at your apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that I can recall. The phone did ring, but I couldn’t
say who it was. But I remember the Friday night, because Andy called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the telephone call from somebody asking Jack
for some money on Saturday night?
Mrs. GRANT. I remember I spoke with Leonard Wood about he wanted some
money. Either I picked up the phone--I thought it was Friday night.
Now, if it wasn’t, I am quite mixed up. In fact, until recently, I
forgot about giving him $10 until Sunday morning, and this only came to
me recently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, on Saturday night from your apartment, did
Jack call a man named Lawrence Meyers?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Lawrence Meyers?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Who is he? I would like to know who he is. Someone else
asked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A friend of Jack’s from Chicago.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know who he was. Was he in Chicago, the fellow?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; he was in Dallas.
Mrs. GRANT. I never heard the name, believe me, so help me God. I don’t
even know who you are talking about. I know Lenny Patrick. I know who
he is, and I haven’t seem him in 35 years. We are very well acquainted!
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack----
Mrs. GRANT. Who is this guy, a racketeer? I want to know. I want to
find out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is not a racketeer. He is a perfectly legitimate man,
but a friend of Jack’s.
Mrs. GRANT. Who is he? I want to find out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He sells sports goods.
Mrs. GRANT. That is more like my brother’s friends. I once had lunch
with a judge. That doesn’t make me a judge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think I am accusing you of anything?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I like you, but I want you to try to understand that
we are not children. If we were 20 years of age, we only have many
acquaintances. Jack and I traveled a great deal, and we met many
people. Jack has a vast amount of knowledge of people’s names. That is
more than I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say this, that in the testimony we have been
taking today, I don’t think there has been any suggestion of any
accusations--I have simply been trying to find out from you what you
did.
(U.S. Attorney H. Barefoot Sanders enters room.)
Mrs. GRANT (to Mr. Sanders). If you hear hollering, it is me. You want
to shut me down and not let me explain this. When you run a business
like we have, people come up and, you don’t go up and ask what business
are you in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Look, you don’t even have to go into this, as far as I
am concerned, because all I want to find out about is what you did on
Saturday night and Sunday, and I only mentioned Mr. Meyers’ name, not
to suggest he was a racketeer or anything like that.
Mrs. GRANT. I would like to know who he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I have told you.
Mrs. GRANT. I appreciate it, and I want to thank you, because someone
else asked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will give Mr. Burleson his address. In fact, I think
Mr. Burleson already has his address.
Mrs. GRANT. How come you don’t ask Harry Rosenthal why he goes to Las
Vegas every weekend? I want to know why you don’t ask him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s stay on the track.
Mrs. GRANT. If he came to visit me, would it make me a gambler? I wish
I had money to gamble. I like to go to the racetracks.
Mr. BURLESON. No; you don’t, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, when Jack left your apartment on Saturday
night, did he say where he was going?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going?
Mrs. GRANT. When I first told the story, I had forgotten about his
saying he was going to the club, something to talk to Andy, or to go to
the garage about the money again. It had to do with leaving money again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s----
Mrs. GRANT. But this is what he had in mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back on this, now.
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t eat at my house this Saturday. In fact, he spent
so much time, all he drank was juice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this money thing that he had to take care of
downtown, how did that come up?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, you see, you have confused me. I don’t know if that
was Leonard Wood’s deal or anybody else, but it seems to me in the back
of my mind there was someone else that needed money, and I don’t know
who to put the finger on that asked, because with all the help, and it
was something to do with his club. At least that is what it seems to
me. In one of those conversations, either Friday or Saturday, he said,
“You stay there until 9 o’clock.” On Saturday night, it could not have
been Larry, because when Jack came in the afternoon, he told me, “Guess
what, Larry left me a note and took some money. He is mad at me.” And I
said, “Why?” He said, “Because I didn’t leave him money, or something,
I didn’t buy dogfood.”
He said, “Well, don’t you take money,” or something. I heard this. This
is what Jack told me, something about dogfood. And I said, “Why did he
leave?” He said, “Well, after we took the pictures, I told him I am
going to be up, I feel good, I am going to go here,” and Jack talked
like that, and I do too. But instead of that, he went home, because
this is the morning of the 23d after he was up all night. Well, I
don’t know if he slept, because he didn’t get home till 2:30 or 3 or
4. He called Larry and got him out of bed, and they went to take the
pictures, and took these pictures sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is something you didn’t see?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They told you? Jack told you all this when?
Mrs. GRANT. George told me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did George tell you that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know when I saw him. It was the next time,
but I don’t remember when I saw him. I didn’t see him that Sunday, that
I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was sometime after Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you about this?
Mrs. GRANT. The pictures, I saw myself, three pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when Jack came up to your apartment
Saturday afternoon, what did you spend most of your time doing?
Talking, or watching television or what?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he didn’t watch it at all. I know he didn’t. In fact,
he fell asleep for over an hour on my bed. This is the first time he
has ever done that. He noticed I got a new spread a month and a half
ago, and since it cost $20.50 apiece, I have twin beds, he didn’t even
pull the top down, and there is a big oil spot from his head, and I was
going to give him hell on Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he showed up at your place did he go in
there and rest?
Mrs. GRANT. He came about 20 to 4. He was there almost to 8, or 10
after 8. It seems to me there were many hours. He talked and called
Stanley and took the phone in the bedroom. He laid down, and then got
up, and when he left, he told me he was going home to eat. I think he
called George.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant, let’s see, maybe we can pinpoint when
he was sleeping there. How long after he woke up did he leave your
apartment? About how much time elapsed?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say maybe an hour. Maybe 40 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had he been in your apartment before he went to
sleep?
Mrs. GRANT. A few hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then he didn’t sleep very long?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say he slept?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. I think I actually fell asleep myself. I
hadn’t slept well for a couple of nights. Hadn’t slept all Friday
night, and neither did I sleep Saturday during the night, or either
Thursday night. That was the reason I would take one of these pills.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant, if the other evidence showed that Jack
arrived down at the Carousel Club about 11 o’clock----
Mrs. GRANT. The date?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Listen to me.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know nothing about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, listen.
Mrs. GRANT. Can I catch you up a little before that?
Mr. BURLESON. Let him ask questions, and then you can fill it in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish. If the evidence showed that he left and
arrived down at the Carousel Club about 11 o’clock at night, and that
he received a telephone call about money----
Mrs. GRANT. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At about 10:30 at night.
Mrs. GRANT. Not from my place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It couldn’t have been at your place?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Will you listen to me? Don’t forget--Friday night we
had all of the delicatessen stuff. This is Saturday. I did not make one
thing. He asked me what I had got to eat. I said, “Same thing that you
brought yesterday.” That didn’t satisfy him. This is in the back of my
mind. He may have called his apartment and George was there, because he
made calls. He wasn’t home. I don’t know where he was for 2 hours or 2½
hours.
He was home, it seems to me, after 10. I would say 10:15. He said he
took a shower and was getting dressed, and he made liver and onions,
or liver. George had bought liver. Whether it was prepared before, or
whether it was raw, and Jack had to fry it, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?
Mrs. GRANT. He was telling me, and he said, “Ask me what I ate?” I
said, “I don’t feel like eating. I ate enough for six people, just
little bites.” And I said, “Did you eat?” And he said, “Yes George
brought a lot of stuff.” George is a Jewish housewife, in my estimation.
Jack called me from his house. He said he had liver. And he was very
depressed, and he was droopy depressed. We get high and low, which you
probably know. He was so low, I said, “Go see somebody.” And he said,
“I don’t want to.” And I said, “You are depressed. Go see somebody.”
Well, I don’t know, I mean go see somebody that you like. Now, I didn’t
know this then. I did not know this Sunday. I found out maybe a week
later or two, I don’t know when. I found out he went to Bob Norton of
the Pago-Pago Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time in which you told him to go see
somebody?
Mrs. GRANT. After 10 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you arrive at that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I knew it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, he was watching television. Was it getting late in
the evening and he had been gone a couple of hours?
Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t after 11 o’clock, and it wasn’t after 12 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as early as 9 o’clock?
Mrs. GRANT. You know, this sounds crazy. I think he went home and slept
a little bit too. I think that is what he told me. I may be wrong,
but it seems to me that he could have slept a little bit. And he is a
very slow dresser. Anybody that probably can get dressed like in the
Army, how they ever tolerated him, because it is hustle bustle, eager
beaver--it could take him 3 hours to shave and dress, the way he wants
to look like, because he stops and make a phone call, but he was very
slow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you at all about Breck Wall that Saturday?
Mrs. GRANT. I think he made a call to him Friday. Was it?
Mr. BURLESON. Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about Wall?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you about Wall?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he is out of town.
Mr. BURLESON. Can I give you some testimony. It might shed some light
that might help her?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. In all sincerity, I am trying to
remember. I have a good memory, but I have been sick, and I have been
taking pills, and this is the thing that bothers me.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me say this into the record. I am sure the Commission
knows Breck Wall is a client of mine who was running a show at the
Adolphus Hotel here in Dallas, and he closed down because of the
assassination, and he went down to Galveston to visit his parents. And
Jack called Breck Wall at night on Saturday night.
Mrs. GRANT. That I remember, Galveston.
Mr. BURLESON. And was very, very upset.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say late, what time did he call?
Mr. BURLESON. Between 9 and 11, as best I recall, because he called
me the next day when Jack was charged, and asked me to go help Jack,
and he told me that he talked to him the night before, and he was very
upset, and had just seen it on television, and wanted to see if I could
help in any way.
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he told me--I know the word Galveston, and I
didn’t know anybody in Galveston, and he said he talked to Breck. Don’t
ask me what he said, I don’t know. I don’t know if he was at the club
or at home. Where was he?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, after he left your apartment, and called you
from his own apartment and you told him----
Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you, I didn’t hear from him for at least 2
hours, it seems to me, from the time he left my home Saturday night, at
least 2 hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said, when he left your house, he said he had to go
downtown and give somebody some money. You said a couple of hours later
he called you and you told him go see somebody?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, are you sure that when he left your house he
said he was going to give somebody some money, or did he tell you that
in the telephone call that he made a couple of hours later?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems that he said something about money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the telephone call, or when he got to your
house?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me when he left the house, while he was at the
house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the telephone call that he made in which you told
him to go see somebody, did he call you again?
Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, let’s get this right. After what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the telephone call?
Mrs. GRANT. After 10 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. Sure, he called me again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he call you again?
Mrs. GRANT. It was almost a quarter to 1, or 20 to 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he?
Mrs. GRANT. I thought he was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mrs. GRANT. He asked me how I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was reading Reader’s Digest, and he asked me was
I watching television. Yes, I was watching, but I wasn’t listening.
And he said, “What else? What was happening?” And I said, “Nothing.”
And I said, “I think they signed off.” And they got terrible; they got
terrible music on. What I meant to say was, very depressing music. I
said it was from 11, only memorial, and it was some singing, I think,
and I go on watching him.
No; I don’t say I was watching, but they turned it off. I think, all
the stations went off early.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he called you this time, did he say anything to you
other than just ask you how you were?
Mrs. GRANT. I can’t remember all the conversation. He asked me if I
called home or something, did I call somebody, it seems to me, but I am
confused on Friday and Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that this telephone call we are now talking
about occurred at 1 o’clock Sunday morning, or could it have been 1
o’clock Saturday morning?
Mrs. GRANT. No. [He could of called me both nights; at that time.] The
last time I talked to my brother previously to him shooting Oswald was
close to 1 o’clock, was more like 20 to 1, or a quarter of 1--it was
after 12:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, because he says to me, “What are you doing?”
My trouble, I have a habit, and this watch stays right there on this
long table, and I watch television when it is on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did that telephone call last?
Mrs. GRANT. Not too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say to you that he was at his apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. No, but it was very quiet. I felt he was there alone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate to you he was going to go anyplace after
that telephone call?
Mrs. GRANT. No. He could have been at a booth, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate anything about the Weinsteins to you in
that telephone call?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention the Weinsteins to you on Saturday night?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Friday we talked about it. We talked about clubs, and I
am sure in the back of his mind he referred to the, what is it, Branch
office club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about doing something to Oswald?
Mrs. GRANT. Never even mentioned his name. Never even watched only the
one time Friday. He took a look and said something, “What a creep.”
He didn’t watch television from my house. Now, I don’t mean he didn’t
watch television. If he did, it wasn’t that it would have--where he
sits, he don’t face it like I sit opposite it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the next thing you heard from him, heard about Jack
was that he had shot Oswald?
Mrs. GRANT. May I go back to you and tell you all the things that
happened Sunday morning? Is that what you want to know?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure I do. Did you remain at your apartment all
Sunday morning?
Did you remain at your apartment all Sunday morning?